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Autogyro identification

Old 12-27-2006, 04:09 PM
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Default Autogyro identification

As a fan of unusual aircraft, when I saw this bird hanging on the LHS's ceiling, I had to add it to my hangar. Can anyone identify this model and/or it's full scale prototype?

Also, this is my first autogyro, and would like any suggestions/tips/tricks on what size power plant I should use as flying hints/suggestions.

Wingspan is 47 1/2", rotorspan is 48"...not sure the airframe weight, but it's quite light.

THANKS!

shv2sail
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Old 12-27-2006, 04:34 PM
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Default RE: Autogyro identification

This looks like a deBolt Autogyro. I believe plans are available from M.A.N. etc.

Bill
Old 12-27-2006, 07:11 PM
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Default RE: Autogyro identification

Hi,

I agree, it looks like the last project Hal deBolt worked on and I think it did get published. Anyhow, it's designed to be a trainer for autogyro pilots. You start by flying with just the wing and NO rotor. After you are comfortable you add the rotor and get used to flying with the rotor. If the aircraft has survived to this point remove the wing and fly with rotor only. You are now and accomplished gyro nut.

The prototype that Hal built, I think, had a size 45 engine.

Phil
Old 12-28-2006, 10:09 AM
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Default RE: Autogyro identification

Thanks Bill and Phil! Phil, I actually picked this gyro up at a shop down in your area - Noell's in Wildwood...nice folks, nice shop. Was there visiting my inlaws and always make it a point to 'ceiling shop' there as there are always good deals hanging around.

Thanks for the identification and advice...as long as the weather holds up here, I'll be on my way to being a gyro nut soon!

Steve
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Old 01-03-2007, 03:32 PM
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Default RE: Autogyro identification

Here's a photo that you posted a while back, Phil. Is this Hal's prototype you were referring to? It looks very similar to the model I currently have.

HOWEVER, it looks like it (the crashed gyro) has cyclic control...where as my model does NOT. Will it still fly without cyclic control and no wing, or will it always need a wing to fly? If no wing is needed, where does the roll control come from?

Thanks-

Steve
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Old 01-03-2007, 06:39 PM
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Default RE: Autogyro identification

Hi Steve,

Yes, that was Hal's gyro. It did not have cyclic control. As I remember, this model had a head that would tilt, side to side, for roll control and conventional elevator.

My recommendation would be to fly the model with the wing and no rotor, then remove the wing and install the rotor. I think Hal had a good idea, but getting it to balance right with both the wing and the rotor is going to be very difficult and it's not going to accomplish anything. If you set it up to fly with just the wing and then balance it correctly with just the rotor you should not have any problem. When you suspend the gyro by the rotor shaft, the fuselage should nose down at least 10 degrees and put about 4 degrees down thrust in the motor.

Good luck,

Phil
Old 01-04-2007, 09:11 AM
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Default RE: Autogyro identification

Thanks Phil...I can see it's a 'tilt' control now on the crashed photo. Just to be certain (as much as I can be), without tilt, cyclic or any other control on my gyro's rotor, will I still have enough 3-axis control with just the conventional rudder and elevator? I haven't seen many RC gyros with a rotor head that only rotates (no control input at all).

This should be an interesting experiment!

Steve
Old 01-04-2007, 10:39 AM
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Default RE: Autogyro identification

Hi Steve,

You would not want to try and fly it if it doesn't tilt the head for roll control.

If you went to a three blade rotor and build in a fixed 8 degrees of coning angle and increased the size of the rudder and you are a real good pilot, you might be able to fly it?

However, I think it would be easier and it would fly better if you added the tilt head. Also, use a three blade rotor.

Phil
Old 01-04-2007, 10:45 AM
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Default RE: Autogyro identification

Hi Steve,

I just looked at your gyro picture again, and I think it has a teering head. I have had no experience with that type of head but I have seen them fly. It's possible, if you added the tilt head control it may fly OK.

Phi
Old 01-04-2007, 01:57 PM
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Default RE: Autogyro identification

Thanks, Phil. The rotor blades are free to rotate vertically (a few degrees) at the grips...is this a teetering head? What is the best way to add lateral rotation to the rotor- piano hinge and servo? How many degrees should the head tilt to either side?

Thanks again...I'm glad I didn't try to fly this bird before talking to you!

Steve
Old 01-04-2007, 04:37 PM
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Default RE: Autogyro identification

Ok, after some more research (like I wanted to do real work today) on what a teetering head is, I've determined that my model does not have a teetering head afterall, but a flapping head, as each blade can flap independently from the other and are not fixed together like a teeter-totter.

ALSO in my digging, I came across some other 3 channel designs - like the 'Whistler' that have NO tilting, cyclic or other rotor control - just 2 spinning blades, much like mine. What I'm not so sure of, however, is whether it'll be stable enough in roll without the wing attached as I read in one thread that most thought the Whistler would not fly without the wing attached...though the 'Giant Whisler' may due to flexable head design. WHEW...very confusing.

I may just get the epoxy and monokote in 'ready' mode and go flying...see what it'll do!
Old 01-05-2007, 09:40 AM
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Default RE: Autogyro identification

Steve,

It's almost certain to crash as I helped Hal many times and he was never successful. The rudder is too small and two blades is not as stable as three unless it has cyclic. It would be better with three blades but if you do try it, lock those two blades up to create a coning angle and you may get lucky. Without the coning angle and no head tilt the torque from the engine will roll it over as the rudder is too small to compensate.

Phil
Old 01-11-2007, 12:50 PM
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Default RE: Autogyro identification


ORIGINAL: floridagyro

Hi Steve,

Yes, that was Hal's gyro. It did not have cyclic control. As I remember, this model had a head that would tilt, side to side, for roll control and conventional elevator.

Umm..
Hey Phil,
tilting head is cyclic.
You don't have to have a swashplate to have cyclic. Tilting the spindle
is cyclic.

mickey
Old 01-11-2007, 07:15 PM
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Default RE: Autogyro identification

Hi Mickey,

I agree, you could call it cyclic, as cyclic controls the autogyro's pitch and bank attitude . Other than the defination that is where it ends.
Mechanically the control is completely different between the head on a DC gyro vs. one of your gyros which uses a heli style blade pitch control.
My point was to explain to Steve that Hal deBolt's gyro didn't have the type of cylic control as we all know, and not to start a debate on what was considered 'cyclic control'

Anyhow, your point was well taken, and if I ever have time to build one, and if your are still producing, I'm going to have one of your cyclic gyros.

Phil
Old 01-11-2007, 08:14 PM
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ORIGINAL: floridagyro

Hi Mickey,

I agree, you could call it cyclic, as cyclic controls the autogyro's pitch and bank attitude . Other than the defination that is where it ends.
Mechanically the control is completely different between the head on a DC gyro vs. one of your gyros which uses a heli style blade pitch control.
My point was to explain to Steve that Hal deBolt's gyro didn't have the type of cylic control as we all know, and not to start a debate on what was considered 'cyclic control'

Anyhow, your point was well taken, and if I ever have time to build one, and if your are still producing, I'm going to have one of your cyclic gyros.

Phil
Agreed the mechanics are completely different, but the same result takes place.
When you tilt the spindle you make the blades change pitch cyclicly around the
circle. Check out Igor Bensen's book where he describes this.
Swashplate is not the only way to do cyclic.
You can also do cyclic pitch with a tilting through shaft and
a pitch spider arm as well. Kaman does cyclic on their helicopters
with a servo tab on the blades.
In my brain there is swashplate cyclic, tilting spindle cyclic,
spider cyclic and servo tab cyclic.
To me to say that it doesn't have cyclic pitch means it has a no cyclic
pitch of any kind, like the Whistler. To say that if it doesn't have a swashplate it doesn't
have cyclic seems misleading.

mickey
Old 01-11-2007, 10:40 PM
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Default RE: Autogyro identification

Hi Steve,

Sorry I gave you bum information!![&o] Your gyro does have cyclic control, just not the type with a swashplate. Hmmm, hope I got that right!!

Phil
Old 01-11-2007, 10:55 PM
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ORIGINAL: floridagyro

Hi Steve,

Sorry I gave you bum information!![&o] Your gyro does have cyclic control, just not the type with a swashplate. Hmmm, hope I got that right!!

Phil
Right on the money.
Old 01-16-2007, 05:22 PM
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Default RE: Autogyro identification

Uh, right. After that interesting debate and clarification I almost hate to say this, but my aircraft does not have cyclic of any nature...the head is fixed like a Whistler's.

EVEN BETTER YET, after reading through the multiple pages of Mickey's dissertation on all things gyro over on the 'other' site (ALL YOUR INFO IS MUCH APPRECIATED, BY THE WAY), I went home and inspected this thing in my hangar. It looks like the spindle is dead-nuts vertical to the chord of the wing and long axis of the fuselage...it doesn't angle aft at all. SO, with all the discussion of coning, and adverse roll from opposite yaw and aft spindle tilt, where does a gyro with NO spindle tilt fit in? Besides permanently hanging from my ceiling?
Old 01-16-2007, 05:37 PM
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ORIGINAL: shv2sail



EVEN BETTER YET, after reading through the multiple pages of Mickey's dissertation on all things gyro over on the 'other' site (ALL YOUR INFO IS MUCH APPRECIATED, BY THE WAY), I went home and inspected this thing in my hangar. It looks like the spindle is dead-nuts vertical to the chord of the wing and long axis of the fuselage...it doesn't angle aft at all. SO, with all the discussion of coning, and adverse roll from opposite yaw and aft spindle tilt, where does a gyro with NO spindle tilt fit in? Besides permanently hanging from my ceiling?
The dissertation thanks you. Just doing my part to stem the flood of confusing information
I think the thing you have was basically an airplane with a beanie that provided decoration.
It might have provided some lift, but I think most would agree it would never fly as a
gyrocopter without the wing.
However it is historic because it was a Pappy Debolt design, but it's historic in
an Edsel, Yugo, or Delorean kinda way.
They are neat to look at in a museum but a
2004 Hyundai makes a much better daily driver.
If you want to fly it with the wing it will probably do that.
If you want to take the wing off and try to make it fly as a gyrocopter
I think you're wasting your time (just my opinion, which some people tend to bash me
personally for these days). Just get a kit and be flying happily in a
day or so.

mick
Old 01-16-2007, 07:17 PM
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Default RE: Autogyro identification

It is kinda neat to look at, and since it was one of Pappy last designs, it'll be a nice conversation piece in my basement hangar. I may even fly it (wing ON, that is) just to say it flew then retire it to hangar queen status.

Thanks for all the input (and the WEALTH of shared knowledge, Mick). Looks like I'll be picking up a gyro kit...I'm hooked already and I haven't even flown one!

Steve

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