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Welcome to the FMA Direct / Lithium Power Solution Forum

Old 07-14-2005, 09:14 PM
  #51  
rammar
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

I like my triton charger. It does all that. But I just noticed the settings for Ah only go to 2.5 and I just got a KOK2000-15c-3s2p 11.1V 4000ma Lipoly and wonder if I set the Triton at 2.5 and 11.1 w/ thermal probe will it charge this monster? Anyone know? Rick
Old 07-17-2005, 12:01 PM
  #52  
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

Question from a LiPo newbie. I'm just finishing up a conversion of an old Oly II sailplane to electric assist. Power system is an MP Jet 28/20-7 brushless outrunner motor, CC Phoenix 35 ESC, Graupner 14-9.5 folder and 3-cell Kokam 2000 15C pack. According to my Whatt Meter, at full throttle I'm drawing 36 amps from a fully charged pack with this setup. Expecting about a 20-second full throttle motor run for launch. My question is... will this draw of 36 amps damage the LiPo pack which has a max output of 30 amps? Thanks for your help on this.

Bob
Old 07-17-2005, 05:27 PM
  #53  
Fred Marks
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum


ORIGINAL: cub driver

Question from a LiPo newbie. I'm just finishing up a conversion of an old Oly II sailplane to electric assist. Power system is an MP Jet 28/20-7 brushless outrunner motor, CC Phoenix 35 ESC, Graupner 14-9.5 folder and 3-cell Kokam 2000 15C pack. According to my Whatt Meter, at full throttle I'm drawing 36 amps from a fully charged pack with this setup. Expecting about a 20-second full throttle motor run for launch. My question is... will this draw of 36 amps damage the LiPo pack which has a max output of 30 amps? Thanks for your help on this.

Bob
Bob

Assuming that your current profile is continuous for the duration of each run and for the fulkl capacity of the battery; Yes, you will harm the pack or at least have short life. If you keep the burst to about six seconds, the pack will be OK. The KOK 2000 will do the best job of any un-paralleled pack in the 2000 to 2100 mAh class. The ideal pack for you would be the KOK 3200 which would not be fazed by the load you need. However, since you have made the investment in the KOK 2000/15C, the least expensive alternative is a second 3S1P pack of KOK 2000 plus a parallel interconnect module. The material below was just drafted to go in our web site soon, so you might as well review it and give me your questions and comments at fred@fmadirect.com

A SHORT GUIDE TO USE OF FMA LI PO BATTRIES

This is designed to be a short guide. Back up information in much greater volume is available in the FMA Direct Li Po Compendium at www.fmadireect.com. An example or two will help you to see how this works.

Operating Li Po batteries. Motors, and ESCs is not unlike operating a model engine. The engine overheats due to overload or lack of proper lubrication and is ruined. The uninitiated may put too large a propeller on the engine to over load it and, again, cause it to overheat, seize and be ruined.

SEE ATTACHED DISCHARGE CURVES FOR THE KOK 2000/15C

Think of the curve above as you would the instruments for an aircraft engine. In full - scale aviation, engine gauges have zones for proper operation marked on them. In particular, rpm and temperature have arcs of yellow where operation for specified short terms such as take - off are marked in yellow. Normal cruise settings are marked with a narrow white arc. The absolute maximum that must never be exceeded has a red line. Thus, most are familiar with the popular term about something being “red lined”.

A few simple rules to follow

FIRST AND FOREMOST: Avoid selecting your pack so that it has to operate at the maximum allowable discharge rate.
1. Find out how much voltage and current your system will require before you pick a pack. The maximum is set by the spec for the motor and ESC you choose. Let us assume that you are going to use a brushless motor and ESC that can deliver a maximum of 30 amps at 16.8V. That will require a 4S pack to deliver 16.8V. If the motor/ESC can handle a maximum of 500 watts, then maximum current drain would be 30 amps (16.8 X 30 = 504 watts)
2. In general, it is best to use the highest voltage your motor and ESC specify. That means that current is lowered and flight time will be the longest you can get.
3. Use LIPOCALC II to help you find the pack that fits the need best. Input the maximum voltage and current you expect to use and record the results. Now reduce the “throttle setting” to 70% and record the results.
4. Select the pack you need based on the maximum current (100% throttle) that will be demanded.
5. Study the discharge curves for the cell that is used in the pack identified by LIPOCALC II. Let’s say it is a 4S1P pack of the KOK 2000 used for the chart above.
6. LII Po Calc II computes that a 4S1P pack will deliver the needed wattage at full throttle. The 30 amps draw = 15C for the KOK 2000, i.e. right on the “redline” in the chart ABOVE. That is OK for a second or two at a time. If one ran at 100% throttle for the full flight, the pack would reach a temperature of 158 Deg F and that is too warm.
7. By reducing throttle to 70% to place a 10C load on the pack, flight time is extended to five minutes, 42 seconds. More importantly, pack temperature is reduced to 113 Deg F. THAT IS SIGNIFICANT!
8. If you choose to fly longer, Li Po Calc II shows you the options as you let it calculate. Selecting a 2P pack of the KOK 2000 increases flight time to about 11 minutes. This also means the pack will be operating at 30/4AH = 7.5C maximum even at full throttle and temperature would be 97 Deg F. Thus, throttle setting is no longer critical.
9. Set the cut-off above 2.5V, or nearer 3V in most situations.

Secondly: Stay out of the “zone of temptation.”

For aircraft, the “zone of temptation” is usually entered by repeatedly restarting after the first cut-off occurs. As with many rules, there is an exception. Some Kokam HC cells, when operated right up against the maximum allowable discharge are a little above the 3V line. A sudden application of throttle in that situation could cause a motor cut-off. Thus, the cut-off for the KOK 700, 1500 and 2AH should be set for 2.8V. In general, experience is showing that most airplanes have stopped flying before cut-off occurs, so this may be a moot point.

Gas Gauging using the discharge curve data

Please refer to the discharge curves above for the discussion of gas gauging.

1. Most OEM applications of Li Pos such as cell phones use a “gas gauge” to inform the user of the status of the battery.
2. RC applications are so price competitive that the added cost of individual pack gauging is not practical.
3. However, if the user has a digital voltmeter (DVM) a good emulation can be had.
4. The receiver and servos and ESC current without the motor running approximate the 0.2C load at which the cell is rated as shown in the 0.2C curve above. The discharge curve for the pack is nominally 3.7V/cell X # of cells at 0.2C. Recognize that this is a nominal value and will vary with the specific pack, how close the current is to 0.2C and how old the pack is.
5. The Kokam cells are shipped at half - charge and hundreds checked prior to in-house pack assembly measured exactly 3.81 at 50% capacity before charging. It is well to check this voltage before charging in order to ”calibrate” your set - up.
6. For the example curve: if your DVM says 3.5V under the light load, the cell has been depleted to 3.68V = 1625 mAh. That is about 80% of capacity and time to stop flying if you wish to maximize cycle life or minimize risk of a cut – off and a short flight..
7. Keep track of pack voltage after each flight, track it against the discharge curve, then calibrate when the pack is recharged. Also, keep a record of flight time. Record the capacity it takes to charge the pack. Divide the capacity needed for charge by flight time in minutes to get the average capacity consumed per minute. Now you have it gas - gauged and can use the DVM to see what is left after each flight or use the average consumption per minute to estimate capacity used.
8. Always remember that almost all crashes occur on “that one last flight”! Leave a margin.

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Old 07-17-2005, 10:25 PM
  #54  
rammar
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

Got an email that I had a reply - no reply. Whats up FMA? I like my triton charger. It does all that. But I just noticed the settings for Ah only go to 2.5 and I just got a KOK2000-15c-3s2p 11.1V 4000ma Lipoly and wonder if I set the Triton at 2.5 and 11.1 w/ thermal probe will it charge this monster? Anyone know? OK I assume it will, but will it get the FULL charge if I babysit long enough? What I'm tryin to find out is if I need a different charger for this big a battery and which one.
Thanks
Rick
Old 07-17-2005, 10:26 PM
  #55  
rammar
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

Got an email that I had a reply - no reply. Whats up FMA? I like my triton charger. It does all that. But I just noticed the settings for Ah only go to 2.5 and I just got a KOK2000-15c-3s2p 11.1V 4000ma Lipoly and wonder if I set the Triton at 2.5 and 11.1 w/ thermal probe will it charge this monster? Anyone know? OK I assume it will, but will it get the FULL charge if I babysit long enough? What I'm tryin to find out is if I need a different charger for this big a battery and which one.
Thanks
Rick
Old 07-17-2005, 10:39 PM
  #56  
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

Fred, thanks for all the helpful info. I already have a second 3S1P 2000 pack as well as a parallel interconnect module. I set it all up tonight (fortunately it all fits in the Oly II) and it seems to run fine. Cell temp was just under 90F after a 20 second full throttle run. I have a feeling I won't need full throttle to get satisfactory launches with this setup. We'll see how it does this week. Thanks again for your help.

Bob
Old 07-17-2005, 11:13 PM
  #57  
Fred Marks
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

ORIGINAL: rammar

Got an email that I had a reply - no reply. Whats up FMA? I like my triton charger. It does all that. But I just noticed the settings for Ah only go to 2.5 and I just got a KOK2000-15c-3s2p 11.1V 4000ma Lipoly and wonder if I set the Triton at 2.5 and 11.1 w/ thermal probe will it charge this monster? Anyone know? OK I assume it will, but will it get the FULL charge if I babysit long enough? What I'm tryin to find out is if I need a different charger for this big a battery and which one.
Thanks
Rick
Triton will give a full charge but it will take about 2.5 hours.
Old 07-18-2005, 06:38 PM
  #58  
rammar
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

Thanks Fred,
I figured it would take a long time. Do you know of a faster charger?
Rick
Old 07-18-2005, 06:44 PM
  #59  
Fred Marks
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum


ORIGINAL: rammar

Thanks Fred,
I figured it would take a long time. Do you know of a faster charger?
Rick
As soon as we have the Skyvolt 6S charger in stock (now Aug/Sept) you can do the charge in 20 minutes. The Astro 109 and one of our Charge Control Modules can do it in one hour.
Old 07-25-2005, 05:33 PM
  #60  
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

I have an FMA super nova 250S charger, and had never used until now on Nimh batteries. I just bought two new nimh packs - one is a 4 cell 1700 mah recv pack and one is an 8 cell 1700 mah transmitter pack.

When charging the 4 cell pack with the super nova, it ran for only a few minutes (charge rate 1000 ma) and then shut off. I assumed it had already been charged. Just to be sure, I thought I would cycle it once. At a discharge rate of 800 ma, it showed being fully discharged in just a few minutes.

The same thing happened on the 8 cell pack. Either I have two bad packs or something is up with the charger. So I tried charging 4 cell again. This time I put a volt meter on the leads going to the pack while it was charging.

I noticed that the reading was about 0.5 volts lower than was showing on the chrager LCD. This would explain the premature shut off.

I am now noticing that the same charger is shutting off earlier than it should on Nicad packs too.

My charger is s/n 0433985.

Any suggestions???

Thanks,

Magnetik, Louisville, KY
Old 07-25-2005, 07:04 PM
  #61  
Fred Marks
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

Send it in for service so it can be calibrated. Put a note with it telling the service depertment what the problem is.
Old 07-28-2005, 10:11 PM
  #62  
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

Hello, My einstein XL charger Just quit can I get it serviced??
Thanks
Brian
Old 07-31-2005, 11:00 AM
  #63  
Greg Covey
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

Hi Brian,

Give FMA Tech. Support a call at 301-668-4280 and they'll take care of you.
Old 07-31-2005, 12:18 PM
  #64  
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

Hello!

I have 2 kokam 3 cell 1500 mah batteries that i use with my mini-t + mamba brushless system. I have been charging them both with my duratrax ice charger set at the LIPO setting. Currently one battery refuses to charge past 86 MAH and the other one won't charge past 256 MAH!! My run time witha 4200 kv motor is like 2 min with the one and 5 min with the other. i don't know whats going wrong.. i charge them at 1.5 on the specific lipo setting. The batteries don't appear to be damaged, and they have never felt "warm" Is there a way i can revive them if bad? or is there some other explaination?

Thanks

-Scott
Old 07-31-2005, 02:53 PM
  #65  
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

Couple of questions...

I have a Kokam 910 two cell and the Electrifly polycharge 1-3 cell

1. I've charged them on both 1000ma and 500ma...battery never heats up more than a couple of degrees over ambient temp, just takes longer on 500ma...correct?

2. If I get a 1500ma pack the 1000ma should be fine just will take longer, correct?

Thanks,
Ken
Old 08-04-2005, 11:30 AM
  #66  
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

I bought a Kokam 11.1V, 1500mah LiPo battery for use in a GWS A-10 Warthog. the plane has two 9.6V max rated motors, and the battery should be enough to run both motors for about 7minute flight times.

The plane has only been flown once, and after the first flight, the battery was very hot and bulging slightly. I have read numerous safety warnings about charging these things when they are damaged, but I have also read that a slight bulge is OK. To be frank, I am new to electrics, and all of these warnings about fire has gotten me gun shy about charging it.

My question is: How do I know if the battery is overheating or bulging too much? Am I being overly cautious? Do I have the right battery for the job? By the way, I've seen some Lipos that say HC on them. Mine does not.

Any help you can provide would be appreciated. Thanks!
Old 08-04-2005, 06:46 PM
  #67  
Greg Covey
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

Hi Scott,

It's hard to determine if you have a charging issue or a pack capacity issue. If the packs used to work fine, what current are you drawing from them in formal operation? The 1500mAh cells are good for 10-12amps for short bursts of 5-10 seconds. Were the packs ever really hot after a run? You can contact FMA Tech Support for more answers and they can also look at your packs if you send them in.

Hi Ken,

1) Yes, correct.

2) Correct again.

I typically charge my packs at 1C or anything less. The exception to this will be the new Skyvolt packs that can charge at 3C or to 90% in 20 minutes using the Skyvolt 6s Balancing charger due out next month.

gtbcpa,

It's difficult to determine from your description but it appears you are not using the stock EDF 50 fan units in the GWS A-10 Warthog. My guess is that you over-stressed the pack by either excessive current draw or running the voltage too low on the pack. Either cause would make the cells start to bloat. For a more robust cell, try the new 15C 1250mAh cell that can deliver 12-15amps continuous.

Again, you can contact FMA Tech Support for more answers and they can also look at your packs if you send them in.
Old 08-05-2005, 08:14 AM
  #68  
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

Greg,
Actually, my kit came with EDF 55 fan units. I believe the kit was modified because of complaints of being underpowered. Unfortunately, they didn't redesign the size of the battery compartment, so to get decent flight times, I went with the Lipo. When you say 15C, that is the part I don't quite understand. I basically went with what the hobby shop recommended not understanding it fully. I'm not sure what the discharge rating is on mine.

Thanks for the response.
Old 08-06-2005, 10:23 PM
  #69  
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

Hi,
I have several questions about Kokam Li-Po battery.
i bought the battery about 2 years back; 3Cells 3250 mah. it has no extra wire for cells balancing.

My questions :
if I want to balance each cells, what do you recommend ?
I have seen people put charging lead to each cells. so it means there will be 4 sets of wires coming from the battery.
but how to solder it ? is it save ?
what alternatives do I have to deal with this unbalanced battery cells (eventually it will be there , right ?)

I have seen also a battery that only have 2 set of wires, 1 original lead with black & white; and the other one with 4 wires, 1 red, and 3 black.
is this also considered as a balancing method ?

Sorry for such a long questions.
i hope it's not too confusing.

Thx a lot & Brg,
Nick,
Jakarta, INDONESIA
Old 08-07-2005, 07:13 AM
  #70  
Greg Covey
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

gtbcpa,

The 15C means that you can draw current up to 15 times the capacity of the cell, which in this case is 15x1250mA=18.75amps. So this new 1250 cell can deliver 18.75amps in bursts of 5-10 seconds where the older 1500mAh cell could only provide 8x1500mA=12amps for short bursts. The 1250 cell is less stressed on a 15amp burst of current than the 1500 cell.

Nick,

Yes, you are right. The newer packs comes with a seperate connector which taps into the individual cells for balancing. Since the balancing devices are still arriving on the market, one way to balance the pack is too charge each cell inidiviaully using a charger set for 1s.

If you measure the cell voltage to be more than 0.05v apart on your 3250mAh pack, you can solder a little red JST connector across each cell and then plug it into most Lithium chargers set to 1s (or 1 cell). Typically, the lower cell count packs (less than 5 cell) do not have balancing issues unless you have stressed the pack by drawing excessive current or the pack is over a year old. It is the higher cell count packs like 6s to 10s that suffer the most from balance issues.

If you have a newer pack with taps, you can use the same technique as above to balance each cell until the chargers arrive on the market.
Old 08-07-2005, 10:30 PM
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NicholasT
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

HI Greg,
how to solder the little red JST Connector to the battery ? any hint ? or just like usual method?
Any special thing that we have to be careful, apart from being too hot to the battery.

Thx a lot n brg,
NICK
Jakarta, INDONESIA
Old 08-16-2005, 10:01 AM
  #72  
R E Gibbs
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum



I want to use a KOK2000-15C-3S-DNS pack for use with an ASTRO Cobalt 05 G (2.38:1). Running the numbers through Electrocalc it appears I would be drawing 16 amps with a 9x6 APC prop with an input of approximately 31 watts/lb of model weight. Using larger props I can easily get to 50 watts/lb in and the flight performance predicted is just what I want but the printout notes that the battery temperature is 160F, too high for the LiPo pack which is limited to 140 F. Is 140degrees F truly the maximum temperature for this pack.

Many thanks,

Dick
Old 08-16-2005, 01:29 PM
  #73  
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

Nick,

Just try to limit the heat to the battery terminal to a minimum and you'll be fine.

Dick,

The temperature of and Lithium pack should not exceed 140-150 degrees F. The cooler the better.

When you design your power system, use a battery that is capable of bursting to your full power current draw. Use the 20C rating as a burst level of 5-10 seconds. In other words, the 2AH pack won't get too hot if you only draw 20-25amps most of the time and burst to 30amps (15C) for 5-10 seconds.

See the attached drawing for a 1250mAh (15C) cell as an example.
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Old 08-16-2005, 02:02 PM
  #74  
R E Gibbs
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

Greg,

Thanks much for your reply. Just what I needed to know!

Dick
Old 08-17-2005, 11:34 AM
  #75  
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Default RE: Welcome to the FMA Direct - Kokam LiPo Support Forum

OK.
Thx a lot.
brg,
NICK

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