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A123Racing Battery Questions

Old 08-25-2006, 09:36 AM
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A123 Racing
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Default A123Racing Battery Questions

Hello RC Universe, please use this forum for any questions regarding the battery packs, RC developer cells, or our technology in general.

Brian


[link=http://www.a123racing.com][/link]
Old 08-30-2006, 01:15 PM
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A123 Racing
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

Brian,

Your batteries seem to operate at a slightly lower voltage than conventional Lithium Poly batteries? I assume that the mandatory cut-off voltage is also lower. What is it? If I am configuring a system for aircraft operation that would normally be 6S, do I need to add a cell to work with your system?

Bob
Hello Bob,

We recommend a 2.0V / cell cutoff, though our cells are extremely tolerant of over voltage and undervoltage. 1.0V/cell will not be a problem as long as the load is not kept for an extended period of time. As far as needing to add a 7th cell to replace your 6S configuration; that depends alot on your setup. I know some people are using our batteries at the lower voltage and simply changing to a larger prop to make better use of our high power capabilities. For example; someone using a Thunderpower Lipo was running an 11 x 8 prop at 30 amps, after using our batteries he changed to a 14 x 8 prop at 43 amps with spectacular results. But again it depends on your individual setup.

Brian

[link=http://www.a123racing.com][/link]
Old 08-31-2006, 01:10 PM
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Thundermaxx1
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

I might be missing something but do these batteries not have an internal cut off like others?
Old 09-01-2006, 07:08 PM
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DougE
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

Hi A123, thinking of buying a 2s2p-2 system for my losi truck and b4 buggy. Running novak systems now, the GTB / velociti with 4.5 is in the losi. Will your battery work with the novaks?

Also, thinking of getting a mamba max--will your battery system work with them?
Old 09-04-2006, 09:51 PM
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Lee Jay
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

Hello. I've been following your company's development for quite a while now.

Current limitations appear to be:

- Lower energy density than Lithium Polymer batteries (~100 Wh/kg versus ~140 Wh/kg). This is a very important consideration for aircraft.

- Only one available cell size (2300mAh). LiPos seem to be available from 300mAh to 5000mAh with numerous options in between.

- Can't charge using regular LiPo chargers
I mention this on because I'm interested in the CellPro from FMA because it charges all the cells separatly - a very nice advantage in my opinion.

- Limited pack availability (2S1P, 3S1P, 2S2P).

The advantages of inherant safety, increased durability and higher charge/discharge rates are attractive.

Can you comment on how you plan to address each of the four limitations I mentioned above please?

Thank you.

Lee Jay
Old 09-06-2006, 08:01 PM
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Nightshift
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

Hi A123!
I have been reading at your new thecnologie for a while on this forum and on a other forum to.
i got a associated T4 that is equiped with a LRP sphere esc that i run with a neo one 1 star (Brushless system)
I use to power that with some 7.2v NHIM 3800 battery pack from POLE POSITION.
This summer i sold most of my pack because i wont to switch to a better thecnologie for next winter racing.
I was thinking of LIPO or LIMG until i heard about you.
I got no lipo charger . so it gone a be a fresh start for the next thecnologie.
We run 5 minutes race off road dirt track.
what do you suggest for a complete set up .
I used to have 8 packs for my racing day : 4 for practice and set up the car
1 for each qualif. (3) and my best one for the final (1) total of 8.

Nightshift
Old 09-10-2006, 09:44 PM
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Batfish
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

ORIGINAL: DougE

Hi A123, thinking of buying a 2s2p-2 system for my losi truck and b4 buggy. Running novak systems now, the GTB / velociti with 4.5 is in the losi. Will your battery work with the novaks?

Also, thinking of getting a mamba max--will your battery system work with them?
DougE,

I've been using the A123Racing packs for a couple months now, and working with Brian (in helping them get real-world information) for just as long.

I just ran my XXX-T MF with the Novak GTB/5.5 and an A123Racing 2s1p 2300 pack at RCCA's Battery Blast in CT yesterday. I took 3rd in the B Main (I'm not a sponsored mega-driver ) and had zero issues with the batteries. In general, I've found that increasing your pinion size by 2 teeth (in 48p) makes the 2s1p 2300 work like a normal 6-cell nimh pack.
My MF had no problems keeping up with any of the hot setups yesterday - it was only my driving skill that kept the truck back

I've also used the 2s1p 2300 pack in my TC3 "O" (buggy conversion for the TC3) with a Novak SS5800, to the same effect. Bump up a couple teeth and it'll be as fast as a 6-cell nimh, with exceptional punch and stable power throughout the entire run.

I got at least 6 minutes (5-minute quals and main, plus practice laps) from the A123Racing 2s1p packs in my XXX-T MF with the Novak GTB/5.5 yesterday. Neither the packs, nor the motor, nor the ESC heated up at all in 80F weather.
In my TC3 "O", I get around 9 solid minutes of running on the track before the batteries dump. That is with the Novak SS5800 setup.

I also use the A123Racing 2s2p 4600 packs in my G-Maxx (E-Maxx with a GorillaMaxx chassis), wired in series. I use a BK 9920 speed controller with a Lehner 1940/9 motor and get about 15 minutes of run time on the track.
Old 09-10-2006, 09:57 PM
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Batfish
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions


ORIGINAL: Nightshift

Hi A123!
I have been reading at your new thecnologie for a while on this forum and on a other forum to.
i got a associated T4 that is equiped with a LRP sphere esc that i run with a neo one 1 star (Brushless system)
I use to power that with some 7.2v NHIM 3800 battery pack from POLE POSITION.
This summer i sold most of my pack because i wont to switch to a better thecnologie for next winter racing.
I was thinking of LIPO or LIMG until i heard about you.
I got no lipo charger . so it gone a be a fresh start for the next thecnologie.
We run 5 minutes race off road dirt track.
what do you suggest for a complete set up .
I used to have 8 packs for my racing day : 4 for practice and set up the car
1 for each qualif. (3) and my best one for the final (1) total of 8.

Nightshift
Nightshift,

I'd recommend two of the 2s1p 2300 packs.
They will give you the same performance - no more worrying about which pack is the "best" pack.
As with other Lithium technologies, these batteries have an extremely low self-discharge rate so you don't have to worry about peaking them right before racing. You can even charge them a couple days before the race and not notice any decrease in the battery's performance.
The A123Racing packs also shouldn't heat up during a 5-minute race, and can be put directly onto the Hypersonic charger to be freshly charged again in about 10-15 minutes. If they happen to get a little warm, you may want to let them cool for a few minutes before charging them.
You can always have one pack charged while using the other, so you should never be out of business.
Old 09-11-2006, 08:36 PM
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A123 Racing
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

Hello People,

I've got more answers to your questions.

Thundermaxx, do these batteries not have an internal cutoff like others?

Low voltage cutoff should not be of great concern to the average user. We recommend a cut-off voltage of 2V / cell but they are tolerant of over and under voltage. The working range for the cells is: Charge to 3.6V / cell and discharge to 2.0V/cell. The tolerable range is 4.2V to 1.0V / cell. These characteristics can be applied to the packs as long as the individual cells in the pack remain balanced. For example a 2S1P (6.6V) pack can be brought up to 8.4V provided that it is not kept at that voltage for a long duration of time, and that the pack is balanced properly. If the cells in the pack were not balanced you could seriously damage your pack at 8.4V. If one of the cells was measuring 3.6V the other would be at 4.8V. In this situation it is certain that you would shorten the life of the pack, and very possible that you would permanently damage it. Even though the batteries are tolerable of 4.2V / cell we do not recommend that they be charged on a 4.1/4.2V Lithium charger because the charger will maintain the pack voltage at 4.2V for several minutes, which will degrade the life of your pack. Also because those chargers do not monitor and balance the cells during charging it is very possible to permanently damage the pack.

DougE, will your battery work with Novaks now. Also thinking about getting a Mamba Maxx.

Hello DougE, we have people out there running our batteries in their 1/10 scale trucks and cars. I have not heard or seen any problems with them yet. I reviewed the Mamba Maxx manual (available at the manufacturers website) and that should work well also. Please note that the 2S2P battery is a bit larger than a typical NiMH pack that most people are used to. You may need to modify your chassis / battery strap down in order for it to fit. The 2S1P is narrower but still a bit taller than a typical pack, but most people do not have much difficulty in finding a way to keep it in the chassis.

LeeJay, how will we address limitations of our batteries.

Hello LeeJay, because of our single cell size (26mm diameter x 65mm) we limited in some aspects. The solution to this is research and development. We are always looking for the next best thing. Time will be the solution to the limitations you mention. In the mean time we believe that people can certainly make use of the:
Power; 30C continuous 60C pulse.
Safety; No thermal runaway / fire.
Mechanical durability; impact resistant laser welded aluminum canister, and up to 1000 cycles.
Electrical durability, voltage tolerant of 1V to 4.2V / cell.
Quick Charge, As little as 15 minutes with the Sonic Charge system.

The pack availability can be changed based on user feedback. I urge you to let us know if there is something else you are looking for.

Nightshift: Interest in racing A123s

Hello Nightshift, sounds like you have a nice setup there. I am running the sphere with a neo 3 star in my touring car. With a 2S1P battery, and it really moves. Batfish has some great input for your questions. He has been racing these batteries for a little while now. The 2S1P certainly would be the best fit for you. It is small (about 28mm Dia x 132mm) and lightweight (less than half the weight of a NiMH). They charge in about 15 minutes, and I expect you would see run times equivalent to Batfish’s. As long as you don’t require a battery swap sooner than 15 minutes a 2S1P starter kit (2 x 2S1P battery and a charger) should suit you well.

Thanks again for all the questions, please keep them coming.

[link=http://www.a123racing.com][/link]
Old 09-11-2006, 08:44 PM
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Nightshift
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

Thank. Batfish!
What you suggest to me is about what i was thinking to get to start with for giving them a try.
Just find out to yesterday that they gone run 6 minutes final instead of 5 minutes ,but what i just see in one of your post ,6min. should not be a problem with a 2300ma.

I live in Quebec Canada ,any problem for ordering?

Nightshift.
Old 09-12-2006, 12:18 PM
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A123 Racing
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

Hello Nightshift,

We can ship to Canada, however due to the fact that we cannot ship over seas yet we have not set up our website for international orders. I will work this out and let you know once I have a solution.

Brian

[link=http://www.a123racing.com][/link]
Old 09-12-2006, 02:32 PM
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Lee Jay
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

ORIGINAL: A123 Racing
The pack availability can be changed based on user feedback. I urge you to let us know if there is something else you are looking for.
Thank you for responding.

I think the DeWalt DC9360 is a 10-cell pack of your batteries. Assuming I am correct, and since they sell for about $150 or so street price, it seems to me the cells must be less than $15 each in bulk since an assembled pack should cost more than the individual cells. Your own 2s1p pack is $50 assembled with a connector. I'm sure a significant portion of that price is the cost of assembly and materials beyond the cells themselves.

I've been building my own battery packs for 15 years with no problems. Would you be willing to sell loose cells for something in the $10 range for people like me who don't mind building their own battery packs? In the past, I've bought individual boxes of 20 Sanyo cells for around 10% above the bulk (500 cell) price. Would you be interested in selling boxes (12, 20, whatever you do) for a discount?

Thank you again for being here and responding.

Lee Jay


Old 09-16-2006, 10:52 AM
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stanger89
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

Brian,

I've been an RC flyer, for well a long time. I've recently (past couple years) been moving completely to electric power for all the reasons e-flyers know. To make a long story short, with the advent of the high-capacity (3200) 20C packs, I started building/converting my larger, "40 size" planes to epower.

Now these planes need at least 4S to get the power needed and maintain reasonable power levels.

So my questions for you are:

What are your plans/recommendations for 4S and up power?
Is it simply to get multiple smaller packs add combine them in series?
Do you have plans to sell 4, 5... s packs?
Do you have plans for charging >3s packs?

At the current time:
Can you combine multiple small packs in series to make larger ones?
Would you just charge each pack separately and connect them together?
Does your charger work with both 2 and 3s packs?

I think if you came up with a 4s-6s solution, you'd have a lot of fans, as your product has the potential to be better in almost every way than what's currently available in the 14V + range.

Also, I too, would be interested in purchasing loose cells.
Old 09-17-2006, 10:30 PM
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Batfish
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

ORIGINAL: stanger89

.......
At the current time:
Can you combine multiple small packs in series to make larger ones?
Would you just charge each pack separately and connect them together?
Does your charger work with both 2 and 3s packs?
..........
I can answer these for you.
Can you combine multiple small packs in series to make larger ones?
Yes. I have used a 2s1p 2300 with a 3s1p 2300 for 5s. I regularly use two of the 2s2p 4600 in series (4s2p) in my E-Maxx.

Would you just charge each pack separately and connect them together?
Yes.

Does your charger work with both 2 and 3s packs?
Yes.

Hope that helps some.

Old 09-19-2006, 10:33 AM
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stanger89
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

Yes it does, thanks. I had assumed those answers to the question, but hadn't taken the time to research for sure.

My real question was if there were plans for a 4S+ solution from A123
Old 09-19-2006, 11:20 AM
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A123 Racing
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

Hello,

I have more questions to answer.

Lee Jay, Can loose cells be purchased and is there a discount for a bulk order?

Hello Lee Jay, We do currently sell our loose cells on our website (www.a123racing.com) you can get four of them for $66. you can also get the balancing wires for these cells to allow you to create custom 2S and 3S packs that can still be used with our charger. If you would like to contact customersupport@a123racing.com you could discuss a large order discount.

Stranger89, questions about 40 size conversions.

Hey Stranger89, (no pun intended ) I just spent the weekend at a model airplane festival. There were several people there flying our batteries, and even more buying them to use in the future. Our batteries are a great fit for a 40 size conversion. It looks like Batfish was able to answer some of your questions (thanks Joe) about the batteries and the charger. Two of our 2S1P packs wired in series would give you a great 4S (13.2V) pack capable of 70 amps continuous and a 30 minute charge time (15min / battery). A 3S1P and a 2S1P could be strung together in series for the 5S (16.5V) with the same characteristics as a 4S. We currently only have the 2S and 3S packs for sale. 4S has been a very common request, but there are no plans for development yet.

Thanks again for your interest and keep the questions coming.

Brian

[link=http://www.a123racing.com][/link]
Old 09-22-2006, 10:21 PM
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dbgantt
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

Brian,

Spoke with Sid Kauffman today and he told me that A123 was represented at NEAT. Glad to hear you are speaking to the eFlight RC customers. I have a couple of questions...

Why doesn't A123 respond to emails with questions sent from the web site. Perhaps this forum will suffice.

Can you explain how the venting system works on the A123 cells. I had assumed that the dot on the back of the cells was the vent but apparenly that is not the case. Sid related that A123 stated that this caused potential safety problems with end to end cell pack construction. Especially when using systems like the Solderless Power Tubes from MEC. Details would be appreicated. Apparently the venting system is different from what many of us are used to with Nicad and NiMH cells.

Can you get A123 cells without the welded tabs?

I noticed the button on the negative end of the cells rotates on the A123 cells. Is this OK to rotate this to get the appropriate alignement on the tabs when constructing packs that have the welded tabs attached.

A123 cells can be harvested from Dewalt packs bought on eBay for about $10.50 per cell yet they cost around $16 per cell puchased directly from A123. Will the price of cells be coming down or will we continue to have to puchase and deconstruct Dewalt battery packs on eBay.

The current battery pack configurations aren't very useful for eFlight. The 6S1P an 8S1P configurations seem to really be the sweet spot for .40 sized eflight. Any plans on when these will be available? 4S1P is good for .25 size aircraft as well! I realize the existing packs can be daisy chained but it creates a bit of a hassle and extra complexity (read opportunity for error).

FWIW, I've been flying two home made 6S1P packs and one 4S1P pack and have been really pleased to date. I have about 15 flights on the packs so far.

Thanks in advance,

Dana
Old 09-25-2006, 03:07 PM
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

I would also like to know how the venting works, I like using end-to-end soldering..

Herm


>>>>
Can you explain how the venting system works on the A123 cells. I had assumed that the dot on the back of the cells was the vent but apparenly that is not the case. Sid related that A123 stated that this caused potential safety problems with end to end cell pack construction. Especially when using systems like the Solderless Power Tubes from MEC. Details would be appreicated. Apparently the venting system is different from what many of us are used to with Nicad and NiMH cells.
Old 09-26-2006, 02:42 PM
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A123 Racing
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

Hello People,

All good questions. If you send emails to customersupport@a123racing.com they will be checked daily.

The venting system is on the positive side of the battery. The ring on the bottom is where the cell vents. If the cell is abused to the point of failure this area will break open and allow the gas to escape. We are currently testing the Solderless power tubes, but we do not have any definitive data yet.

You should definitely not butt solder the cells end to end. Applying the heat from the soldering gun directly to the cell is very bad for it. When the heat is applied the electrolyte inside the cell actually boils creating a gas behind the anode or the cathode. This will degrade the lifespan of your cell dramatically. This should also be noted when working with a Dewalt pack. When you get a Dewalt pack most people cut the straps that hold the battery together in half. This leaves you with a tab that is to short to do anything with. People wind up soldering the wire to this short tab, because they are soldering so closely to the cell that heat can cause the same problem discussed above. In regards to the price, a Dewalt pack retails in stores for $159.99 ($16 / cell), which is where we base our pricing for our cells.
There are deals on Ebay, but that is how Ebay is sometimes. In short you can get a Dewalt pack off of Ebay and save a few bucks, but you have to spend your time to get it apart and after that you typically wind up with cells that have been damaged while building your pack. If you get he loose cells from us they come with nickel tabs that are capable of 100+ amps continuous that are designed for use in series and parallel strings (even end to end) and the cell will not be damaged when you build it. If you do take a Dewalt pack apart the signs of damage will not be apparent immediately but after the pack has been cycled for a while.

The button on the negative end of the cell SHOULD NOTE BE ROTATED. If you rotate this you could very possibly create an internal short in the cell. The tab should not rotate freely. If you do notice that it rotates then you are probably putting a little bit of effort into turning it.

Again Do Not Rotate The Tab!!

The current battery configurations were created in the best effort to meet the needs of all the RC hobbyists. We had hoped that people could create their own custom packs by stringing together the 2S and the 3S packs as they needed. We are also selling loose cells so that hobbyists that need an alternative solution are free to create their own packs. We have been getting requests for a 4S pack to be created. We have not scheduled a 4S pack but it is being discussed as a possible future product. I urge everyone to use the forum and the customersupport@a123racing.com email to give us your feedback and ideas to help create new products.

It is great to hear that you are having great success with our batteries. I would love to see some pictures of your plane.

I will post some pictures of the recommended end to end soldering of our developer kit cells soon.

Keep the questions coming,

Brian

[link=http://www.a123racing.com][/link]
Old 09-26-2006, 07:02 PM
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elhepilot
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

I am Canadian and I want to order an A123 Racing system charger and battery. The A123 Racing order page is only for US customers. I have phoned A123 Racing and left a message with the sales department but no reply. How can I place an order??
Old 09-26-2006, 09:39 PM
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Nightshift
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions


ORIGINAL: elhepilot

I am Canadian and I want to order an A123 Racing system charger and battery. The A123 Racing order page is only for US customers. I have phoned A123 Racing and left a message with the sales department but no reply. How can I place an order??
Same thing for me , i phone yesterday ,talked to Brian, no come back yet!

those American, they can send aship to the moon , but not 2 battery pack and a charger to Quebec Canada!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nightshift
Old 09-27-2006, 05:28 PM
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A123 Racing
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

Hello Neighbors to the north.

I will be looking into setting up shipping to Canada tommorow. I just need to check on a few things. I will post again when I am successful. Until then thanks for the patience.

Brian

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Old 09-28-2006, 02:51 PM
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A123 Racing
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

Hello All,

We are now able to ship product to Canada in addition to the United States. We plan to have shipping to other countries available soon and I will notify the everyone when that becomes available.

Please let me know if you have any other questions.

Brian

[link=http://www.a123racing.com][/link]
Old 09-29-2006, 12:08 AM
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tmenet
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

Lee Jay

TME manufactures a new high end Combination Li Charger / Wattmeter called the Xtrema that can handle up to 10s cells. The current production model has a special mode specifically designed to charge A123 cells. The features to this charger are too numerous to mention here. For more information visit www.theXtrema.com

Albert
Old 09-29-2006, 06:19 PM
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elhepilot
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Default RE: A123Racing Battery Questions

A123Racing site still does not accept Canadian orders. When should I try again?

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