Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
03-19-2013, 07:51 AM
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
Please explain to me what a "serious" flyer is??? In all reality, all RC planes are basically toys be they made of foam or wood. That is exactly what I am talking about, the "eliteism" that seems so pervasive in this hobby. Why can't we all just enjoy the segment of the hobby we all like and not pile scorn on those that don't fit into someone's perception of what the hobby should be? It would be so much more enjoyable for all. After all, isn't that what drives so many newbies from joining a club?
03-19-2013, 09:04 AM
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
I empathize with the original poster and his good intentions, but I also understand exactly where the "old school" commentators are coming from.
When I first decided that I wanted to fly radio control planes, I didn't know there even was such a thing as an "RC Flying Club." I bought a little electric 2-channel plane (left throttle, right throttle, differential steering, go fast to climb and go slow to sink) and tossed it around a local park until a gust of wind carried it away and I couldn't find it.
I didn't learn much, except that I really enjoyed it when I was actually able to get the plane to fly. I knew I wanted to keep learning to fly radio control, so when Christmas came around I mentioned that I might like a Hobbytown USA gift card and Santa came through for me.
I went to my local Hobbytown USA, and I was expertly guided toward a stick-and-pod airplane called a Hobbyzone Aerobird Challenger. I affectionately referred to that plane as the "aeroturd" because of how it flew for me. At least the "Challenger" part of the name was honest enough.
I went out with my aeroturd and dove it into soccer fields and parks all over town, busting up wings and tails and propellers quite regularly, but hardly ever managing to sustain flight for more than a few precious seconds. I discovered that my 12v car charger that came with my aeroturd would "false peak" and tell me my battery was full when it barely had a charge, so I bought the optional AC charger for my flight battery.
One day I was at a local soccer complex when two other RC pilots stopped by. I was sure something was wrong with my plane, and one of them mentioned they'd flown that very model before and they'd be happy to test it out for me. They launched it, and away it went, flying just like it was supposed to. I regarded the news that it wasn't the plane's fault that I couldn't fly it as a sort of revelation.
I decided that getting help from experienced pilots would, at the very least, reduce the frequency of trips I'd have to make to Hobbytown USA for extra props, wings, and tails. A friend mentioned in passing that she'd seen some folks flying radio control planes at Standing Bear Lake Park here in town. I thought it would be a good place to try to run into another pilot or two who could help me get my aeroturd airborne without needing so many replacement parts.
When I got to Standing Bear Lake Park, I wasn't prepared for what I saw. I thought my Aerobird Challenger with its 42" wingspan was pretty cool, and for the first time I saw pilots flying 5' and 6' wingspan glow planes from a real 500' long asphalt runway. I actually left my aeroturd in the car, forgetting any intention of tossing around my little electric airplane with a foam wing around.
After watching them fly that first evening, I happened back another evening to check out the fun. Unknown to me at the time, it happened to be training night at the club, and instructors were out flying students with buddy boxes. I sat in the viewing bleachers for a while and soaked it all in. It looked like a lot of fun, but I could only imagine how much more difficult it must be to learn to fly a bigger, heavier wooden plane with an internal combustion engine.
I started walking back to my car when one of the club members came walking over to me and asked, "Excuse me, would you like to give this a try?"
"Oh yeah," I replied; hesitation never even crossed my mind.
I most likely flew on a Hobbico Avistar trainer that night, as they have been popular as a club trainer for a long time. It was an amazing experience! I got about a 5-minute introductory flight. The larger, heavier plane cruised along smoothly and steadily without being tossed about by the wind. When I moved the sticks and told the plane to turn itself, it reacted immediately in a smooth and consistent manner.
It was a world of difference from my aeroturd. Nothing about my Challenger ever felt smooth or consistent, and what seemed like light winds would toss my aeroturd all over the sky in seemingly random directions. That five minute intro flight had me hopelessly hooked.
I signed up for a club membership on the spot. They told me that I didn't need my own plane right away, but I couldn't imagine not getting one. I did a little bit of looking around and bought a new Hobbico Nexstar trainer because I liked the bolt-on wing, the large wingspan, and the flight simulator that came included with it.
That introductory flight at the Omahawks RC club at Standing Bear Lake Park took place in May of 2005. The pilot who approached me and asked if I'd like to try flying that spring evening eight years ago was my friend Steve Culver. Steve would go on to become the Omahawks club president and later the Academy of Model Aeronautics' District IX Associate VP for Nebraska. When Steve stepped down from the AVP post last year, he recommended me for the job.
I started instructing pilots myself about four or five years ago, and I try to work with anybody and everybody who comes out to the field because they'd like to learn to fly. We have enthusiastic, hopeful pilots show up with Hobbyzone Champs and Stratos park fliers, and it's frustrating to want to help them and to be so limited with regard to teaching tools.
In the state of Nebraska, the wind is always blowing. To find outdoor flying time for a plane like the Hobbyzone Champ isn't impossible, but it can be rare. New pilots often don't have the patience to wait for ideally calm conditions, nor the knowledge to recognize when it's too windy to fly; I know I sure didn't when I was tossing around my first couple of foam electrics.
I encourage new pilots to fly with me on a glow trainer from time to time, even as I work with them on their park flyer aircraft as best we're able. It's not that I want to convert everyone to glow power (I do), but I want to give every pilot the perspective gained with flying a larger, more stable, more responsive aircraft. I believe it shows how smoothly a radio control aircraft can fly, and helps new pilots to better judge how windy is too windy for their smaller electric aircraft.
Any aircraft that can't be buddy boxed is really annoying to any club instructor. I would never call the Hobbyzone Champ RTF a trainer plane because it can't be buddy boxed with the radio that it comes with. The buddy box enables the instructor to share the aircraft safely with the greenest of new pilots while protecting the aircraft as well as surrounding people and property.
I have flown students with the Hobbyzone Super Cub DSM2 RTF, and I actually like that plane as a trainer. It is stable, it is easy to buddy box, and it can handle a little bit of wind without getting pushed around all over the place.
Flying on your own with a park flyer like the Champ is certainly possible. It can be a difficult and disappointing process, however, as a few seconds of flight will often be bought at the cost of broken airplane pieces and/or the climbing of trees. Learning to fly small park flyer-type aircraft also won't help you build the skills and knowledge required to fly larger, heavier, faster aircraft. If all you have flown is small park flyer foamies, then all you will be able to fly is small park flyer foamies until you make a leap into larger aircraft and learn new skills.
Challenges that face a new pilot are expensive lessons to learn without help from someone with experience:
-How windy is too windy for my plane?
-How can I tell if my battery is charged?
-What direction should I take off?
-What direction should I land?
-How do I know when I can fix my plane or if I should replace it?
-How do I know if my radio will interfere with somebody else?
-Will this plane help me learn how to fly the plane I want next?
The "old school" folks who aren't wild about the original poster's plan of flying a Champ on a mini transmitter then buying a T-28 have plenty of good reasons to offer alternative advise. That having been said, the original poster's suggestions are good for the folks interested in trying to fly radio control without the interest in or access to a structured club environment.
I personally found my early experiences with small electrics to be frustrating, but today's inexpensive electric planes are far better than what I started out with. I just want to make sure that new pilots understand the frustration and expense that can be inherent in going it alone.
When I first decided that I wanted to fly radio control planes, I didn't know there even was such a thing as an "RC Flying Club." I bought a little electric 2-channel plane (left throttle, right throttle, differential steering, go fast to climb and go slow to sink) and tossed it around a local park until a gust of wind carried it away and I couldn't find it.
I didn't learn much, except that I really enjoyed it when I was actually able to get the plane to fly. I knew I wanted to keep learning to fly radio control, so when Christmas came around I mentioned that I might like a Hobbytown USA gift card and Santa came through for me.
I went to my local Hobbytown USA, and I was expertly guided toward a stick-and-pod airplane called a Hobbyzone Aerobird Challenger. I affectionately referred to that plane as the "aeroturd" because of how it flew for me. At least the "Challenger" part of the name was honest enough.
I went out with my aeroturd and dove it into soccer fields and parks all over town, busting up wings and tails and propellers quite regularly, but hardly ever managing to sustain flight for more than a few precious seconds. I discovered that my 12v car charger that came with my aeroturd would "false peak" and tell me my battery was full when it barely had a charge, so I bought the optional AC charger for my flight battery.
One day I was at a local soccer complex when two other RC pilots stopped by. I was sure something was wrong with my plane, and one of them mentioned they'd flown that very model before and they'd be happy to test it out for me. They launched it, and away it went, flying just like it was supposed to. I regarded the news that it wasn't the plane's fault that I couldn't fly it as a sort of revelation.
I decided that getting help from experienced pilots would, at the very least, reduce the frequency of trips I'd have to make to Hobbytown USA for extra props, wings, and tails. A friend mentioned in passing that she'd seen some folks flying radio control planes at Standing Bear Lake Park here in town. I thought it would be a good place to try to run into another pilot or two who could help me get my aeroturd airborne without needing so many replacement parts.
When I got to Standing Bear Lake Park, I wasn't prepared for what I saw. I thought my Aerobird Challenger with its 42" wingspan was pretty cool, and for the first time I saw pilots flying 5' and 6' wingspan glow planes from a real 500' long asphalt runway. I actually left my aeroturd in the car, forgetting any intention of tossing around my little electric airplane with a foam wing around.
After watching them fly that first evening, I happened back another evening to check out the fun. Unknown to me at the time, it happened to be training night at the club, and instructors were out flying students with buddy boxes. I sat in the viewing bleachers for a while and soaked it all in. It looked like a lot of fun, but I could only imagine how much more difficult it must be to learn to fly a bigger, heavier wooden plane with an internal combustion engine.
I started walking back to my car when one of the club members came walking over to me and asked, "Excuse me, would you like to give this a try?"
"Oh yeah," I replied; hesitation never even crossed my mind.
I most likely flew on a Hobbico Avistar trainer that night, as they have been popular as a club trainer for a long time. It was an amazing experience! I got about a 5-minute introductory flight. The larger, heavier plane cruised along smoothly and steadily without being tossed about by the wind. When I moved the sticks and told the plane to turn itself, it reacted immediately in a smooth and consistent manner.
It was a world of difference from my aeroturd. Nothing about my Challenger ever felt smooth or consistent, and what seemed like light winds would toss my aeroturd all over the sky in seemingly random directions. That five minute intro flight had me hopelessly hooked.
I signed up for a club membership on the spot. They told me that I didn't need my own plane right away, but I couldn't imagine not getting one. I did a little bit of looking around and bought a new Hobbico Nexstar trainer because I liked the bolt-on wing, the large wingspan, and the flight simulator that came included with it.
That introductory flight at the Omahawks RC club at Standing Bear Lake Park took place in May of 2005. The pilot who approached me and asked if I'd like to try flying that spring evening eight years ago was my friend Steve Culver. Steve would go on to become the Omahawks club president and later the Academy of Model Aeronautics' District IX Associate VP for Nebraska. When Steve stepped down from the AVP post last year, he recommended me for the job.
I started instructing pilots myself about four or five years ago, and I try to work with anybody and everybody who comes out to the field because they'd like to learn to fly. We have enthusiastic, hopeful pilots show up with Hobbyzone Champs and Stratos park fliers, and it's frustrating to want to help them and to be so limited with regard to teaching tools.
In the state of Nebraska, the wind is always blowing. To find outdoor flying time for a plane like the Hobbyzone Champ isn't impossible, but it can be rare. New pilots often don't have the patience to wait for ideally calm conditions, nor the knowledge to recognize when it's too windy to fly; I know I sure didn't when I was tossing around my first couple of foam electrics.
I encourage new pilots to fly with me on a glow trainer from time to time, even as I work with them on their park flyer aircraft as best we're able. It's not that I want to convert everyone to glow power (I do), but I want to give every pilot the perspective gained with flying a larger, more stable, more responsive aircraft. I believe it shows how smoothly a radio control aircraft can fly, and helps new pilots to better judge how windy is too windy for their smaller electric aircraft.
Any aircraft that can't be buddy boxed is really annoying to any club instructor. I would never call the Hobbyzone Champ RTF a trainer plane because it can't be buddy boxed with the radio that it comes with. The buddy box enables the instructor to share the aircraft safely with the greenest of new pilots while protecting the aircraft as well as surrounding people and property.
I have flown students with the Hobbyzone Super Cub DSM2 RTF, and I actually like that plane as a trainer. It is stable, it is easy to buddy box, and it can handle a little bit of wind without getting pushed around all over the place.
Flying on your own with a park flyer like the Champ is certainly possible. It can be a difficult and disappointing process, however, as a few seconds of flight will often be bought at the cost of broken airplane pieces and/or the climbing of trees. Learning to fly small park flyer-type aircraft also won't help you build the skills and knowledge required to fly larger, heavier, faster aircraft. If all you have flown is small park flyer foamies, then all you will be able to fly is small park flyer foamies until you make a leap into larger aircraft and learn new skills.
Challenges that face a new pilot are expensive lessons to learn without help from someone with experience:
-How windy is too windy for my plane?
-How can I tell if my battery is charged?
-What direction should I take off?
-What direction should I land?
-How do I know when I can fix my plane or if I should replace it?
-How do I know if my radio will interfere with somebody else?
-Will this plane help me learn how to fly the plane I want next?
The "old school" folks who aren't wild about the original poster's plan of flying a Champ on a mini transmitter then buying a T-28 have plenty of good reasons to offer alternative advise. That having been said, the original poster's suggestions are good for the folks interested in trying to fly radio control without the interest in or access to a structured club environment.
I personally found my early experiences with small electrics to be frustrating, but today's inexpensive electric planes are far better than what I started out with. I just want to make sure that new pilots understand the frustration and expense that can be inherent in going it alone.
03-19-2013, 09:25 AM
#53
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
"I personally found my early experiences with small electrics to be frustrating, but today's inexpensive electric planes are far better than what I started out with. I just want to make sure that new pilots understand the frustration and expense that can be inherent in going it alone."
I understand fully what you are saying, but that's only one opinion. At my club, foamies are as welcome as the stick and tissue/monokote planes. In fact, most of the members of my club fly ONLY electrics and they are an old club. It somehow rubs me the wong way that the OP's suggestions were dismissed pretty much outright. Personally, I didn't find my "go it alone" experiece frustrating at all. My first plane, a Hobbyzone Firebird Stratos was a kick to fly and I pretty much flew it until I could fly it with my eyes closed. Along the way I got a Hobbyzone Champ simply because I could walk across the street and fly it in our local park. Next came the HZ Super Cub and Ares Gamma 370.
A lot of guys here said I was wasting my money on those "toy" trainers. Well, as it turned out EVERYONE of those "toy" trainers is currently in the hands of family and friends who are flying them successfully. Like I mentioned in my original post, I fly mostly warbirds now and have them from 39" wingspan and up to 60". Did I miss out on the enjoyment of RC because I learned on my own? Absolutely not. As for the questions you asked a the end of your post, most of them wereanswered for me on this and other forums.
You guys gotta remember, this is 2013, not 1980.
I understand fully what you are saying, but that's only one opinion. At my club, foamies are as welcome as the stick and tissue/monokote planes. In fact, most of the members of my club fly ONLY electrics and they are an old club. It somehow rubs me the wong way that the OP's suggestions were dismissed pretty much outright. Personally, I didn't find my "go it alone" experiece frustrating at all. My first plane, a Hobbyzone Firebird Stratos was a kick to fly and I pretty much flew it until I could fly it with my eyes closed. Along the way I got a Hobbyzone Champ simply because I could walk across the street and fly it in our local park. Next came the HZ Super Cub and Ares Gamma 370.
A lot of guys here said I was wasting my money on those "toy" trainers. Well, as it turned out EVERYONE of those "toy" trainers is currently in the hands of family and friends who are flying them successfully. Like I mentioned in my original post, I fly mostly warbirds now and have them from 39" wingspan and up to 60". Did I miss out on the enjoyment of RC because I learned on my own? Absolutely not. As for the questions you asked a the end of your post, most of them wereanswered for me on this and other forums.
You guys gotta remember, this is 2013, not 1980.
03-19-2013, 11:13 AM
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
Well said bigedmustafa!
-
Chucksolo69, sorry but the year is not relevant.
The basics are still all the same and something you DO NOT get correctly by going it alone.
It's 2013 and real pilots still have to learn, rate and qualify with instructors so they learn the proper proceedures, fly correctly and not hurt anyone.
RC is no different.
A few days within a club training program can save a few fingers, etc.. if not a life or lawsuit.
Going it alone, while possible under certain circumstances and with available PRIVATE lands, is still not good advice for almost ALL people getting into this hobby.
The "Old School" knows what it is doing, and has taught hundreds of thousands of flyers to do so safely. The "Going it alone" school, tends to get regulations and prohibitions passed against it.
-
Chucksolo69, sorry but the year is not relevant.
The basics are still all the same and something you DO NOT get correctly by going it alone.
It's 2013 and real pilots still have to learn, rate and qualify with instructors so they learn the proper proceedures, fly correctly and not hurt anyone.
RC is no different.
A few days within a club training program can save a few fingers, etc.. if not a life or lawsuit.
Going it alone, while possible under certain circumstances and with available PRIVATE lands, is still not good advice for almost ALL people getting into this hobby.
The "Old School" knows what it is doing, and has taught hundreds of thousands of flyers to do so safely. The "Going it alone" school, tends to get regulations and prohibitions passed against it.
03-19-2013, 12:20 PM
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
The year is relevent if you are talking about the tools we now have that makes it possible to learn to fly on your own. Technology like that which Horizon Hobby is putting in their new airplanes, i.e., VirtualInstructor technology, and AS3X stabalization makelearning on your own possible. There is NO denying that. When I joined my club, I was asked to fly my plane and do a couple of circuits after takeoff and then do a landing. Well I passed with flying colors. This is all after "going it alone." You alltend to imply that if you learn to fly by yourself, you are a danger to yourself and others. If that was the case, many of the guys I fly with at my club would definately tend to disagree with you. BTW - I still don't know what constitutes a "serious" flyer and a "real pilot."
03-19-2013, 12:50 PM
#56
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
ORIGINAL: GBLynden
I never said any of that. I swear, the bias in this thread is getting rediculous. News flash, most people don't fly stuff they make anymore. Along the same lines, most beginners start out at the hobby shop where most places recommend the Champ or something comparable. If you don't like that, tough. It is not going to go back to the way things used to be and it is only going to get ''worse''.
Also, just because some guy you thought you could ''fix'' made some mistakes doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with that methodology. Have any of you actually flown a Champ? The rudder is set-up like the ailerons on a four-channel, so going to a four-channel from a Champ is a natural progression. You just have more control with the four-channel plane because you have both. How that could be a bad trainer plane is laugheable.
Do you start people out with Dual Rates and Expo or do you let them go full rates and not progress up to that level over time?
ORIGINAL: jester_s1
GBLynden - You're making a lot more sense to me now too. I didn't catch that your point was for beginners to take it easy and not advance beyond their skill levels. Your first post implied that working through that series of planes on one's own would give one the skills to fly anything they want, which it usually won't. There is an element in the hobby these days that really rubs me the wrong way that essentially says, ''I don't want to work on skills. I just want to have fun flying and I don't want anybody telling me anything.'' I watched a guy enter and then exit the hobby last year who could have done well if he was inclined to listen to the voice of experience, but he just had to do it all on his own and then call to tell me how great he was. About two months later his 2 destroyed Champs and easily another $50 in spare parts were on Craigslist along with a junky RTF he bought that never worked.
GBLynden - You're making a lot more sense to me now too. I didn't catch that your point was for beginners to take it easy and not advance beyond their skill levels. Your first post implied that working through that series of planes on one's own would give one the skills to fly anything they want, which it usually won't. There is an element in the hobby these days that really rubs me the wrong way that essentially says, ''I don't want to work on skills. I just want to have fun flying and I don't want anybody telling me anything.'' I watched a guy enter and then exit the hobby last year who could have done well if he was inclined to listen to the voice of experience, but he just had to do it all on his own and then call to tell me how great he was. About two months later his 2 destroyed Champs and easily another $50 in spare parts were on Craigslist along with a junky RTF he bought that never worked.
Also, just because some guy you thought you could ''fix'' made some mistakes doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with that methodology. Have any of you actually flown a Champ? The rudder is set-up like the ailerons on a four-channel, so going to a four-channel from a Champ is a natural progression. You just have more control with the four-channel plane because you have both. How that could be a bad trainer plane is laugheable.
Do you start people out with Dual Rates and Expo or do you let them go full rates and not progress up to that level over time?
Umm yes you did say that
Once you have mastered those planes, you can fly just about anything
03-19-2013, 12:54 PM
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
ORIGINAL: Chucksolo69
The year is relevent if you are talking about the tools we now have that makes it possible to learn to fly on your own. Technology like that which Horizon Hobby is putting in their new airplanes, i.e., Virtual Instructor technology, and AS3X stabalization make learning on your own possible. There is NO denying that. When I joined my club, I was asked to fly my plane and do a couple of circuits after takeoff and then do a landing. Well I passed with flying colors. This is all after ''going it alone.'' You all tend to imply that if you learn tI still don't know what constitutes a ''serious'' flyer and a ''real pilot.''
The year is relevent if you are talking about the tools we now have that makes it possible to learn to fly on your own. Technology like that which Horizon Hobby is putting in their new airplanes, i.e., Virtual Instructor technology, and AS3X stabalization make learning on your own possible. There is NO denying that. When I joined my club, I was asked to fly my plane and do a couple of circuits after takeoff and then do a landing. Well I passed with flying colors. This is all after ''going it alone.'' You all tend to imply that if you learn tI still don't know what constitutes a ''serious'' flyer and a ''real pilot.''
03-19-2013, 01:20 PM
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
well said both opjose and bigedmustafa.
Chucksolo, a 'serious flyer' (being the airplane, not the pilot)
a 45 lb 200 MPH Turbine powered (pick from anyone of dozens of off the shelf airplanes).
anything powered by 20CC and up Gasser.
anything over 55 pounds... I'm not talking about a handful of airplanes, just in those three categories are at least two or three hundred different airplanes.
Have you ever seen a 6 Cell Lipo catch fire? if my kid had a toy that could do that sort of damage, I would not call it a toy.
I am by no means an elitist, heck I've got a Bixler, a dozen different RTF indoor type electric foamies and a dozen small EDF's (from a 50MM bae hawk to a twin 70MM MiG29)
I fly them in my backyard... I have a couple of helicopters that I fly in my Living Room.
but I ALSO have MANY gas / glow airplanes which DO NOT fit into the toy airplane category...
with all due respect, THAT is one person's opinion. I can think of many MANY people who have tried the 'teach yourself' mentality.... most quit. the few that did manage to teach themselves usually ended up joining a proper club.
(and ended up on a buddy box with an instructor because they had no concept of how to fly safely with others (no flying behind the flightline, announcing your physical presence on the runway, left hand traffic / right hand traffic) etc.)
you HAVE hit the nail on the head there! unfortunately since (MOST) segments of the hobby involve airplanes that will hurt you if not properly cared for, it's not USUALLY the best 'teach yourself how' Hobby. I don't see anyone piling scorn... but I DO see (the original poster) an rc pilot with a whopping TWO years of flying under his belt, staring a thread named 'Recommendations for those new to RC Flight'
NO disrespect is meant towards the original poster, but that is exactly like a second grader telling a Kindergarten kid 'don't listen to what your parents or teachers tell you, here are MY recommendations for how you should learn'
I'll admit, because of the fact that I have been immersed in the hobby for 45 years, and the fact that park flyers are relatively VERY new, when I think of the term 'Model Airplane' I DO NOT think 'toy'
I think 10 lb, .60 sized Pattern Airplane... capable of speeds in excess of 100MPH very certainly capable of doing serious harm.
you seem not to realize that although park flyers / small electrics, (what you have referred to as 'toy' airplanes) make up a considerable PORTION of this Sport,
there are many MANY more aspects which are not commonly visible to the uneducated layperson. (non modeler)
is it POSSIBLE to teach yourself how to fly? YES!
is it the BEST way? nope.
is it a GOOD IDEA? probably not.
Chucksolo, it is absolutely NOT my intent to belittle anyone's beliefs or opinions, I've read your other posts and I usually agree with you wholeheartedly.
I simply can not agree that 'self taught' is in anyone's best interests for this endeavor.
am I an Elitist?? I don't think so, maybe once I've gotten my Turbine waiver.
end rant. :-)
ORIGINAL: Chucksolo69
Please explain to me what a ''serious'' flyer is??? In all reality, all RC planes are basically toys be they made of foam or wood. That is exactly what I am talking about, the ''eliteism'' that seems so pervasive in this hobby. Why can't we all just enjoy the segment of the hobby we all like and not pile scorn on those that don't fit into someone's perception of what the hobby should be? It would be so much more enjoyable for all. After all, isn't that what drives so many newbies from joining a club?
Please explain to me what a ''serious'' flyer is??? In all reality, all RC planes are basically toys be they made of foam or wood. That is exactly what I am talking about, the ''eliteism'' that seems so pervasive in this hobby. Why can't we all just enjoy the segment of the hobby we all like and not pile scorn on those that don't fit into someone's perception of what the hobby should be? It would be so much more enjoyable for all. After all, isn't that what drives so many newbies from joining a club?
a 45 lb 200 MPH Turbine powered (pick from anyone of dozens of off the shelf airplanes).
anything powered by 20CC and up Gasser.
anything over 55 pounds... I'm not talking about a handful of airplanes, just in those three categories are at least two or three hundred different airplanes.
Have you ever seen a 6 Cell Lipo catch fire? if my kid had a toy that could do that sort of damage, I would not call it a toy.
I am by no means an elitist, heck I've got a Bixler, a dozen different RTF indoor type electric foamies and a dozen small EDF's (from a 50MM bae hawk to a twin 70MM MiG29)
I fly them in my backyard... I have a couple of helicopters that I fly in my Living Room.
but I ALSO have MANY gas / glow airplanes which DO NOT fit into the toy airplane category...
ORIGINAL: Chucksolo69
Personally, I didn't find my "go it alone" experiece frustrating at all.
Personally, I didn't find my "go it alone" experiece frustrating at all.
(and ended up on a buddy box with an instructor because they had no concept of how to fly safely with others (no flying behind the flightline, announcing your physical presence on the runway, left hand traffic / right hand traffic) etc.)
ORIGINAL: Chucksolo69
"Why can't we all just enjoy the segment of the hobby we all like and not pile scorn on those that don't fit into someone's perception of what the hobby should be?"
"Why can't we all just enjoy the segment of the hobby we all like and not pile scorn on those that don't fit into someone's perception of what the hobby should be?"
NO disrespect is meant towards the original poster, but that is exactly like a second grader telling a Kindergarten kid 'don't listen to what your parents or teachers tell you, here are MY recommendations for how you should learn'
I'll admit, because of the fact that I have been immersed in the hobby for 45 years, and the fact that park flyers are relatively VERY new, when I think of the term 'Model Airplane' I DO NOT think 'toy'
I think 10 lb, .60 sized Pattern Airplane... capable of speeds in excess of 100MPH very certainly capable of doing serious harm.
you seem not to realize that although park flyers / small electrics, (what you have referred to as 'toy' airplanes) make up a considerable PORTION of this Sport,
there are many MANY more aspects which are not commonly visible to the uneducated layperson. (non modeler)
is it POSSIBLE to teach yourself how to fly? YES!
is it the BEST way? nope.
is it a GOOD IDEA? probably not.
Chucksolo, it is absolutely NOT my intent to belittle anyone's beliefs or opinions, I've read your other posts and I usually agree with you wholeheartedly.
I simply can not agree that 'self taught' is in anyone's best interests for this endeavor.
am I an Elitist?? I don't think so, maybe once I've gotten my Turbine waiver.
end rant. :-)
03-19-2013, 01:23 PM
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
"you HAVE hit the nail on the head there! unfortunately since (MOST) segments of the hobby involve airplanes that will hurt you if not properly cared for, it's not USUALLY the best 'teach yourself how' Hobby. I don't see anyone piling scorn... but I DO see (the original poster) an rc pilot with a whopping TWO years of flying under his belt, staring a thread named 'Recommendations for those new to RC Flight"
"NO disrespect is meant towards the original poster, but that is exactly like a second grader telling a Kindergarten kid 'don't listen to what your parents or teachers tell you, here are MY recommendations for how you should learn
"
I know he was talking about the plane.Ijust don't get whatis so "serious" about them. And believe me, I know EXACTLY where jester is coming from. He was one of the guyswho told me I was wasting my time and money. This is what I meant when I made the comment about "eliteism." If the above quote about the second grader isn't scorn I don't know what is. You guys gotta lighten up a bit here. I don't get why this is about the ONLY forum that doesn't budge on the "learn to fly yourself" thing. He has the right to post what he wants as we all have. My concern is that he is being ridiculed by those who think they are better than he. The whole "it is absolutelynecessary to get an instructor to learn to fly an RC plane" is, in this day and age, outmoded and completely untrue. Any RC aircraft of 2 pounds and over is cabable of serious damage to people and property, foamie or not. You think that just because some of us fly strictly foamies that we aren't concerned about safety??? Those of us who do fly exclusively electric are VERY aware of what a 12" prop can do to soft flesh. I find it tiresome and ridiculous that just because someone flies only gas/glow 6 foot +wingspan planes that that person is better than one that flies a 63" wingspan foamie warbird. That my friend, is certainly "eliteism' no matter how you try to whitewash it. I am so glad that my club is not like that.
"NO disrespect is meant towards the original poster, but that is exactly like a second grader telling a Kindergarten kid 'don't listen to what your parents or teachers tell you, here are MY recommendations for how you should learn
"
I know he was talking about the plane.Ijust don't get whatis so "serious" about them. And believe me, I know EXACTLY where jester is coming from. He was one of the guyswho told me I was wasting my time and money. This is what I meant when I made the comment about "eliteism." If the above quote about the second grader isn't scorn I don't know what is. You guys gotta lighten up a bit here. I don't get why this is about the ONLY forum that doesn't budge on the "learn to fly yourself" thing. He has the right to post what he wants as we all have. My concern is that he is being ridiculed by those who think they are better than he. The whole "it is absolutelynecessary to get an instructor to learn to fly an RC plane" is, in this day and age, outmoded and completely untrue. Any RC aircraft of 2 pounds and over is cabable of serious damage to people and property, foamie or not. You think that just because some of us fly strictly foamies that we aren't concerned about safety??? Those of us who do fly exclusively electric are VERY aware of what a 12" prop can do to soft flesh. I find it tiresome and ridiculous that just because someone flies only gas/glow 6 foot +wingspan planes that that person is better than one that flies a 63" wingspan foamie warbird. That my friend, is certainly "eliteism' no matter how you try to whitewash it. I am so glad that my club is not like that.
03-19-2013, 01:32 PM
#61
RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
ORIGINAL: Chucksolo69
I know he was talking about the plane. I just don't get what is so ''serious'' about them.
I know he was talking about the plane. I just don't get what is so ''serious'' about them.
they tend to make a seriously big smokin' hole.
ANYONE with the cash can go and buy one. and (try to) fly it in a baseball field.
and hit me (or you, or my kid) in the head with it.
THAT is what is so serious about them.
03-19-2013, 01:41 PM
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
I have been to such events. As I said above, any RC plane over 2 lbs is capable of serious damage. You posted before I had finished mine.
03-19-2013, 02:10 PM
#64
RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
you've been to such events, you're well aware of the damage that a 2 lb airplane can make, and you don't get what's so serious about them....
Alrighty then. :-)
your point is taken (by me at least) that it is POSSIBLE to teach yourself how to fly an rc airplane. read what I wrote, I never said:
"it is absolutely necessary to get an instructor to learn to fly an RC plane"
I said (replying to a post named 'Recommendations for those new to RC Flight')
'is it POSSIBLE to teach yourself how to fly? YES!
is it the BEST way? nope.
is it a GOOD IDEA? probably not.'
I do NOT fly big / gas / glow fueled airplanes, last season I burned a grand total of ZERO liquid fuel.
2012 for me was nothing but electric.
I DO NOT think that just because you fly exclusively electric that you're not concerned about safety,
I was responding to your statement 'Please explain to me what a "serious" flyer is??? In all reality, all RC planes are basically toys be they made of foam or wood'
would it have been less scornful if I had said something to the effect of 'an RC pilot with only two years of seasonal flying experience' instead of the 2nd grader / kindergartner remark?
maybe, but it would not have gotten the point across that two years is not exactly a lot of flying time.
Alrighty then. :-)
your point is taken (by me at least) that it is POSSIBLE to teach yourself how to fly an rc airplane. read what I wrote, I never said:
"it is absolutely necessary to get an instructor to learn to fly an RC plane"
I said (replying to a post named 'Recommendations for those new to RC Flight')
'is it POSSIBLE to teach yourself how to fly? YES!
is it the BEST way? nope.
is it a GOOD IDEA? probably not.'
I do NOT fly big / gas / glow fueled airplanes, last season I burned a grand total of ZERO liquid fuel.
2012 for me was nothing but electric.
I DO NOT think that just because you fly exclusively electric that you're not concerned about safety,
I was responding to your statement 'Please explain to me what a "serious" flyer is??? In all reality, all RC planes are basically toys be they made of foam or wood'
would it have been less scornful if I had said something to the effect of 'an RC pilot with only two years of seasonal flying experience' instead of the 2nd grader / kindergartner remark?
maybe, but it would not have gotten the point across that two years is not exactly a lot of flying time.
03-19-2013, 02:20 PM
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
You take things out of context. I do know how serious it is flying any RC plane is. My comments were centered around the "this is my serious plane." comments. Look, I am with 95% of what you said. I am just not convinced about that strict adherence to the "you must get an instructor if you want to learn to fly." mantra. I have been on threads where I definately try to get across that RC flying of ANY type of aircraft should not be taken lightly. I have also been on threads (mostly on other forums) where too many folks take the "toy" thing too lightly. Saying that a 2-6 lb foamie is a toy that is incapable of serious damage is irresponsible at best. I was not the first one on this thread to all foamies "toys." Which I assure you I don't believe for a minute. My main focus on this thread is that GBLynden is correct when he states that it IS POSSIBLE to learn to fly an RC aircraft using the planes he listed. That's all. After a while it deteriorates into the "get and instructor' thing and goes downhill from there. I myself, on other forums have often suggested to a rank newbie with that first jet that a better beginner plane was better and they might want to find a club and instructor. But, it is absolutely necessary today.........the answer to that is no.
03-19-2013, 07:44 PM
#66
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
I was taught by a fellow who was a full scale glider piot. He started me on a two channel glider using a hi-start. Learned how to use elevator and rudder. After that we moved on to a glow powered high wing trainer that was three channel. Rudder, elevator and throttle. The next phase was another high wing trainer. Throttle, ailerons,rudder and throttle. Both glow trainers had a steerable nose gear. The last phase was a high wing trainer J3 Cub 1/4 scale tail dragger. That concluded my fixed wing training and it took about two years to complete. After learning how to fly fixed wing aircraft I progressed into rotary wing flying and guess what I had no instructor. I almost crashed on my maiden flight because I failed to use rudder correctly in the turns. After that incident I found another helicopter pilot who talked me through the maneuvers. My whole point to all of this is not do this on your own. Find a mentor who flies like a full scale pilot. He is usually the one who practices touch and goes. Don't be side tracked by the hot dog 3D pilots. I have found that although they can fly well they make terrible instructors.
03-20-2013, 05:01 AM
#67
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
Instructors that do touch and goes...love 'em! What an opportunity to practice everything that is important about teaching a new person to fly well.
When instructing a student, my technique to simplify the learning process is to focus on the fundamentals of the pattern and landing in BOTH directions. By the time they are soloed (being able to perform a pattern and landing or go-around in BOTH directions and fly a figure-8) the student has all they need to safely employ most four channel model aircraft. Some have soloed in 8 flights, others have taken 16 flights...some of this is up to the student. Also, after solo, progression is up to the student. Working on-speed landings in the first 1/3 of the runway and beginning aerobatics will cause the student to surpass peers that choose to "bang the sticks" without a goal to improve.
I love my Arrow trainer and keep it around to remind folks how much fun a trainer can be.
One thing we are lacking in the RC aircraft instructor realm is instructor quality control...but it is a hobby, with volunteers after all.
Choose your instructor carefully.
When instructing a student, my technique to simplify the learning process is to focus on the fundamentals of the pattern and landing in BOTH directions. By the time they are soloed (being able to perform a pattern and landing or go-around in BOTH directions and fly a figure-8) the student has all they need to safely employ most four channel model aircraft. Some have soloed in 8 flights, others have taken 16 flights...some of this is up to the student. Also, after solo, progression is up to the student. Working on-speed landings in the first 1/3 of the runway and beginning aerobatics will cause the student to surpass peers that choose to "bang the sticks" without a goal to improve.
I love my Arrow trainer and keep it around to remind folks how much fun a trainer can be.
One thing we are lacking in the RC aircraft instructor realm is instructor quality control...but it is a hobby, with volunteers after all.
Choose your instructor carefully.
03-20-2013, 08:49 AM
#68
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
ORIGINAL: AMA 74894
...You HAVE hit the nail on the head there! unfortunately since (MOST) segments of the hobby involve airplanes that will hurt you if not properly cared for, it's not USUALLY the best 'teach yourself how' Hobby. I don't see anyone piling scorn... but I DO see (the original poster) an rc pilot with a whopping TWO years of flying under his belt, staring a thread named 'Recommendations for those new to RC Flight'
...You HAVE hit the nail on the head there! unfortunately since (MOST) segments of the hobby involve airplanes that will hurt you if not properly cared for, it's not USUALLY the best 'teach yourself how' Hobby. I don't see anyone piling scorn... but I DO see (the original poster) an rc pilot with a whopping TWO years of flying under his belt, staring a thread named 'Recommendations for those new to RC Flight'
The veteran RC pilots who have been flying for decades have plenty to offer and to teach, but they don't always remember what it is like to be brand new at this. They sometimes don't consider that a new pilot may not know things that they take for granted. I think what is great about a club training environment, much like RCU, is you can collect a wide range of opinions and form your own based on the information you've gathered.
Chucksolo69, GBLynden, and I all started out trying to teach ourselves to fly on our own with electric parkflyers. Chucksolo69 and GBLynden were successful, I was not. I related my experiences so that folks who are having similar difficulties can learn what I did to become a successful pilot. My intent wasn't to categorically refute GBLynden's suggestions, I simply wanted to offer my alternative experience.
After I started flying my Nexstar well, I went back to my Aeroturd Challenger and discovered that I could fly it a lot better after working with my glow trainer. I wasn't particularly advanced in years when I started flying, and I'm a life-long video gamer, but I simply couldn't manage to learn to fly radio control on my own.
I don't think that learning to fly on your own should be dismissed out of hand any more than I believe that the club training tradition should be dismissed as too old fashioned. New pilots need to know there are several ways to learn and that there are advantages and disadvantages to each.
03-20-2013, 09:21 AM
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
In almost ALL cases, going it alone should NEVER be the advice given to a beginner.
Going it alone, should be the exception when both need and proper conditions warrant it.
03-21-2013, 07:39 AM
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
So opjose, you are basically saying that Horizon Hobby should stop marketing planes like the HZ Champ, Firebird Stratos, Super Cub and Glasair Sportsman. Telling beginners that they can learn to fly these planes by themselves is printed right on the box of these stellar foamie trainers. Is Horizon Hobby misleading or lying tothe beginner RC pilot? I dont' think so. I learned on 3 of those planes very successfully; and as for wasting money, those 3planes all cost less than $400.00 total. I had more than that in 1 RC truck. Technology has rendered obsolete, a lot of the old school way of thinking .
A few weeks ago, I witnessed a young father bring his 2 year old daughter to our informal field and proceed to fly a Hobbyzone Firebird Stratos for the first time. Sure, he made a couple of rough landings, but in a couple of hours, he was flying the plane well and safely. It can and is being done by a lot of newbie RC pilots.
A few weeks ago, I witnessed a young father bring his 2 year old daughter to our informal field and proceed to fly a Hobbyzone Firebird Stratos for the first time. Sure, he made a couple of rough landings, but in a couple of hours, he was flying the plane well and safely. It can and is being done by a lot of newbie RC pilots.
03-21-2013, 07:48 AM
#71
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
ORIGINAL: Chucksolo69
So opjose, you are basically saying that Horizon Hobby should stop marketing planes like the HZ Champ, Firebird Stratos, Super Cub and Glasair Sportsman. Telling beginners that they can learn to fly these planes by themselves is printed right on the box of these stellar foamie trainers. Is Horizon Hobby misleading or lying to the beginner RC pilot? I dont' think so. I learned on 3 of those planes very successfully; and as for wasting money, those 3 planes all cost less than $400.00 total. I had more than that in 1 RC truck. Technology has rendered obsolete, a lot of the old school way of thinking .
A few weeks ago, I witnessed a young father bring his 2 year old daughter to our informal field and proceed to fly a Hobbyzone Firebird Stratos for the first time. Sure, he made a couple of rough landings, but in a couple of hours, he was flying the plane well and safely. It can and is being done by a lot of newbie RC pilots.
So opjose, you are basically saying that Horizon Hobby should stop marketing planes like the HZ Champ, Firebird Stratos, Super Cub and Glasair Sportsman. Telling beginners that they can learn to fly these planes by themselves is printed right on the box of these stellar foamie trainers. Is Horizon Hobby misleading or lying to the beginner RC pilot? I dont' think so. I learned on 3 of those planes very successfully; and as for wasting money, those 3 planes all cost less than $400.00 total. I had more than that in 1 RC truck. Technology has rendered obsolete, a lot of the old school way of thinking .
A few weeks ago, I witnessed a young father bring his 2 year old daughter to our informal field and proceed to fly a Hobbyzone Firebird Stratos for the first time. Sure, he made a couple of rough landings, but in a couple of hours, he was flying the plane well and safely. It can and is being done by a lot of newbie RC pilots.
03-21-2013, 08:10 AM
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
Why? Do you think yourself better than those that learn on their own? This is why I say that "eliteism" is so prevalent in this hobby. Ithink I will go quietly now. Your post has just proven my point.
03-21-2013, 10:37 AM
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
ORIGINAL: Chucksolo69
So opjose, you are basically saying that Horizon Hobby should stop marketing planes like the HZ Champ, Firebird Stratos, Super Cub and Glasair Sportsman. Telling beginners that they can learn to fly these planes by themselves is printed right on the box of these stellar foamie trainers. Is Horizon Hobby misleading or lying to the beginner RC pilot? I dont' think so. I learned on 3 of those planes very successfully.
So opjose, you are basically saying that Horizon Hobby should stop marketing planes like the HZ Champ, Firebird Stratos, Super Cub and Glasair Sportsman. Telling beginners that they can learn to fly these planes by themselves is printed right on the box of these stellar foamie trainers. Is Horizon Hobby misleading or lying to the beginner RC pilot? I dont' think so. I learned on 3 of those planes very successfully.
The Supercub is not a great trainer and should be moved out of the "first planes" along with the Champ. There are MUCH better choices available for the "do-it yourselfer".
The Stratos is nice and better than the Cub but features no ailerons. If you remove the gear it holds up better to grass landings. It's a better choice than the Cubs.
The Multiplex clones fare better with the higher prop, but the Stratos does better in winds than the Cub.
The Sportsman is a bit too much for a novice and they usually end up with immediately broken props and gear if not wings and tails too.
What YOU did is anecdotal and does not represent what a wealth of experience has taught us is a good approach for novices.
I learned on a non-traditional trainer too, but that doesn't mean a thing.
03-21-2013, 10:46 AM
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
Nobody said you cant go learn to fly yourself with a foam plane, "i did although it didn't help much with a traditional 4ch trainer" but given the choice it is definitely not the "best" way to learn. Having over $400 in a truck seems completely irrelevant, they are much more complex machines than a 3ch foamie, I have more than that in a truck also, you can spend whatever you want to spend on a truck so I don't see the point.
03-21-2013, 12:57 PM
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RE: Recommendations for those new to RC Flight
ORIGINAL: Chucksolo69
Why? Do you think yourself better than those that learn on their own? This is why I say that ''eliteism'' is so prevalent in this hobby. I think I will go quietly now. Your post has just proven my point.
Why? Do you think yourself better than those that learn on their own? This is why I say that ''eliteism'' is so prevalent in this hobby. I think I will go quietly now. Your post has just proven my point.
Not many people CAN or WILL successfully learn on their own, and - IF - those who do are careful, check rules and regs, and LISTEN, then all the more power to them.
That not-withstanding, "doing it alone" is not good advice to give to a novice UNLESS there are mitigating reasons to do so.