jsr1017

I'm coming back from a ten year hiatus from R/C planes and looking for advice on current radio tech. Back then 72 MHz was the only tech there was, and they had to be very carefully guarded at the field lest inadvertently turning one on at the wrong time cause someone else to crash. I'm gathering that with current 2.4 GHz tech, that's not so much of a problem anymore, since the receiver and transmitter bond with each other and the rx will ignore any signal that's not from it's own receiver - how cool is that? I've done a cursory search through the beginner's forum here, the sticky at the top here didn't have any links about basic radio tech. Maybe I'm overthinking it?

At the risk of starting a flame war I'll also ask what the "best" brand out there is today. Ten years ago I was living in Germany and the radio of choice was Graupner (which I think, but am not certain, was the European brand for JR). There was also German manufacturer named Multiplex that was used a lot by elite sailplane pilots, IIRC. Today here in the States it seems to me like Spektrum pretty much dominates the market - I see that a lot of the ARFs come with Spektrum receivers and/or servos preinstalled. I also see that Futaba is apparently still a pretty big name, on their website I found the 18MZ, with a very sexy color touch panel, for around $3k (!) (drool). But at my local hobby shop it seemed like pretty much all they sold was Spektrum. Are they really all they seemed to be cracked up to be? I don't want to start out with a "toy" radio, I'd rather get a medium- to high-end TX that will serve me well for a long time (but not the 18MZ, sadly).

I plan on starting back by recreating my old scratch-built Speedy Bee (http://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=2315) and am hoping I can find an OS FS-26 four-stroke to power it just like my original. That had to have been my favorite plane of them all to fly, what an amazing sound coming out of the four-banger as I did walking speed slow passes down the runway. Also want to do a Gee Bee Z, that was my pride and joy as a scratch builder, but my end goal is a .90 size heli - I dreamed of them in my earlier days but couldn't even come close to affording it, but I'm older and better situated now.

Rodney

You do not state where you live, I'm assuming somewhere in the USA. If so, any of the major brands are very good, Futaba, Spectrum, Hitec, , Airtronics and Tactic. You will find everyone claims that theirs is best. I decided to try them all, I have the Futaba, Spectrum DX5e, Spectrum 6i, Airtronics 8000 and the Tactic 650. All are excellent performers but the Tactic gives the most performance for the dollar, ever bit as good as the Spectrum 6i and much easier to program. The Spectum has the best record for having backup by the manufacturer, their response and timely help is the best in the business closely followed by Hitec should you require repair or maintenance. If you belong to a club, I'd see what is the most popular there as you will get lots of help should you require assistance in programing or setting up your planes. You won't go wrong no matter which brand you get.

AllModesR/C

Hitec is Japanese and Graupner is German right?

jsr1017

Thanks for the reply. Sorry, should have made it clearer that I'm back in the US now - my return in 2006 was what interrupted my R/C hobby. There was no way I could get all the models and associated gear on the container that was bringing our stuff back. Graupner is indeed German, they manufactured a ton of kits and ARFS but I seem to remember that as far as radios went they just relabeled JR units (not sure about that though). I'll look into Spektrum a little bit more, they weren't around in my earlier days (not in Europe at least), but they sure seem to be popular now. I'm not in a club yet, but will be come spring ... it's too dang cold here in Minnesota right now.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

You are correct, most of the bind and fly ARF planes are Spektrum/JR. Spektrum/JR was the first to hit the market with 2.4 and people flocked to them. Good radios. Futaba and Hitec took there time and came out a couple years later with there offerings and the bugs were worked out by then but JR/Spektrum held the market at that point and also improved there products. These are the big three with Airtronic being a good radio but they never have been in the front running. There are now several more on the market and for a lot less money then the big three. You really can't go wrong with any of them so it's just up to you to look at them all, see what one you like the programming they use. When I was looking I liked the Hitec 9 the best but it was the way it programed and the feel.
Other then then the need to use a frequency board these days the 2.4 really isn't any different then the old 72 in operation. Some manufactures do have a better selection of receivers then others so that is also something to think about.
If you have a nice high end old radio they can also be changed to 2.4 just by replacing the module. Lots of choices and ways to do things.

rcjetflyer0718-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

My radios l fly with are Airtronics, Futaba, Hitec, and JR. Some of my JRs are setup with Hitec 2.4 modules. l don't use spectrum. If I was in the market for a new medium to high end radio l would go with a JR 11 channel or a Futaba 14 channel. I fly in a dirty RF environment and need a strong signal, I would not have a problem buying a new spectrum with dsmx but would not fly with dsm2 because l have seen many radio failures with dsm2 and dsm and orange receivers. If you fly in a rural area buy whichever one you want but if you fly in a urban area go to the local club fields and see what is working for them.

jester_s1

Spektrum is a great radio if you like to build and repair, because their ongoing reliability issues will ensure that you always have a broken model to work on. (sorry guys, I just couldn't resist, but the OP can do a search for "unexplained crash" or "Spektrum brownout" and get page after page of anecdotes from Spektrum users and their disappointments.)

The good news though is that all the other brands have excellent service records. You mentioned Graupner; their 2.4ghz radios are fairly new to the market, but they have really made a splash. The prices can't be beat by anyone other than the really cheap Chinese radios (Turnigy, FlySky, FR Sky, etc) and the construction quality looks as good as anything else on the market. The receivers are priced well too. Also, their radios have telemetry and will sync up with Graupner ESCs to give you tachometer data. If I were new to the hobby and not already committed to Airtronics equipment (which has been flawless for me BTW) I would buy a Graupner 12 channel radio.

You say you want to go mid grade, which I think is smart. That puts you into the 9-12 channel radios in probably the $400-$600 price range where you have lots of excellent choices. Pick the features you like and place your order. You really can't go wrong.

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

Sorry to be disagreeable but I fly a lot, a LOT more than the average modeler. I have Spektrum, Futaba, Hitec and JR equipment.

I dont have any more or less problems with Spektrum than any others.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

I agree with Andy completely, all the brown out problems were in the first couple of years. Spektrum/JR also offered to replace all there early receivers that had the long lock out times then told everyone to use 6 volt packs. It was an early teething problem with the system but something that has been answered with the up-grades. I haven't seen a brown out problem in a very long time.

Hawk131

I have seen unexplained crashes on futaba as well, including a turbine, yes the DSM had problems and a few with DSM2.

jsr1017

Thanks for all the input. I'm sure there are stories of unexplained crashes with any brand of radio if you look. At this point I'm leaning towards the Futaba 14SG - seems to be the top of their line apart from the 18MZ, but I don't have $3k laying around for that. Found a local shop here in the Minneapolis area that has the 14SG in stock for $550. Seems like that's a good investment that will take me all the way from simple two- or three-channel sailplane, to the 4-channel Speedy Bee that I'm starting to cut parts for, up to a nitro heli

One thing that's not quite clear to me yet regarding basic radio tech: 10 years ago, it didn't seem to matter at all which brand of servos you put with which receiver - they all took the same three-lead connector, with an analog signal telling the servo where to go. Now I'm reading about full-digital servos and SBUS technology ... are the situations in which servo X can't talk to receiver Y because they are speaking some proprietary protocol between them? I found this page: http://www.futaba-rc.com/receivers/air.html which has charts showing compatibility between transmitters and receivers, but still need to learn, especially about the protocols between receivers and servos.

The specific reason I'm asking is that I remembered another model from my olden days that I'd love to re-create - the Libelle from a German manufacturer, Stefan Hoellein. The quality of those kits are absolutely stunning - that parts are cut on a CNC mill instead of die- or laser-cut and the Libelle was a wonderfully relaxing flying experience. But the newer version I linked recommends 4.4g servos for the air brakes. I could order the servos along with the kit itself, but is there any reason to think I'd have a problem getting them to work with the R7008SB receiver (or any other Futaba mini/micro receiver)?

EDIT: found this Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servo_control that does a good job of explaining the PWM control protocol that "classic" analog servos seem to expect.

EDIT 2: found this thread that describes how a guy reverse-engineered the SBUS protocol, which I'm starting to understand is Futaba-propietary. So I'm starting to think that any servo that's not specifically a Futaba SBUS servo with an on-board decoder is going to be expecting the same PWM pulses to be coming down the signal wire?

jester_s1

If you go with the standard receiver setup where you plug each servo into the corresponding channel on the receiver, everything will be compatible with everything. There is the rare quirk where some of the newest super fast signal protocols won't work with old extra slow analog servos, but that's easy enough to avoid. Airtronics has an issue with that if you use their FHSS3 protocol that pretty much requires digital servos to keep up with it. But otherwise, it's the same old 3 wire connector we've had for over 20 years.

jsr1017

Hmm ... I had been leaning towards the Futaba 14SG, remember that I'm figuring it's better to make a more significant investment up-front that will take me from simple sailplanes up to complex scale models or helis. But after doing some more research and reading the manuals online, I'm starting to change my mind and think that the Spektrum DX9 might be a better investment. It looks to me like the Spektrum is a little more feature-rich, also offers telemetry features, and I don't *really* think I'll ever need more than 9 channels. Plus, with the Spektrum I at least have access to the whole bind-n-fly universe, which would be pretty much closed to me with the Futaba. Now, I'm not really that interested in BNF, with the possible exception of one of the small Blade electric helis (maybe the 130c or 180cfx). Can't use a Futaba tx with those.

The DX9 is at the same price point as the Futaba, both systems offer a wide range of receivers

Any input on that specific choice - Futaba 14SG or Spektrum DX9?

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

Futaba guys are going to recommend the 14, Spektrum fans the DX

Go see how they fit in your hands, try it with a neck strap, etc.

They are both good radios, I have both and can't really say I prefer one over the other.

jsr1017

I suppose you're right, Barracuda ... probably not going to get much more than anecdotes or personal preferences for responses. At that price point, it's should be safe to say that neither one is a "toy", and either one will have enough in the features and programmability department to keep me satisfied for several years at least. So as you said, it'll come down to *my* personal preferences as to ergonomics and so on. At this point I'd have to say the Spektrum is winning out in my mind, if for no other reason than that I'm very interested in the Blade helis and would have to have a Spektrum to fly those (at least, the BNF models).

Lomcevak Duck

My Feedback: (14)

I have always been a Futaba guy. But I wouldn't cry very long if I woke up tomorrow and JR/Spektrum was the only thing left. At this point, they are both excellent systems.

I bought a 9C in early 2002 when they first came out. I even upgraded the module to 2.4GHz at some point. About a year ago I bought a 14SG and used it for maybe three months. It is an incredibly feature-rich transmitter, and the telemetry is nice.

But, after a few months of flying with it, I sold it and went back to my 9C. That is not to say that I did not like the 14SG; I did. But my 9C feels better in my hands (probably because I have flown with it for what, 13 years now?) and I know the programming so well that I could probably work in the phone tech support for Futaba.

Before I bought the 14SG, I tried several of the competitors. I played with the DX9, JR 12X, Futaba 10C, Futaba 12Z, Futaba 12FG, and a few others. I liked the 14SG best, but you won't go wrong by picking any of them.

Of course, if you are like me, and the telemetry and SBUS technology is not important to you, there are boat loads of older module based transmitters like the 9C, 9C Super, and 10C available at reasonable prices.

jester_s1

It's hard to make a comparison because the two radios are so different. With one you get a lot of channels, and with the other you get a lot of features. Here's a thought on the BNF issue: I fly Airtronics and have the SD-10G radio. It does everything I need a radio to do, so I won't be upgrading for a long time. But I wanted to fly the UM planes and helis indoors. So I bought a DX6i for that. It's plenty capable for everything up to a 6 channel collective pitch heli. so it serves the purpose. I spent less for both of my radios than a DX9 costs, and I prefer my SD-10G over a DX9 for my bigger planes.

AwwNaww

I did what jester did. I really like airtronics but adding a DX6i adds a lot of other options. I don't think that there are any truly unreliable radios out there. Just don't buy a fresh off the design board radio until someone else has proven it. Many of the brands had a "brown out" type problem early on. If you ever think that you might want to buddy box with someone, a common platform is helpful.

jester_s1

Actually, only one brand had a brown out problem: Spektrum. Every other manufacturer designed their receivers to still work at lower voltages than they'll ever encounter in actual use. It's only Spektrum who decided that it was ok for their receiver to shut down at 4 volts and then go through a reboot process when the power comes back up. Futaba receivers had as issue with shutting down due to heat very early on, but that was corrected and hasn't been an issue since. Airtronics and Hitec came to the 2.4ghz game a bit later after seeing the problems that others had. Neither of those brands have had any kind of consistent performance problems where a design flaw is the likely culprit.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

Those were the days!! Every time I went to the field there were always a number of brown outs. Then JR/Spektrum came out with a post on there site telling people to use 6 volt packs but they kept giving you a 4.8 volt pack with the new radios?? They also offered to replace your RX with there new improved one, it only locked you out for a second or two. They seem to have that little problem taken care of now but it was fun to watch during the troubled times. Still, people kept buying them?

AwwNaww

I was referring to the "brown out" as a generic new model issue. Like gimble problems with JR and the RDS8k, the voltage issue (true brown out) and heat issues with futaba. I don't care to touch any truly new platform until it has been in general circulation for 6mos.

jester_s1

Actually Gray Beard, Spektrum receivers will still reset if they go below 4 volts. Spektrum's fix was to simple make the reset quicker. The original design took 4 seconds to reset, which was way too long to do you any good. The current ones take about a second, which may give you time to save your model, maybe not. What bothers me even more about Spektrum though is the apparent lack of quality control. Unexplained losses of control continue to plague the brand, albeit far less often than they did early on. If a guy did some searching on this and other forums, he'd probably find that the posts about Spektrum failures outnumber all of the other brands combined.

rcjetflyer0718-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

I purchased an Airtronics RDS8K about 1 year after they came out and started having it lock up on me sent it in under warranty said they did a "software update" . Used it for another 18 months started doing the same thing sent it back charged me $61.00 to replace transmitter and receiver antennas. I no longer trust it for anything other than small electrics. Ive also had trouble with my Futaba 2.4 they replaced the case and 2 pots and l was charged $14.00 because l told them l had been a super saver club member for 10 years. I still use that radio and it must be close to 10 years old.

jsr1017

So, should I be rethinking my intention to go with Spektrum now? Sure, I can find lots of threads talking about Spektrum brownouts if the rx voltage drops below 4 volts. One could take the position though, that letting your rx voltage drop that low is really just another kind of pilot error... couldn't you?

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

A couple of things to consider.
Spektrum has a huge market share, so you're going to hear more reports of any issues.
Drive any receiver below its operating voltage and it will reset. Even 72mhz, thought they would resume normal operation a lot faster than the early Spektrum systems, which has now been addressed and they recover as fast as any other system.

Watch Pauls 2.4 Radio Clinic from Radio Carbon art if you want to see practical systems testing, the servos lost power before the receivers rebooted in every case I remember in that video and that included Futaba, Spektrum, and Airtronics.

An adequate power system is a requirement in our planes. A 4.8v system can be adequate if its properly looked after and addresses the capacity required but obviously a 6v system gives you some leeway, and folks like Tony Stillman from Radio South were touting that years before 2.4ghz spread spectrum systems were introduced