Jackjet

My Feedback: (1)

To All,
to All who responded-some very good points were made.As for myself-it someone wants to pay me for teaching them how to fly-I wll accept the money.I need to buy a new turbine for my F-4.


Jackjet

seaducer

Hello all. New to this forum and to the hobby as well. My thought on paying for instruction is as follows;

What organization does the instructor go to for certification, and what are the test standards for such certification?? To my knowledge these standards are non-existent at this time. (USA)

You may be the hottest jock at the field, capable of making any plane do anything, but then again such people don't always make the best teachers. How do I know that the only service you are competent to provide is to recover my plane when I input the required commands to induce that awesome looking flat spin? Can you convey your knowledge and experience to me? Who says you can? How will you back that statement up?

As for other hobbies that teach for a price, say SCUBA, the instructors have to take an extensive course to teach, and at least at my local dive shops, if you can't certify in the normal class time, they work extra at no charge and retest for free. This, my friends, is called a guarantee. If I am to pay for something, I want one.

No doubt many a cherry has spent 100's on a plane only to destroy it 3 minutes into it's maiden flight, and would have gladly paid 30 bucks to an instructor if only to have saved their plane, but you're not only providing that service, but also to teach them how not to get into trouble, as well as how to recover when they do. Can you do that? And how can you prove it before I give you my money? The answer is an instructor rating on your license, and until you can get one, you shouldn't charge for instruction.

fliers1

1. It's nice to have a choice where to get instruction.

2. Who certified the Wright Brothers?

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors

jmf2001

It is unfortunate that so many people in this world don't see things the way they really are or who hear something and cant figure it out.
In regard to getting paid. I don't know what people think when you say "getting"piid. First of all it really isn't worth the money. Now in regarding to certifing instructors. When some one goes to the field and a member is going to teach them to fly how do you know if they are capable or not? You ask other guys at the field. It is true that many good fliers do not make good instructors. I have seen to many good fliers teaching new comers and see them wipe out a plane.
When I was teaching for pay ( now I only teach new club members free at our field on Sundays ) I started by helping the student pick out his first plane. After that was done I told them to call me when they had a problem. On the days we would fly the student would bring his plane down to the field with him and we would go over what he had do so far. They were helped all thru the construction of the model plus covering and installing the radio and engine. This was all part of instruction.
After the student had enough stick plane on my plane we would start to fly his plane. So you see it wasen't just flying that I was teaching. And remember this was all done for 100 bucks.
Till today I have the hobby shops in San Juan send me would be paying students. I tell them to join our club or send them to a club close to were they live.
'Thanks for listning

slam

To me, every other sport has paid instructors, so why not R/C?



Not so. You can be trained in full-size Soaring for no charge by the instructor and, yes quality varies greatly, so you ask around. Full-size flying risks your life as well as your dollars so if you're smart you check around carefully. Certification means very little in most sports. The attitude of the instructor is what counts. I personally wouldn't have minded paying my last and current instructor to learn to fly RC models, but there were others that were qualified that would have to pay me to train me .

seaducer

Hello again,

The point I was trying to make about Instructor ratings was that before I hand over my hard earned dollars, I want to see proof you have the goods to teach me something. If you are going to teach pro-bono I am more ready to take the gamble my time won't be wasted without proof of a stranger's competency. The real danger here I am afraid of is increased regulations. Try this one on for size:

The AMA hears about people willing to pay and receive money for flight instruction, and instead of fighting it decides to offer an Instructor Certification Course to help "improve" the skills of new pilots faster and hopefully draw more interest in the hobby.

Problem: nobody wants to pay to take the course because you can already teach without paying for the privilege.

Solution: The AMA states only pilots checked out with AMA Certified Instructors can fly at chartered fields and events. After all, people have been seriously hurt and/or killed by model aircraft, and we're all about safety right?? This will force people or clubs to send at least one member to the course.

I can drag this on and on until the point where only AMA licensed pilots can purchase the materials needed to send an aircraft aloft, such as the restriction in the SCUBA industry, siting the same safety mantra, but do you really want to go there??

Now, I am not at all against people getting paid for a service, provided they can prove it AND back it up. The posts here about why they should be paid are excellent, especially those who provide their own planes and help in the building aspect. BTW the ONLY way I would pay for instruction is if you provided your own stuff. But now for the real test...

If you want to be paid for instruction, but denounced the idea about being certified to teach, why? Why wouldn't YOU pay for and take a class in order to charge me for the same thing? Please respond to this before the rest of it...

fliers1

Seducer,
The reason there is no certification for RC flight instructors is because there is no where to go to get certified.
The reason people will pay for instruction is because they cannot receive as much free instruction from their clubs as they would like. Most clubs usually only offer free instruction once or maybe twice a week. Some clubs don't offer any instruction at all. Like yourself, you said that there are no clubs in your area.

BTW, AMA doesn't want to hear anything about paid instruction much less decide to regulate it. The idea of paying someone to teach you is to get help at your convenience and not that of your for-favor instructor. Also, if you pay by the hour, you will receive an hour of sticktime, despite the qualifications or teaching skill of the instructor.
Keep in mind that in many cases, your free instructor may be the best flier in the world but lousy at teaching.

Some clubs make their instructors take a qualification test before they let him teach, but for the most part, you have no idea if the club instructor has a clue on how to teach or not. You take what you can get, even if the best that he can do is only keep you from crashing but not teach you a thing, you are much better off than trying to teach yourself how to fly. BTW, I would like to know who would teach me to fly real gliders for free. I always wanted to learn how to fly and if I could do it for free, I might give it a go.

I have yet to see anyone place an ad with their phone number to teach anyone and everyone at the beginner's convenience for free. Oh yeah, I did see one ad in the MAAC magazine. I placed that ad some 8 years ago, offering to let anyone fly my airplane and helicopter for free. Funny thing, in all that time, I never received even one phone call. Interesting.

I think if you went to the UK, pro instructors over there might be certified.

Take care,
Clarence C. Ragland
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors

slam

I would like to know who would teach me to fly real gliders for free. I always wanted to learn how to fly and if I could do it for free, I might give it a go.

fliers1 a little off topic, but OK.

I did not say the aerotow or glider rental was free but I myself was a soaring instructor for gratis until a couple of years ago.

Scorpionjack

Personally! RC is a hobby or should I say an addiction. Pay for Instruction NO!

Why? Well being in this hobby from 1958 active in AMA from a Junior in CL Stunt to Combat, Rat Race etc. I finally arrived at the greatest Money pit in the Hobby RC Aircraft. As it stands now I've probably taught atleast 50+ people in RC basics to Intermidate Aerobatic's cost to them (Zero). probably another 50 just in basics(cost zero)

One of my Students was a Young Man from Brandon Manitoba, he came to my house every week for almost a year. Teaching him how to build and fly correctly (Cost None). He is the Number two (2) F3A Champion of Canada and #30 in the World. Remembering how it was when I had him on the sticks and saw his face with his first loop was more gratifying then any amount of money. Watching him fly his first aircraft that he built was just as satisfying. Hearing about him progress past the instructor was a thrill in itself.

I just arrived back to the states after being in Japan for the last 4 years flying every weekend there also. Met some of the greatest and most talented RC pilots from every walk of life. Over 100 Pilots were met in those 4 years and not a one charged anyone for instruction in this great Hobby.

If an individual is infact using a public field:
Or a field owned by the local club:
Or is an AMA/MAAC member:
Then that instructor charging should not be using that field at all.
You want to charge for flying RC do it on your own property, but don't forget to notify your insurance company to increase your liability insurance.


Have Fun
AMA6518

fliers1

One thing continues to get lost in this discussion: Why would anyone even consider paying for something that they could get for free? If there wasn't a market for paid instruction, there would be no discussion.

Those who teach for free tell of the few who they taught for free, but what they should do is make much easier for beginners to find all of these free instructors, then no one would feel the need to pay anyone for help. What most are not aware of is huge number of beginners who cannot find much, if any instruction.
Post you email address and telephone number online and provide the same excellent customer service that a paid instructor has to provide to stay in business. Of course, if you do get the word out that you are ready to teach the world for free, be prepared to be busy for awhile.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors

JBH

My Feedback: (1)

Wow... I skimmed through the thread and don't understand all the interest. As long as I'm here, though... let me ask you this...

This thread has predominately been about a new guy wanting to learn the basics. How do you feel about a world class RC pilot charging to teach the average pilot how to really learn to fly?

Me, personally, I would love to have Quique Somenzini, Jason Shulman, or Chip Hyde come show me the finer points. They are available, did you know? They charge a little more than my current situation will allow for... but as soon as I'm roll'n in it again?... I'll be trying to get all three of them out for a weekend. :-)

jmf2001

Once again you guys are missing the point. Sure most of the r/c clubs teach members how to fly. Most of the club instructors are good fliers and excelent instructors. No one is questiong that. The point I am tring to get is when someone is getting paid for something the person getting paid has an obligation to the student ( the one who is paying ) and usually takes more time on a one on one basis.
I have taught (and still do) many modelers how to build and fly model airplanes. But if the modeler wants me to be at his becon call then I have to be paid for my time. Once again remember in my case I give the student a properly built plane, a transmitter plus the buddy box, all my flight line equipment and my time. You don't think that I should be paid for that?
Once again no one is saying that club flight instructors are not getting the job done. They have done and continue to do an excellent job. But paid instrutors are also working. And I am sure that in the long run it is cheaper for the average modeler to get into the hobby via paid instructors. Im not talking $ 600.00 a week.
As for what field they use, in most cases ( like myself) the instructors make sure the field is well mantained.
Why the AMA dosen't cover paid insrtuctors, good question. Why don't you ask them?
There are a lot of other things we can talk about. So why don't we leave the instructor issue and go on to other things.

stevta

My Feedback: (1)

I think it was a good point that if you want to charge for training that's not a problem for most of us. There are conditions to our agreement in one fashion or another.
I agree with the gentlemen that mentioned a paid training taking advantage of the club and other club members who may want to be trainers or are already.
If you use the club to acquire students or use the club's facilities there should be an additional charge to that member. As you said, this is America and several had said you ought to be paid for your value.
My opinion is that by the time you pay for advertising and your own field you'd be farther in the hole then just giving the service away.
If you want others to treat your fairly you should be prepared to treat them likewise.

fliers1

See: http://www.frontiernet.net/~rcfs/Packet.htm

Dave Scott apparently found a way to pay his bills. He is making $1800 per week ($600 per person - per week) with his flight school. BTW, this doesn't include room and board for one week. Many would be surprised as to just how many beginners out there are ready to spend that much money to finally learn how to fly. Thing is, only those who advertise their training services to the public would know this.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors

jmf2001

During the seco nd world war I lived In Kings Park, Long Island. At that time we were flying rubber and gas free flight. Then the Glow plug was discovered and we are were we are today.
Any way while I lived On Long Island during those years every hunting season we would oil up our trusty shot gun and go out hunting all kinds of small game once the season opened. There was game all over and plenty of land to hunt on.However today things have changed. There is no more free land to hunt on and not much game on the land that is available. Does that mean that no one is hunting? Not by a long shot..
Hunting today is a big business. Many sportsman pay big bucks to hunt on preserves both big and small game. Many of the large farms allow ( for pay ) hunting on their property. In most cases the hunting areas are well maintained and there is plenty of game available for the hunter. People havent stopped hunting because they have to pay. Learning how to fly R/C is the same. First of all the models that we fly today are more expensive and more complicated that they were years ago. There are less areas were one can fly or learn to fly alone.
'No one is going to get rich or even make a fair living by teaching R/C. But it does serve its purpose. Who knows, perhaps there should be more places ( like hunting ranches ) were you can go for a week and get top notch building and flying training. I have seen to many new modelers come to the field with their tonghs hanging out with a poorly built plane only to loose them in the future'because they never got the help they really need.
Modelers are investing a lot of money to get into modeling today. And if payed training is going to make them better fliers and keep them in the hobby then I don't see a problem.

fliers1

I would say that $1800.00 for teaching 3 people per week is a pretty good living.

Ernie Huber is making $3000.00 per week teaching 3 people per week, or is it $4000.00 per week teaching 4? Not too shabby.

There is a flight school in California that is GETTING $90.00 per hour and has no trouble bringing in new customers. Most of his customers come from clubs that offer free instruction. Can't figure out why they would pay so much money when they know that can get free instruction from their clubs. Are these beginners that slow or that desperate?

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors

Ray Smith

Hello to rcuniverse. My name is Ray Smith and I am a professional R/C flight instructor. Perhaps I can give the readers of this forum an idea of “the other side” of this discussion; the one from the professional’s perspective. I normally make it a policy to not comment on forums like this one because I usually don’t have the time and, the few times in the past that I have made comments have resulted in some fairly rude comments directed at me. I didn’t mind the rude comments so much, but the last time I contributed in a forum, the thread I started was terminated (after 88 posts) because the moderator said he thought the thread was becoming a “commercial” for my company. Apparently, he thought I was going to make some money with free advertising on “his” discussion group.

I am making an exception to my policy of not commenting on online forums because a friend and fellow professional R/C flight instructor, Clarence Ragland, asked me to contribute to this thread. I hope the readers of this group, and especially the moderator of this group will see my comments as factual topical information for this thread and not just a “commercial” for my company.

Several people have pointed out in this thread that “free” (amateur) training is available at almost every club across the nation and therefore, the “paid” (professional) trainer has nothing additional to offer the student of R/C flying. According to them, all flight training is the same. It’s just that sometimes it’s free (club amateur instructors), and sometimes, you have to pay for it (professionals).

I would like to point out the main differences between my services, and the services typically found for free at the local club. There are really, just four things I do as a professional (besides getting paid). Although any amateur flight instructor could also do these four things, it seems that very few actually do. The four things I do are as follows:

1. I show up. As a professional, it is necessary to show up at an appointed time, dictated by my client, not by me. I have a training calendar and appointment book, and I would consider it highly unprofessional of me (and I’m sure my student would also), if I didn’t show up for my appointments.
2. I dedicate my time at the flying field to teaching my student/client how to fly R/C model airplanes. (I do not make my students wait for me while I fly my own plane and/or talk to my buddies.)
3. I guarantee everything. Whether the student provides their own equipment, or they use mine, any damage is my responsibility, not theirs. (The only exception is damage to student’s equipment due to obvious radio failure.)
4. I use a technique of flight training, which has my students soloing in the minimum possible time. Using a “kinesthetic” technique (no buddy-boxes), I put my students into more than 50 hands-on take-offs and landings/touch-n-goes per hour of training, starting with the very first training flight. (Typical students will make over 100 landings per day of training.)

Issues 1 and 2 above are initially cited by most of my students as their most important issues. I hear stories almost every day about people trying to learn but finding no instructor shows up and if one does, the "instructor" would rather fly his own airplane or socialize, than train a newcomer.

To me, however (and very quickly to my students), issues 3 and 4 are just as important. In my experience, the average person will require more than 500 (damage free), practice landings with a model airplane before they are able to demonstrate solo competency and earn their solo certificate. My students achieve this number, typically in four to six days of training at my school. After they have learned to land with confidence and precision, they can return to their home flying fields and practice all other aspects of flying on their own.

To date, I have issued 160 solo certificates to individuals who live all over the planet, and my training calendar is usually booked ahead at least several weeks. I work with only 2 students per day, so each student can get about 2 hrs of stick time per day. I have a business license, a business contract for use of flying facilities, and I carry a business insurance policy, which protects my business and student/clients just the same as any other business.

So, although I can’t speak for all professional R/C Flight Instructors, this is what I offer and I hope this gives a little perspective to those readers of this forum wanting to know just what a professional flight instructor does (or should do) to earn his/her money.

Ray Smith
Professional R/C Flight Instructor and Owner of Hobbies Aloft R/C Flight School

greg-RCU

If there isn't room in this hobby for that kind of professionalism then it will be in trouble. The national associations need to endorse it.

jmf2001

Hi Ray I belive with most of what you are saying.HOWEVER I would sure love to see anyone ( let alone a student ) doing 50 takoffs and landings in an hour. And 500 flights before they solo.
You must have some real bad students if it takes them 500 flights to solo.
JM

Miniair

My Feedback: (1)

I have a question, What did you do to become this, and I quote, "Professional R/C Flight Instructor" as there aren't any accredited schools that offer such a course, degree or diploma.

AMA in the US or MAAC in Canada don't recognize the "professional instructor" but do recognize instructors qualified through a club that is sanctioned by them and have met certain criterial.

TopShelf

My Feedback: (4)

I think we are getting into the "...chicken or egg..." argument when we ask these professionals how they became professionals. These guys are obviously pioneers and as such there will not be anyone to endorse them as qualified "professionals." The only certification they have is happy customers.

If the concept catches on, there will undoubtedly develop some sort of certification. In the mean time, these pioneers are the same as any flight instructor at a club as far as the AMA and others are concerned. However, as pointed out above, they offer better service than most club based free instructors.

Personally, I had a very good club experience for free and if I started off knowing I had to pay additional money to learn, I may not have started in the hobby at all. However, I was frustrated at times because my schedule and instructors schedule did not always mesh.

Kent

fliers1

Although it is a very noble thing when club offer free instruction, but in this case, the term "free" is a bit of a misnormer. What I mean is, that in order for the beginner to learn to fly, he must buy his equipment, although I realize that some clubs have club trainers; but for the most part, club and AMA dues eventually must be paid. Free?

As far as the real meaning of free goes, I do offer to let anyone fly either or both of my airplanes and helicopter for free. As in it doesn't cost the beginner a dime to fly either. He doesn't have to ever join AMA or pay club dues to learn how to fly. Many of my students have their own property to fly on and have no desire whatsoever to join any club or organization to fly. Unfortunately, because of this, clubs and the modeling organizations lose dues income and new potential friends and members. Maybe that is why so many seem to have such a personal problem with the idea of paid instructors.
If the newbie just wants to take a one hour lesson, that he can do with a paid instructor.

I just wish there was some way where the skeptical club instructor could place an ad so he would then see just how many beginners out there desperate enough to pay anyone, almost any amount to learn how to fly.
Thing is, if the club instructor started to get tons of calls from these beginners, what does he tell them? Will he offer to teach all of them for free? What if they are coming from hundreds of miles away? Or does he just tell them to be patient?

Maybe someday, the commercial (pro) instructor, clubs and modeling organizations could work together for the good of the hobby and the beginner, as this would present a win-win situation for everyone. Never mind, this just makes too much sense.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors

gpmikemorse-RCU

I don't know if Ray is going to respond, but I know from his previous discussions that the 50 take offs and landings are in an hour of actual flying time, which obviously takes more than a clock hour to accomplish. Ray's planes have to come down and be re-fueled just like ours and his students need rest. But, from what I understand, his students basically take off, get their bearings, and set up for landing, over and over. With that in mind, one landing per minute is not unreasonable.

Also, Ray didn't say "500 flights" to solo, he said 500 landings. If you do the math, Ray is saying the average person takes 10 hours of actual flight time to solo. That matches pretty closely with my rule of thumb, which is 4 gallons of fuel to solo (by "solo" I mean "competence", not "first successful takeoff and landing without instructor intervening".)

--Mike

jmf2001

Hi Mike. Ray said 50 landings an hour. He didn't say he was timing the individual flights. Me as a biginner and reading what he said I would think that he is speaking about 50 landings per hour. So the way I see it is that he is not putting out a true statement. And lets face it. Takeoffs and landings are the most important manauvers any pilot must do. But somehow I dont think that teaching someone to take off and quickely land is teaching them how to fly. Why not just let them do touch and goes?
All I know is that I was teaching for one hundred bucks. The student had three months of my time. One of my trainers (which I still have ) has 1,250'loged flights on it. I stoped teaching for one hundred bucks not because I got rich but because I was getting to many students. Till today modelers call me because they are recomended to me by the hobby shops. The hobby shops never got a dime but they felt that I was qualafied enough from my track record to recommend me.
No one can qualafiy a flight instructor. But I can guarantee you that if you are no good that no one is going to stick their necks out and recommend you.
By the way I don't belive in teaching someone how to fly by keeping my hands and the student's hands on the sticks. It's like the professor holding the knife when the student operates.
Hope the weather is good were you guys fly. So have a nice weekend and don't forget to flair out.

JBH

My Feedback: (1)

Hi JM!

[COLOR=teal]>>I belive with most of what you are saying.