caseyh46

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This may be totally off topic for the "beginners" forum but it seems to me that your best bet to get an opinion on something or get a question answered you come here... So..

I think I'm a fairly aviation savvy guy... i've worked on airplanes for 8 years in the Navy and have had tons of training in aviation physiology and physics. I've managed luckily to pick up the hobby pretty well in a short period of time but maidening my Hellcat last weekend caused me to ponder a few things and I was wondering if any of you think the same way or notice the same thing...

I re-painted my hellcat with a nice scale paint scheme and perfect latex color matched paints... this thing is the best work I've done so far (even if it was an ARF) it took alot to re-paint. Anyway... it flew great but that's not the real story here...

I noticed that flying my Hellcat around the field I never really get to notice any of the "paint scheme" or for that matter on any of my other planes when i think about it I never can remember focusing on a specific "decal" or sticker or marking on the bird... as hard as I tried it was almost impossible for me to try and focus on the "star and bar" for example without losing orientation of the airplane after a second or two... (I'm hoping this makes some sense)

So I got to thinking... if I couldn't actually "focus" on one specefic point on the airplane then when I'm flying the plane what am I looking at? If you can understand the question... at what point on the airframe am I looking at for my mind to gather enough data to determine the orientation of the airframe and what inputs my fingers need to make to make that turn or keep it level during that low fly-by for example. So... when I or "we" fly are we just looking at what our minds or eyes think is the middle or "center mass" of the airframe and using our pariphial vision to gather the other data our minds need such as attitude/pitch/speed and yaw to make our corrections?

I'm sorry if this seems so far out in "left field" I'm about to make a name for myself on this board LOL but it just got me to thinking... To really think about the complexities of flying an airplane while your IN the cockpit is amazing... but to then take yourself out of the cockpit and fly the airplane in the "3rd" person is even more amazing... this takes away all of the "seat of the pants" feelings from the aircraft. So...what do I or "we" focus on when we're flying? Or am I the only goofus who can't seem to see his own graphics in detail on his airplanes when they're in the air... (unless i REALLY REALLY try).

And if i'm not the only one then what are we looking at? Just the shillouette against the sky? only being able to tell top from bottom because of a difference in color scheme?

Anyway... just a little food for thought... I was hoping to try and spark a little "different" type of conversation here in the beginners forum... there are so many good idea's and extremely smart individuals floating around here i was hoping to gete some input/opinions on a specific aspects of the physics of flying in the "3rd" person...

And maybe someone can tell me why I (atleast) don't seem to ever focus on any of the graphics on my airplanes... just the "whole" plane in some way...

Sorry the post was so long... if you made it this far you MUST be bored

Casey

RCKen

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Casey,
Actually that is a pretty good question for beginners. I know I usually answer it for every student I teach. What is "looked" at is different for every pilot. I look at the color of the wing (I use contrasting color for top and bottom) and the wheels. That's how I keep track of my bird in the air. You need to find what works for you and stick with it.

As for you paint scheme. Scale is great on the ground, but hard to see in the air.

Hope this helps

shakes268

I think there are a number of different things I focus on depending on what I'm doing.
A lot of the time I spend focusing on the wings being straight and level before entering a manuever. I have 2 blue stripes on the bottom of the plane that I can see from far away or very high up that keeps me in check with being inverted. They stripes also wrap around just a little to the leading edge so that helps me on landing.

I also focus on the pitch of the plane quite a bit so I do look at the nose but for some reason I hardly ever watch the tail section. I'm getting more and more used to the overall "shape" of the plane and how it should look in specific manuevers.

caseyh46

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hmmmm that's weird that you look at the wheels... Heck I don't need retracts because I don't seem to ever notice my wheels (until landing) LOL... Shakes I think I"m with you in that I just look at the "shape" of the aircraft once I"m used to it and focusing on the wings being straight and level... I too hardly ever remember looking at the empennage of the aircraft... And I'm sorry RCken if it seemed like a question... it wasn't really meant to be a question per se' But you input is oustanding, what you say makes alot of sense... I just wanted to see some discussion on the topic... Shakes makes good points also... hmm.... what do I look at when I fly LOL....

DBCherry

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I really want to respond to this, but it'll have to wait until later or I'll be late for work.
Dennis-

Ed_Moorman

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Many years ago when the USAF began working of smart bombs, I got to work with a human factors PhD consultant the USAF had hired. I mentioned that I flew RC and he became interested so, while he was with us, I sort of had my own consultant. These may not be gospel and there may be later data, but they have worked for me. Here are a few things I remember from my conversations with him.

We talked about trim and, after checking an eye acuity chart and doing some trig, we came up with trim size. At a range of 2000 feet, a reasonable distance for an RC plane to be away from you, the eye can only make out something that is 3-4 inches wide. Pin stripes and small stuff may look good in the pits, but don't help in the air.

You need contracting colors. The best is light colors surrounded by a darker color. White is, of course, bad against clouds.

The eye is most sensitive to green. We have a lot of green on the land part of earth. Notice just as the sun goes down, everything looks greener. Fluorescent green was his choice for the best color to see. Planes I have covered in that color have been very easy to see, evpecially in the evening if I flew late.

An all dark color is easy to spot, but hard to perceive the attitude. it sort of looks like a big blob. Try an all black plane and you'll see. An all Navy blue fighter without any trim or markings is also hard to see.

A good percentage of the population has a minor vision problem where they tend to lose orientation on an object at a certain distance. His example was to watch a full scale plane taking off. After a certain distance out, with the plane in a quartering rear view, it becomes hard to tell whether the plane is going or coming. the same thing happens with an RC plane at a distance. This is where you lose orientation and can't tell which way is back to the field. If you think you have this problem, you need to be very sensitive to color and color schemes and try to fly closer.

I'll probably think of some more later.

Scar

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Yah, I'm kind of glad you're paying attention to more than details on the plane. You're supposed to! You have to watch the roll, pitch and yaw attitudes, the relationship of the plane to the end of the runway, and be aware of the others flying, etc. That's plenty, in my book.

Admire the details on the ground. Enjoy the flying when it's in the air. Sounds like a good priority list, to me!

Best wishes,
Dave Olson

Villa

This certainly is an interesting question. I have been flying R/C for 30 years and do not really know what I look for. I just know I look for something and when I do not see it I take some type of action. About 4 months ago I flew the SPAD flying lawn mower I had built. I had the strangest feeling of doom on the first few landings. On my first landing I set up to come in hot and touch down in front of me. Everything looked good and I start flaring at about 5 feet elevation. I immediately had the sickening feeling that I was going to crash into the ground. I seemed to be dropping like a rock, but level and in control. I decided to just hold it. It was a greased landing. On the second landing I had the same crashing feeling, but again a greased landing. On all of the landings after that I never again experienced the crashing feeling. Over the next few days I thought about that crashing feeling and concluded this: During a landing of a normal model I visually pick up certain signals from the model and react accordingly. The flying lawnmower gives off completely different signals! It has no tail so the pitch "signal" is different. It seems to have no wings since the span is 24 inches and the chord is around 36 inches. The orientation signal is very different. The mower handlebar is very prominent, very visible, but my brain has no memory against which the visual signal can be compared. After the first two landings all is OK.

Geistware

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WOW, thank you for posting this question.
I for one have had people tell me I am crazy beause I fly the gear and the fuselage. I don't really see the rest of the plane when I am flying. If I lost site of the gear (and I have) then I can only tell orientation by what happens when I wiggle my wings. That is why I like to fly close in but usually it is frowned upon.

caseyh46

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wow great responses.... I'm kind of anxious to get back out flying to do some "tests" on myself to try and figure out what it is that I look at or focus on when I fly... and yes.. an all Navy blue warbird is hard to see LOL...

Casey

Here's the hellcat btw..

papermache

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casey,

This is a great thread which I'm sure will have a lot of people scratching their heads and asking themselves questions. I know it did me!

From my own point of view, I think it depends most on WHERE I'm flying and the airplane in relation to the different backgrounds. I fly in 3 different places with open fields, woods or beach and water as the backgrounds. I find myself focusing mostly on wingtips and the vertical stab for orientation. Contrasting bright and dark colors work well, as do stripes on one side and roundels on the other for a which-end-is-up check. Moorman is right - bright green is one of the best colors to see.

One thing I HAVE found out though (as usual, the hard way) When it comes to model airplanes, the trouble with camoflage schemes is that they often work.

Thanks for the thread.

papermache

Pilot Chad

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Casey, I honestly just keep and eye on the wing. I also make sure it is on top, and not on bottom. Thats all i really do. Basically, just whatever works for you.

bhole74

I generally look at the whole plane and what it is doing like Scar pointed out. However, in certain instances, I do tend to look at specific point of the aircraft, such as hovering, I always concentrate on the tail. I cover most of my planes with a distict difference from top and bottom, especially the wing because if I get dioriented, that is my "go to" reference.

britbrat

I'm pretty sure that I focus on colour patterns when close in, & light-dark tone contrasts at a distance. I have difficulty in handling camoflage patterns at any distance & in those cases I try to focus on the wing planform if possible. For me, white is the worst colour to see in the sky.

DamonTX

Casey...Good topic and very intersting follow ups! After I build a plane I like, I tend to build another one using modifications I've picked up from other people. Over the years, I've sorta devised this scheme shown below on an outline of my twin Somethin' Extra and used on about 6 others I've built. After reading your post, I started thinking about what you said about what we focus on. Since I've stuck with this scheme on so many planes, I'd have to say my focus is on the center mass with wingtips in the periphery. When the plane is upside down, the fuse is white and black when it's upright.

caseyh46

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hmm.... everyone makes great points and observations of their own... thanks for sharing...

I for one would like to know what a champion such as a Chip Hyde or Nick Ziroli or Ziroli Jr. focus on when flying... Especially the 3D guys... it's interesting that one of us focuses on the tail during a hover where as when I try (and not much of a try it is) I never once thought of focusing on the tail.. perhaps that's why I fail.. I'm concentrating on the entire airframe and not one point of refrence. I'd say the truly great ones end up flying way ahead of the airplane and have such a base of knoweledge and experience that they know what the aircraft will do with even the most minimal input from the sticks...

Another observation I thought about is when we're looking (flying) our airplanes have you ever tried to think about what your fingertips are doing on the sticks? (other than trimming ofcourse)... I tried that also and it seemed to cause me to loose focus... it's amazing that the sticks just seem to move on their own as your mind processes the attitude of the airframe and decides on the necessary input to correct or change the attitude... guess it's that right brain left brain thing where when you think about it you end up screwing yourself up... It's almost as if it becomes an "involuntary" function as I (we) grow in a natural progression in the hobby...

Maybe it's just me but this sort of stuff is facinating...

Casey

DBCherry

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Great topic Casey!

I thought a lot about this and believe that I focus on different things depending on where I'm flying in relation to myself. In other words, if I'm in close I focus on the attitude of the wings and the fuse. By close I mean within 500 feet or so. This is the range in which I usually perform aerobatics, so I'm looking for pitch and roll attitude.

Whereas, if I'm further out I tend to look at the entire "blob" and it's relationship to the surrounding terrain. I've become pretty proficient at "knowing" what attitude the plane is in and recognizing where it will be with any given input. So actually seeing the plane oreintation has become less important.

In many respects this is true for close in flying as well. I've become good enough to stay ahead of the plane so that I know when to release the sticks, in a roll or a spin for example, to stop it on the heading I want.

Does that make sense?
Dennis-

bubbagates

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Casey,

I hate you... I try my best not to think once I leave work for the day, but now you are making me do just that...

Just kidding, I really am just kidding.

This is a great question and it reminds me of myself going up to a long time full scale pilot and asking him just why does he grease almost every landing. Drove him nuts...He was so used to it and it had become second nature so long ago that trying to think about was hard.

I have now spent an hour trying to come up with an answer if not just for you, for me as this is something I have thought about and at times have tried to make an effort to find information on.

I find myself do several things depending on what I am doing at the time.

If I am flying level I am watching the nose and gear.
If I am flying inverted, I am still watching the nose and gear but wondering if I really wanted to be that way.

If I am flying really low and inverted I am now watching the nose sliding across the ground, the rudder parting company and the gear flying past the plane [X(]

If I am attempting to hover I am concentrating on the tail.
If I am landing I am watching the gear and wings
If I am climbing vertically I am watching the whole plane but more the nose.
If I am diving straight down I am watching the nose and how fast it is gaining speed in realtion to the ground.
If I am flying Knife Edge I am watching the wings, canopy, and the general look of the plane.
If I am doing rolls, I am watching the whole plane and looking to see if the nose is dropping.

As far as color, this may sound weird, but I find yellow to be much eaiser for me. On all of my planes I have some gold trim on the leading edges of all of the surfaces with about 2 inches of it on the top and bottom. I find that even on a cloudy day, if I do lose orientation, if I rock the wings, the gold will "sparkle" and I instantly regain orientation. This really help during landing since both ends of the runway have trees and there are times that all of my planes tend to blend into the trees.

I also have found that geometric shapes of a contrasting color on the bottom of the tail and wings helps allot. I was told by my long time eye doctor that the human eye tends to see those kind of shapes much easier and quicker. Checkerboard, stripes and all work to an extent for me.

An example of the gold on a yellow plane. And an example of geometric shapes that are on the bottom of my WH Ultimate (not my pic)

caseyh46

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It makes alot of sense Dennis.... so does Bubbagates.... some very interesting points.. I may try the geometric shape thing and begin to play more with different colors... I think I'm like bubbagates though in that I seem to see yellow the best... although I've never had a green plane LOL...

Casey

jrhelm

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Good thoughts!

From my understanding, most of what we "see" through our eyes is interpreted as patterns in the brain. When looking at an airplane, it is the relative difference in the pattern or outline of the plane that gives us the relative attitude of the plane in flight. When those patterns are indistinguishable from up or down, then is when the colors or patterns of the plane become most important. I am a beginner, but I imagine after flying many flights, the ability to recognize the pattern representing the attitude of the plane becomes easily recognizable. As an example, someone being instructed at our field was having trouble seeing whether the plane was coming towards him or flying away. The instructor, have flown many times, easily recognizes the pattern or has learned the color cues to alert him to which direction the plane was flying.
You know those Escher drawings, the ones that create weird 3D perceptions in our brain. The pattern clues that we normally use to recognize things are missing. This is the same with flight of an RC plane. When we can't find the normal clues, this is when we need the colors or patterns on the wings to help us understand the attitude of the plane.

I think about this a lot. How would a two-dimensional world view a three-dimensional world?

J

bubbagates

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Dennis does make a lot of sense. I agree with the need to know and remember what the last input was you just gave the plane. It comes in real handy if you happen to fly through the sun and a small host of others.

After giving some more though, I do find myself using a combination of knowing what I just told the plane to do and watching certain parts of the plane.

There have been a lot of great replies to this question. I really look forward to reading some more.

Rv7garage

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Its definitely not just you! I absolutely agree with your assessment of "involuntarily" moving the sticks. I'm still a newb, and have had a couple of times when I've sort of stepped outside myself and been very aware of the automatic nature of my aircraft control. I think its different from operating a car or a fullsize airplane because you are not actually physically in it, but if you are like me you get into the "Zone" where you become one with the plane, but in a weird third-party perspective. Does that make sense? BTW, I have no idea what part of the plane I look at- I think it changes depending on what I'm doing.

Commander_Drake

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Tens of thousands of years have finely tuned our ability to track fast moving game in the air or on the ground, and to dodge thrown rocks and spears. I suspect that our advantage comes not in seeing the detailed markings on the incoming spear but in somehow being able to quickly judge the overall orientation and motion of the object. Of course, back in those days we werent controlling our spears by radio.

bubbagates

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The only time I've seen a green plane is when my yellow one was sitting next to a prettier plane and it turned green (with envy)

Sorry, I had too, I just could not resist

rcjon

If this is the sort of thing that interests you, you might enjoy this website - http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/index.html .

It has a lot of interesting visual stuff and a lot about why we see what we see. One of the examples relates to your original question in an indirect manner. The example shows white dots moving against a dark background. At first there seems to be no pattern to the movement, but if you watch it a while, you will visualize a human walking. The pattern of the dots' movements is equal to the lights placed at strategic locations on a walking human being. The point I got from it was the pattern of a walking human being (and four legged animal also) was so familiar to us (maybe even hard-wired) into our brains that we can recognize the image with a minimal amount of visual information.

Now to relate that to your post and my personal experience - I don't think I watch the gear, the fuse, the wings and I certainly don't see details on the model when I'm flying. I think the wing line's relation to the horizon on approach is a visual key, just like the fuse line's relation to the horizon on a fly-by is. I just look at the plane as a whole (I think.). When I started flying, only a little over a year ago, trying to discern top from bottom of the aircraft was a big issue. I tried various colors of trim applied to the bottom and all that. But now I don't do such things and I don't have problems with disorientation at all. I really think that I determine the top and bottom of the plane by the way it's reacting to the stick input and my knowledge of "where it should be". However, the visual references might be subconscious and changing the trim scheme of my most familiar planes might really screw me up.

Night flying is popular among the electric flyers. I'd like to hear their input on the topic.

On my next trip to the flying field, I'll to remember this post and pay attention to what I watch. I'd like to try concentrating on a specific part of the plane. (PETA members please excuse yourselves now) A tip that usually helps on the dove shooting field is to tell the shooter to try and hit the bird's eye. A mourning dove at 30-40 yards is already a pretty small target, but for some reason it seems to help to concentrate on the smaller target. I wonder if concentrating on a specific part of the R/C airplane would be helpful.

Interesting topic.