Another problem with this is that you are more than likely going to be crossing the sun as you fly your circle. Crossing the sun is a good way to lose your plane. As you look into the suns your eyes have to adjust and during that time it's quite easy to loose sight of your plane. In the second or two it takes to get your vision back your plane can very well become a nice pile of kindling. You really should avoid doing this as this is the kind of flying that leads to accidents at the field.

Ken

Heh...thanks. I'm honored.

And glad to hear that you're going to pick up the book. I dunno why I'm always "pimping it" (I think that's the term the kids use nowadays, right?)...it's not like I have any association with it other than being a devoted "fan" of the work. I just like sharing the opportunity to have such an "ah-HA!" moment as I had, I guess. Besides...at $17, what's the WORST thing that can happen? You blow $17 on something you thought would help your flying and didn't (an amount FAR less than we've all spent on such things, I'm sure) AND you might even get to see me eat a copy. *heh*.

==============

Yeti, let me add to what CGR and Ken have said. Certainly there are fields that are setup to allow "orbits" as i call them...flying in a circle around yourself. Just be aware that many (most?) do NOT allow such things, as they have a very distinct "flight line", and usually rules in place that prohibit crossing it, for safety reasons. If you're not comfortable with it, the "change in direction" (which is to say, in an "orbit" the plane's always going to, say, you're left, where in a 'racetrack" it's left AND right) can be disorienting.

One other thing on rudder usage I haven't seen mentioned here, that popped into my head a bit ago...

The "correct" use of rudder will vary TREMENDOUSLY with different aircraft. I mean, if we want to REALLY go to extremes, a helicopter might very well not turn at ALL without it, where some jets might SUFFER from even having a rudder at all.

More applicable, however, is a comparison between, say, a bi-plane, a trainer, and an aerobat.

Bank and yank (aileron and elevator only) will, on say an Edge or Extra, produce a turn that, unless we're shooting for competition level precision flight, be virtually indistinguishable from one where rudder is used. That is to say, if your aim is just to enjoy flying around and have a good time, you could do an entire flight sans rudder, and never really even notice or care.

Try the same thing with a trainer or something with high dihedral, and you'll see that the application of rudder makes turns seem "smoother", or "more gentle" if you will. Sure, it'll turn fine without it, but turns will be noticeably more "natural" looking with good rudder control.

Now fly a bipe...especially a big slow "barnstormer" type, like maybe an Aeromaster or Hog Bipe. Without rudder, at BEST they look downright WRONG in turns, as the tail will be hanging FAR below the airplane...and at worst, they may just flat refuse to turn without rudder.

So, keep in mind...the answer to "When does one use rudder?" can be greatly dependent upon the answer to "What is one flying?"

=============

Just a quick "ha ha" moment this thread reminded me of...anyone who's taken flying lessons will probably appreciate this. Not so long ago, I had the opportunity to "switch roles" with my CFI, and put him on a buddy box flying my Sig Hog Bipe (one of the aforementioned dang-well-needs-some-rudder bipes). No, the Hog Bipe doesn't make the greatest "trainer", but he just wanted a shot at experiencing RC flight, and it made for a fun afternoon to switch positions.

Anywho, after 2-3 REALLY sloppy turns which the plane muddled through, complaining the whole time, I took the plane back, and flew a more co-ordinated turn. I looked at him and said "Chris...I've been wanting to return this favor for months...MORE RUDDER IN THE TURNS, DANGIT!"

It's actually so simple a tutorial would be too many words. Of course, when did I ever worry about too many words.....

I just bring the airplane on a fast pass close enough to see good. Hit the rudder and watch what happens. Make runs both ways and do left rudder one pass, right rudder the next.

If the airplane pitches I work on that first. (BTW, I do a touch of this on the maiden simply to get some warning if it's bad.) Actually, if it pitches badly, THEN I work on it first. If it didn't pitch badly, what's to worry unless knifedge shows problems.

If the pitch couple was bad, I plug in a rudder-master/elevator-slave mix of whatever amount seems right. It's a safe deal if you're going to test again right away because you know you've screwed with it and how much.

Lots of airplanes with dihedral are going to roll couple. It's part of the design with some. If the plane had done both pitch and roll, the pitch probably contributed to the roll. So after curing a pitch that was worth curing, then dealing with the roll is usually going to be easier.

At my "increasing seniority" everyone at the field gets a laugh out of the way I do the roll couple bit. I wind up repeating to myself out loud something like, "right-rudder, clockwise.... right-rudder, clockwise.... right-rudder, clockwise" when I'm walking back from the flight line.

Do a test run, land, set something in the radio, taxi back out and repeat. Once you've got the mix in the radio, I've found I can get the amount 95% perfect in just a couple of two lap flights. And the flight that shows I've hit "good enough for now" is the one I then look harder at the roll couple. Lot's of times it's gone or not enough to worry about.

[sm=lol.gif]

I can so TOTALLY relate.

*walks back to pits..."Left knife edge, pitch to belly...left knife edge, pitch to belly...left knife edge, pitch to belly"*

I'll get scared when i forget whether "to the belly" is up or down. *heh*

* I just removed my question... I have to think about this a bit.. rudder in an aileron turn and how and why. Jeech.. you would think that after all these years (well, not that many compared to many of you, but you know what I mean) you would think that I know this stuff and it comes easy.. but I guess spoiled by performance aircraft rather than trainers.. you don't get to see some of this stuff unless you are really watching.. and a turn just happens quickly.


CGr.

Hey CGR

Usually you'll be using the rudder to hold the tail UP in a turn. Here's why:

When we use ailerons, we increase lift on the wing that will be on the outside of the turn, and decrease (spoil) lift on the inside wing. Making lift makes drag, so the upgoing wing, the outside wing, is draggier than the downgoing, inside wing. This yaws the aircraft to the outside, upgoing, draggy wing. This is adverse yaw. The rudder yaws the aircraft back to the intended line of the turn.

Many people correct adverse yaw by adding aileron differential. Basically, the ailerons will move much further up than down. That helps prevent the adverse yaw by limiting the extra lift that the outbound wing generates, and instead spoiling lift on the inside. Many modern airliners do not have ailerons, just spoilers. Only the spoiler on the inside wing lifts, the other wing stays clean. The spoiler on the inside wing all at once adds drag, yawing the plane in the correct direction for the turn, and spoils lift, rolling the plane in the intended direction!

Cool, eh?

J

I know that some of you are just interested in this stuff and read about it, but do others of you have formal education in these areas? Just wondering!

There are some here who are pilots, aviation techs and such, but most of us just hang out at the field and on the boards, doing our best to be information sponges....

It's a wonderful hobby, and you'll never run out of things to learn.

J

I have no 'formal" education, but a smattering of "informal".

Grew up with a father who was an aeronautical engineer for McDonnell (later McDonnell Douglas). When ya live with a guy who helped design the F-4 and F-15 (among other systems), ya kinda can't help but pick up a tidbit here or there. *heh* Am also now a scale student pilot, so that's added a bit of understanding as well.

Very good question Getti !!
Well, when the airplane is horisontal the rudder works like a left/right function.....but when the angel (of the wings according to the horizon) is changed the ruddder gets more of on elevator function....capisch ?
So when flying "knife-edge" (or kniv-ägg as we say in Sweden), the rudder is more like a elevator (and the elevator is like a rudder !!)
Natti natti !
//MK

OOpps I forgott one thing...
If you fly an airplane with out no ailerons (or "skevroder" as we say in Sweden), you acctually can get the aileron "effect" with the rudder..... (that is a high winged plane )...
Yeh I know this is weird but I know (done that ,been there.......etc etc)

Actually, that would be "knivegg"

i use it to steer the aircraft when taxiing or takeoff, in aerobatic maneuvors and to line it up for landing.

my dads Flair cub tends to need rudder when starting a turn or when the airspeed drops to a point where the ailerons loose alot of their control authority

the Rudder is a great tool to have for aerobatics, if you want to orientate the aircraft a particular way in a short space of time, give it a flick with the rudder

A few more points on rudder use.

A well trimmed airplane generally needs right rudder to track through inside loops. It also needs left rudder to track through outside loops.

While you follow the ailerons with the rudder while in an upright turn, you use opposite rudder to coordinate an inverted turn.

Most acrobatic designs strive to have no coupling between the rudder and rolling. This is controlled by the wing placement and the amount of dihedral in the wing. More dihedral will cause rolling the the direction of the rudder, while not having enough dihedral will cause proverse roll coupling. In other words, right rudder causes the airplane to roll left.

The old rudder/elevator designs rolled left with left rudder. When upside down, left rudder usually also caused them to roll to the left (even though left rudder when upside down is hanging off to the right).

March and April when it's windy, other than that, I never need it except for landing and take offs.

As a beginner, I pretty much use the rudder as a handle to drag what's left of my plane back to the pits![:@]

Rufcut

Best answer yet!

Rufcut.. good one!!

gboulton : Just one more quick question and hopefully a quick reply.. don't want to bore others with my proper lack of comprehension here..

Ok.. I want to make a right aileron turn. What direction and how much rudder do I apply for a basic, long orbital turn (not a short quick turn, just a long relaxed turn)? Someone pointed out 'follow the aileron with rudder so right aileron turn means right rudder, right...err correct ( )?

Not necessary to say " 12 degrees left.. or right.. whatever" just something like a small amount.. or a large amount.. I will do it and see what amount is necessary next time out, which, hopefully, will be this coming weekend.. if the weather cooperates!!

And thanks again for all your help and that of others that posted replies.

CGr.

Or with my long-winded replies? Tell ya what...I'll post the short answer here, and PM ya the long answer so I don't bore everyone. *heh* Feel free to share the PM elsewhere if you wish, or if anyone else really wants it, ask, and I'll PM you as well.

The short answer, imo, to your question is "whatever coordinates the airplane". Contrary to popular belief, ime, this is NOT always a straight "right rudder in right turn" answer...

Imagine a line that represents the direction of flight. Imagine another line that represents the roll axis (line from spinner to tail through center of airplane). Get those two lines traveling in the same direction, the turn is coordinated. If you were sitting in a full scale plane in such a situation, you'd see an instrument that looked about like this:



Or, at least, so they say. We students aren't capable of such miraculous feats of pilotage, so we have to take the word of the more experienced guys that the ball really will visit the center of the tube during a turn.

Different planes will react differently, but IN GENERAL, the rudder and ailerons will be going the same direction. Right aileron + right rudder = coordinated right turn (presuming appropriate amounts of each, of course).

Just keep in mind that depending on about eleventy-nine different things, (P-factor, torque, fuselage shape, trim, etc etc etc) "left rudder" may, for example, actually be "a bit less right rudder than normal". But, if viewed in terms of "with respect to where the rudder was BEFORE the turn", the ailerons and rudder go the same way for a coordinated turn.

PM on the way in a bit.

www.masportaviator.com has some tutorial articles for beginners on rudder use.when/why etc.Exercises to practice on the trainer.ROUND LOOPS,stall turns,cuban 8's,flat turns to name a few.They also stress the rudder is as important as the rest if you intend on performing even the basic aerobatics and performing them correctly.I had to learn the crosswind/crosscontrol early due to the windy/changing conditions where I fly/live.The articles/exercises have helped me progress to where it kinda looks like I know what I am trying to do.A cuban 8 is cool when you nail one.

CGR,

Just tried to send the PM...got a DB error. I've got it copied to a document on my machine...I'll try sending again shortly.

Makes perfect sense.. [sm=bananahead.gif] just kidding there..

I get it. And, yes PM other stuff and I shall share as appropriate!!

I am getting this now. Next step is to practice it. Hey, I may just dig out my sim controller and get it running on my desktop at home and practice that in 'sim life' followed by 'real life' practice while I am awaiting favorable weather and wind.

Now coupling rudder with ailerons for coordinated turns, someone once told me, does not take much, but as you said, it probably will all depend on a lot of things, specifically the airplane in question. The Protege, for instance (high wing with a flat bottom and very little dyhedral) will require a different amount of 'mixing' (either manual or dialed in with the computer controls) than say my Great Planes Venus II, which is a low wing that is fully symetrical aerobatic/pattern type plane.

This all sounds like fun and gives me something to focus on next time I'm out there.. darned wind and crappy weather..

Thanks again.

CGr.

Ok, gboulton.. jeech.. I hate that.. I'm Dick... so it's easier to remember and seems a bit more polite than using avatars.. ha.. sorry..

Anyway, no problem with the PM error. You can also send to my personal Email which is [email protected] if you wish.


You know, N1061D, it was trial by fire for me way back in my training days. I had the Nexstar Select with the .46FXi engine. My first few days after solo were interesting because I headed out to the field no matter what the wind was doing. So, my first few flights were in a rather interesting crosswind situation. And that big, high dyhedral, flat bottom wing really caught the wind on take off and on landing, so that rudder got a hell of a workout during those times, but unfortunately, not much after take off or before landing. I learned how to crab and conrtol nose direction and roll rate (ailerons) when the wind caught it on take off and again on landing. The rest of the flight was mainly aileron and sloppy turns that usually lost a tad bit of altitude. Perhaps this is why I was always afraid to fly 'close to the ground'.

I guess I never paid attention to this rudder and coordinated turns stuff after that, even though I was (still am) a fledgling pattern guy.. I have two of them.. the Venus II and the Excelleron 90.. so I really need to get into the 21st century here and get current.

And, as my friend, instructor, and mentor always said.. want to learn? Burn fuel!!!

CGr
(Dick)

PM's sent, Dick.

(Gordon)

I know what you mean CG.....I never hooked up to the buddy box with my instructor....we fired up the SuperStar .40...he taxied out...took off...trimmed out and said here ya go.
Stood there with me....talked me around the pattern....talked me into aproach.....I put her down on the concrete.He said...you got it.......That was it......That was back in Nov.
I have burned alot of fuel since.