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Oops, I did it again...

Old 06-04-2008, 08:51 PM
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Default Oops, I did it again...

Two birds down in 3 days of flying; this one wasn't even mine.

Was having elevator problems right off the bat. Had to move the push rod one hole closer to the servo to stop the binding that was happening. Took her up and she started looping like crazy! Brought it in immediately (for a nice smooth, safe landing WITH the wind.) Apparently the throttle push rod was hitting the metal motor mount and causing noise. Got that fixed and took her up again. Seemed to be flying great. Did the circuit inverted a couple of times, did some Immelman turns, 1/2 Cuban 8's, hammerheads, etc. Well, it was overcast and gloomy, and coming out of some aerobatic maneuver (can't remember the name, but you fly in to the turn, do an outside loop and a roll and come back the other way) I got disoriented, and by the time I figured out the attitude of the plane I was out of rudder to correct it. THUD!!! Engine COMPLETELY buried in the soft farm dirt. Wing destroyed, fuse fixable if you had WAY too much time on your hands and lots of spare parts (club guys said you COULD fix it, but none of them said they WOULD fix it if it were their plane).

I feel lousy because it wasn't my plane. I feel a little discouraged after spending so much $$$ and getting bored in 3 weeks. I really hope this Dolphin is A LOT more fun than the Avistar.
The plane was over 10 years old, flew well but had obviously been through heck and back. My buddy (new friend as of 2 weeks ago, he's from my club) let me borrow it after I wrecked my trainer on Saturday (he was there, saw the whole thing). He told me today that he didn't want me giving it back to him in a plastic bag...do I replace it, or just buy him dinner or a bunch of beer?

Any advice on this one is much appreciated. BTW I miss the old Brittany. I really hope the Paparazzi leaves her alone soon...poor girl...
Old 06-04-2008, 09:12 PM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

I would replace the plane. When I fly other peoples plane I always ask myself, "can I afford to replace it". I also fly very very carefully! His generosity should not cost him an airplane.
Old 06-04-2008, 09:12 PM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

I would at least replace any damaged engine (or parts), servos, rx, etc. and return all of that to him so he can put it into something else. However, the right thing to do is probably to replace the whole thing. If you can't find the exact model anymore, then that would be a different story and a different problem to work out.
Old 06-04-2008, 09:46 PM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

I was at the field tonight and saw this one go in, it was not a pretty site and it really made me cringe.

gaRCfield, I would have a chat with the owner before I ran out and bought a replacement of that model.

I hope you get much more flight time on the your new plane.

Rob
Old 06-04-2008, 09:49 PM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

I would replace the plane ,. In your other post , you said he really like it and wanted it back .
He does share some responsibility because he gave it to you. But you should do right by him , after all , you caused the damage . Let your conscious be your guide
Old 06-04-2008, 09:52 PM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

Kat, there is a time starting right after you solo and depending on your skill, say six months later, that you are going to burn up a lot of planes. The day I soloed, one of our old timers told me, "now you can start to learn to fly". It wasn't but two or three weeks later that I put my first 4* in. Just like you, I got disorenated, and in a panic, I pulled full up elevator. One of the wildest loops you ever saw. It cleared the runway by about 1/4 inch and I actually got it back on a level footing. Then I saw it was going right into the pits and again, Full up elevator and a lot of ailerons at the same time, and this time a full speed half loop. Panic sets in when you are disorentated. Trying to control it and make smooth moves to try to figure your orentation are called for. Inexperience dooesn't allow for that. Sticks to the corners and pick up the pieces. I've done this more times than I like to remember, sure hope I'm done, but I doubt it.

Even the seasoned guys, some of my instructors, have done some really dumb things at times. I watched one coming in for a landing and he was to slow and the plane was wobbling arround badly. He then froze. A couple clicks of throttle and al would have been good. Instead he wobbled it right over the pits and dropped it on the hill side behind our field. I haven't seen a single instructor I flew with that hasn't crashed at least one, and most two or more since I flew with them on the buddy box. It happens.

Now to your delima. Offer to replace his plane. Not buy him a new one, but hand him back a plane that is the same as he lent you. He'll probably tell you no. Then your idea of taking him and wife out for a dinner, you join in and pick up the tab, it would be a good gesture. It all depends on the guy. Anyway. sorry to hear you had another crash.

Don



Old 06-04-2008, 09:54 PM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

Thanks guys. Definitely a learning experience, in many ways.

Hi Rob.
Old 06-04-2008, 10:07 PM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

2 planes in one week!!![X(] Maybe the flying gods are trying to tell you something. This hobby can get expensive in a hurry. I would just relax a bit on the high risk aerobatics for a bit until you get more stick time. It sounds like you are progressing very quickly in this hobby (maybe to quickly). Slow things down and enjoy learning to control your planes in all types of situations, especially with the trainer planes. They have limits to what they can do and what they are capeable of recovering from. Orientation and knowing what to do in panic situations is all part of the learning curve. Just sit back, take a breather, collect your thoughts and get back on the sticks and fly. I like to wring out a plane now and then but I also like to fly my Sunday flier planes and relax also. And I have just as much fun doing either. Save the hardcore aerobatics for your 1st 3D or sport aerobatic airship.
As far as your friends plane goes, he was nice enough to loan you one SO..... you break it - you bought it!!
I guess you won't be modding the old NexStar anytime soon huh??

Cheers and happy flying, FOK[sm=thumbs_up.gif]

Curt
Old 06-04-2008, 10:09 PM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

Their is no other way to look at it, you are obligated to replace and make him whole period.

Its one thing to test other peoples airplanes for them under request or or train them using their airplanes and that comes with an entirely different set of obligations and responsibilitys however borrowing airplanes for your own enjoyment or perhaps your continued training is very bad form and most seasoned flyers would never do that.

If you expect for this individual to remain a friend either do the right thing in the form of replacement or make some other form of restitution.

John
Old 06-05-2008, 12:06 AM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

I agree, replace the plane. It's just courtesy and it will insure that the same person will be eager to help in the future should you ever need it.

Now, as for the crash... sorry to hear about it. A crash can deflate you pretty quick and ruin an otherwise perfect day. Everyone has been there and likely will again.

The key is to learn from it. This is hard to convey in a written forum but I mean this in a very constructive, helpful way... Maybe a couple crashes close together like that is an indicator that you should slow down and concentrate on the basics. I know it's easy to get bored when things really go well but you can get sucked into a false sense of confidence. I know because I've been there. I would honestly leave that Dolhpin in the box and buy two Avistars. One to replace your buddy's and one to fly. It may not seem like the cool thing to do but it will pay big dividends in the long run.
Old 06-05-2008, 12:52 AM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

Aww CMON gaRCfield. What are you doing to these planes! Seems like you need to take yourself high and let the plane do what it wants. Look away for a few, Look back again and react quickly to head for a picked point.Make sure ur at a safe altitude. You dont necessarily have to get the plane spinning but when you see it again and then act quickly to get it to your set point it will help your reaction time. I look away comstanlty with my nexstar. maybe add a couple jolts to the sticks and then look again. This works well for trainers. Not sure ud want to risk that with a better less forgiving plane.
Old 06-05-2008, 01:05 AM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

gaRCfield, have you checked into SPADS? they are planes made of coroplast and raingutter downspout. there is a wholr thread on them. when I got back into flying, I crashed my balsa trainer twice, then I found spads. now my two boys and I can crash and not be out a whole lot and they are quick and easy to build. they can be built for as little as 20 bucks an airframe plus engine and electronics. alot of the parts come from the hardware store. I know where your coming from about building and I love to build but 3 to 4 weeks of that , then fly and crash, nah spads are for me. check out the thread on this forum and "spadtothebone"
Old 06-05-2008, 05:22 AM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

Look away for a few, Look back again and react quickly to head for a picked point
While this might seem like a good technique to teach yourself recovery from bad situations, PLEASE don't do it this way.

I tell my students NEVER take their eyes off their plane. If there are other planes in the air, get someone to spot for you. If you have to look at your transmitter, hold it up so you can see the transmitter and the plane at the same time.

If you want to learn recovery from bad situations, get back on a buddy box and have a friend set the plane up for you, then you take over to recover.

There is no shame in having someone help you learn to fly better.

And for building and flying planes that can really take the punishment, I HIGHLY endorse SPADS. I've recycled many of them, and have several sheets of coroplast that are just waiting their turn.

Brad
Old 06-05-2008, 06:41 AM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

gaRCfield,

Take your friend shopping. Tell them that you feel bad and that you can't put a price on your friendship so let them order what they want.
Be prepare for the sticker shock. You may think what you did was only worth $X but when your friend presents the bill be prepared to pay more.

I know you feel bad and perhaps you realize you should not have flown a borrowed plane in the manner you did, but you should let your friend determine the damage. You may disagree with it, but that is how I would do it.

Alternatively, just ask him what he feels a fair amount of the cost would be and give him the cash.
Old 06-05-2008, 08:42 AM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

The maneuver you described is an immelman, a simple enough maneuver to perform. What I can't understand is: "and by the time I figured out the attitude of the plane I was out of rudder to correct it." Chances are that that is the least effective control on the plane. Depending on the planes true attitude I suspect that ailerons and/or elevator would have been the control of choice. If a 3 channel the rudder would have made a bit more sense.
Old 06-05-2008, 08:43 AM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

ORIGINAL: rwright142

gaRCfield,

Take your friend shopping. Tell them that you feel bad and that you can't put a price on your friendship so let them order what they want.
Be prepare for the sticker shock. You may think what you did was only worth $X but when your friend presents the bill be prepared to pay more.

I know you feel bad and perhaps you realize you should not have flown a borrowed plane in the manner you did, but you should let your friend determine the damage. You may disagree with it, but that is how I would do it.

Alternatively, just ask him what he feels a fair amount of the cost would be and give him the cash.
WHAT!!?? What if he wants a fully loaded giant scale aerobat?

I like to think I'm a fairly nice guy, but not THAT nice. Ask him if he would either like the aircraft replaced like new or an equivalent sum of money to put towards something else.

This is exactly why I don't like to fly other people's aircraft. I will train people and maiden an aircraft if somebody asks, but won't just fly something around for fun. Believe it or not, I get asked if I want to fly somebodies aircraft just for fun quite a bit (I must be fooling them into thinking I can fly worth a darn ). Anyway, I almost never take people up on their offer because I get so darn nervous about it. If I do, I make darn sure I can afford to replace the aircraft and have the time to replace it promptly.
Old 06-05-2008, 09:07 AM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

ORIGINAL: Nathan King

WHAT!!?? What if he wants a fully loaded giant scale aerobat?

I like to think I'm a fairly nice guy, but not THAT nice. Ask him if he would either like the aircraft replaced like new or an equivalent sum of money to put towards something else.
Yeah, that would be bad if the friend was serious with that kind of a replacement. If he was serious, I would question the friendship. My 2nd option was just like you said about offering cash. That may be the best offer.

There has to be a cutoff amount though. I guess it all depends on how bad he feels about crashing a "friends" plane. What's your definition of friend? Mine is like the old adage:
"A friend will bail you out of jail, a true friend will be right next to you in the same cell..."

I agree with you about flying other's planes. I would just be too nervous as well, but if I ever did I would be prepared to pay whatever THEY think is fair. Granted, if it was a $99 plane with very old electronics, and their replacement price was WAY out of line then I would suggest alternatives. In my opinion, a friendship has no dollar amount attached. Replacement planes on the otherhand... [sm=lol.gif]






Old 06-05-2008, 09:09 AM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

Talk to him first. It may just happen that you've become part of a pay-it-forward scheme. That is, your friend donated a trainer to a newbie. Now its your turn to donate a trainer to a newbie.

Brad
Old 06-05-2008, 09:22 AM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

ORIGINAL: bruce88123

The maneuver you described is an immelman, a simple enough maneuver to perform. What I can't understand is: "and by the time I figured out the attitude of the plane I was out of rudder to correct it." Chances are that that is the least effective control on the plane. Depending on the planes true attitude I suspect that ailerons and/or elevator would have been the control of choice. If a 3 channel the rudder would have made a bit more sense.
OMG, I meant ELEVATOR!!!

Anyway, my first choice is to buy a new Avistar from Tower. Second choice is a gift certificate to Tower for the cost of the plane plus shipping (he's been talking a lot about the Super Tigre 51, and does have a lot of planes). Either way, a replacement of something equivalent to a plane is in order. I took the plane and flew it on the edge until I crashed it. Being willing to buy him something that's more than the cost of a new plane, plus shipping, imo, is out of the question.

What did I learn...

Not to fly someone else's plane LIKE THAT. I underestimated '2 mistakes high'. To talk to some experienced guys about how to approach doing these moves; maybe I'm missing something. Also, kill the throttle when I get disoriented, to buy me time (and dirt less time to get in my engine).

Thanks all.
Old 06-05-2008, 09:57 AM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

ORIGINAL: gaRCfield
Being willing to buy him something that's more than the cost of a new plane, plus shipping, imo, is out of the question.
What about the electronics, engine, etc.? Do you know they are all OK?

Lessons learned are expensive, but the good news is that you learned something. Hope the friendship only grows from this point on.

Good luck!
Old 06-05-2008, 10:33 AM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...


ORIGINAL: rwright142

ORIGINAL: gaRCfield
Being willing to buy him something that's more than the cost of a new plane, plus shipping, imo, is out of the question.
What about the electronics, engine, etc.? Do you know they are all OK?

Lessons learned are expensive, but the good news is that you learned something. Hope the friendship only grows from this point on.

Good luck!
All my electronics, engine, etc. from my Nexstar. I hope the friendship grows, too. I honestly can't believe I found a guy who's my age, into planes, woodworking, and seeing the same shows as I am (and originally from 15 miles from my home town). Crazy!
Old 06-05-2008, 10:51 AM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

Yeah, I would definitely be wanting a flying plane if it were mine that got ditched.

PS: The "paparazzi" is only after brittany cause she decided to become a nutjob. That's all hollywood and fame are good for.
Old 06-05-2008, 10:56 AM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

I'll try to put this as nicely as I can. I said this in the other thread too. You really need to slow yourself down, you're moving way ahead of your self and your capabilities. Majority of the crashes happen when people get cocky and too comfortable with their ability to do certain things. This seems to be the case for you, You like me, are still new and you just have not had enough stick time to be doing risky flying. You need to fly in a manner where you have full control of the plane at all times. For the first few months, you shouldn't be working on what "cool" things you can do but rather on the orientation of the plane, how it acts to certain stick movements, straight and steady flight... you brain needs to improve it's reaction time before you can do your crazy acrobatics.

I've been flying for a few weeks and have been extensively practicing my orientations, straight flights and so on. Now the stick movements get burned into my brain and I can undo what I just did with them. I no longer have to THINK about which way I need to move the stick, I just move it because my reaction times have GREAT improved. This is what you need to be working on. Otherwise you'll keep getting disoriented and you WILL keep crashing planes. These are not cheap.

Unless you change your methods, I'd give the dolphin a month and you'd be back here again for a "third" plane.
Old 06-05-2008, 11:08 AM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...


ORIGINAL: n19htmare

I'll try to put this as nicely as I can. I said this in the other thread too. You really need to slow yourself down, you're moving way ahead of your self and your capabilities. Majority of the crashes happen when people get cocky and too comfortable with their ability to do certain things. This seems to be the case for you, You like me, are still new and you just have not had enough stick time to be doing risky flying. You need to fly in a manner where you have full control of the plane at all times. For the first few months, you shouldn't be working on what "cool" things you can do but rather on the orientation of the plane, how it acts to certain stick movements, straight and steady flight... you brain needs to improve it's reaction time before you can do your crazy acrobatics.

I've been flying for a few weeks and have been extensively practicing my orientations, straight flights and so on. Now the stick movements get burned into my brain and I can undo what I just did with them. I no longer have to THINK about which way I need to move the stick, I just move it because my reaction times have GREAT improved. This is what you need to be working on. Otherwise you'll keep getting disoriented and you WILL keep crashing planes. These are not cheap.

Unless you change your methods, I'd give the dolphin a month and you'd be back here again for a "third" plane.
Does sound a little harsh but I think it's right on, N19htmare. I need to find some specific things to work on, that will challenge me. I need to ask someone what these are and how to work on them. I got bored flying in squares and 8s, and even started losing interest in touch-and-gos. I started asking about some other flying techniques, and found some more stuff I can try to do with the rudder. You're absolutely right in that I need more stick time before I try to do more of this kind of flying.

I'll bite the bullet, buy the guy a new plane, and start asking guys about flying techniques, and finding low-risk but CHALLENGING things to work on (I need to be challenged otherwise I lose interest).

Luckily I started a new job this week and should be able to afford that replacement plane in a week or so. Considering it was in storage and needed parts from my Nexstar to fly, he shouldn't be too upset.

Thanks guys.
Old 06-05-2008, 11:27 AM
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Default RE: Oops, I did it again...

yes. I agree that it gets boring after a while. You can only do so much with flying a pattern square and 8's and so on but that helps. Very soon you won't be THINKING about what stick movement should be next, you'd just be doing it. I remember when I started flying and the plane was coming at me, it always took me a few seconds to figure out hey, if I move the stick this way, the planes gonna go that way. Then I moved the sticks accordingly. If I did that during a troublesome moment, goodbye plane.
now, I don't think it takes me but a fraction to react.

I realize you're getting bored and trust me, with the Dolphin (I have the 4*, same plane), you won't get bored soon. But please take this as a suggest. Spend a couple of weeks learning the plane, flying it slowly, getting the feel of it. Maybe do the beginner stuff like 8's and pattern circles. Once you are really comfortable with it, move it up a notch and when you get comfortable again, move it up a notch again and so on.

Good Luck.

Also, just buy the guy what you lost. If the plane he gave you came with only servo, then give him a plane with only one servo. Get him a same engine if you can.......maybe even find a good used one.

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