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Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

Old 08-03-2008, 01:41 PM
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n19htmare
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Default Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

So I put in my new DX7 and AR7000 in my four star. Took it up and the trimmings were more off than usual, Lot of right aileron and down elevator. I wanted to fix it in the air and land so I can asjust them mechanically. As soon as I let go the plane would drop so I thought it would be easier if I called out and someone came and helped me trim since i'm still a new flyer. So I call and a Veteran flyer who's been flying for 30 some odd years comes over and I tell him the EXACT following phrase "I need up elevator, it's droping fast when I let go". What does he do? Gives me down elevator and again I say it's dropping even more now. What does he do? ALL the way down elevator trim . Needless to say I plowed it into the sunflower bushels.

ARGH, Why oh why did I ask someone to help and I didn't really mind at the time because it was a 30 year veteran flyer who was going to help me.

The Fuse has very minor damage (ripped landing gear and joints coming loose).No problem. I'll epoxy them.

The wing took the toll. Pics are below ADVICE is needed!!! This is what I need help with~































Old 08-03-2008, 02:21 PM
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

Only work on one piece at a time, or you will feel overwhelmed. It is not beyond repair. You will have to strip off covering anyplace that looks damaged, so you can examine the wood and the joints. You probably don't have more than 4 hours worth of work, not including what you want to do with the covering. You will have to go get some wood, some thin and medium ca, and some 30 min. epoxy. You might want to wait a couple of days, so the anxiety level goes down some. At least you are thinking of fixing it.

When my one Alpha got cracked up, I was going to scrap it. I let it sit for 2 months, then one day I was bored and just figured "I'll take a look at fixing it." It only took 2 hours to complete.


I used to live on Essex St., just off University..
Old 08-03-2008, 02:38 PM
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

There is a distinct possibility that the individual who helped was a mode 1 flyer (far more prevelent thirty years ago) an in reality if your Tx is mode two he may have actually been triming in low throttle.

Just a possibility but regardless this illustrates why I will not solo some one who cannot demonstrate to me that he can consistantly (mode2) reach over with his left thumb and find either the pitch or roll trim on the right side without ever looking and can consistantly retrim after I have deliberately run it out of trim pitch and roll.

With the typical total trim throw used on most Tx's there is no need to crash when out of trim and yes it is rather difficult and disconcerting but thats why we practice the technique.

John
Old 08-03-2008, 03:32 PM
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

I am sure I would fix it too. Personaly I woud strip all the covering off the wing and lay it out and make sure its 100% the best it can be. Some stuff under the covering could be cracked or tweaked. Good luck with the repair.
Old 08-03-2008, 04:08 PM
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n19htmare
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

I usually trim it my self but something was wrong with the trimmings because they were WAY off so I wanted to trim it right and bring it down. I mistakenly asked someone to do the trim while I handled the sticks. It did not cross my mind even the SLIGHTEST bit that a 30 year veteran will do this considering he also flies a DX7 on mode 2.

anyways, the Fuse is fixed. . Only the wing is left. I am planning on stripping it all down and using a different design on the trimmings.

I still need some advice on how to fix the rib sparts... the front is broke, do I need ALL new ribs? That's a lottt of work if I need to make the wing from scratch.

Old 08-03-2008, 04:20 PM
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

n19htmare,
Minnflyer has done a very good How-to on wing repair. Take a look through it and it should go a long way to answering a lot of your questions about repairing the damage.

[link]http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/article_display.cfm?article_id=998[/link]

Ken
Old 08-03-2008, 05:34 PM
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

Perhaps you confussed the 30 yr veteran..If you told me the trimmings were off I'd have no idea what you were talking about...if You had said the trims were off then I'd have known...it's probably a typo but you did say down rudder....
the point I'm making here, and I've done it myself, is to calm your voice when explaining something to someone that walks up in the middle what you are doing...You have got to give them the chance to catch up to you....just food for thought
Good Flyin
Old 08-03-2008, 07:01 PM
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

My take on this is that possibly you had your elevator reversed I came across this once before. To a beginner it's possible that you may think pushing stick up would be up and pushing stick down would be down. Seems like a likely possibility our minds work that way.
Old 08-03-2008, 08:32 PM
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n19htmare
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

Elevator was not reversed. I triple checked my control surfaces so did the other flyers and they helped me with range test after I cycled my tx battery (as suggested by a flyer in my radio thread). and no, it was not out of range or any of that because after the plane crashed i immediately looked at the trim and the bar was all the way up. Which with 40% expo had GREAT reduced my throw on up elevator. Again it did not cross my mind to flip the Dual rate switch...Grrr.

I was holding up elevator all the way and the plane was Level to the ground and slowly descending. It was all so quick that I had no time to check and see if he did the trim in the right direction. I had to make a decision, either try to turn around and stall the plane or let it slowly descend into the sunflower bushels. I decided to let it descend. That's what kept the damge to a minimal as apposed to free fall from a stall.


Anyways, I've pretty much stripped all the covering from the wing because I want a different color/design anyways. I am also planning on removing one rib while I'm at it. My question is what is the best adhesive to use here?

Wood glue takes way too long

Epoxy is fast if i use 6min but adds weight.

would thick CA be the way to go?
Old 08-04-2008, 03:00 AM
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Spacemonkey71
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

I saw those pictures and read the story and all I could think was "OUCH!!!!!!" my post about plowing SOMEONE ELSE'S plane into the trees today and how EVERYONE helped me out (even telling me they'd re-skin it and rebuild the elevator for free!) really shows a contrast in the way some people handle problems with grace and generosity and others either CAN'T or WON'T.... even if it's their fault and not yours!

I got so amazingly lucky with the group that I was flying with that I'm still stunned and amazed at their generosity. I wish you the best of luck in fixing it and I wish you could have been flying with the group I was with [&o] they would have told you step by step how to fix it, and then helped you do it without even asking. I guess some people are just "good people" and some just don't know the difference.....

I wonder how many people get out of the sport because of events like yours (someone comes along when you need real help, screws you up, and then just walks away like nothing happened) and how many people look forward to their next flight because of events like mine. I got very, very lucky to have met such amazing people and I truly wish you the best of luck in finding some of those "good people" in your group. They DO exist. I guess they're just more prevalent in some places than others.... []
Old 08-04-2008, 03:17 AM
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n19htmare
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!


ORIGINAL: Spacemonkey71

I saw those pictures and read the story and all I could think was "OUCH!!!!!!" my post about plowing SOMEONE ELSE'S plane into the trees today and how EVERYONE helped me out (even telling me they'd re-skin it and rebuild the elevator for free!) really shows a contrast in the way some people handle problems with grace and generosity and others either CAN'T or WON'T.... even if it's their fault and not yours!

I got so amazingly lucky with the group that I was flying with that I'm still stunned and amazed at their generosity. I wish you the best of luck in fixing it and I wish you could have been flying with the group I was with [&o] they would have told you step by step how to fix it, and then helped you do it without even asking. I guess some people are just "good people" and some just don't know the difference.....

I wonder how many people get out of the sport because of events like yours (someone comes along when you need real help, screws you up, and then just walks away like nothing happened) and how many people look forward to their next flight because of events like mine. I got very, very lucky to have met such amazing people and I truly wish you the best of luck in finding some of those "good people" in your group. They DO exist. I guess they're just more prevalent in some places than others.... []
You're lucky!

I went and got my plane, went to my pit area and started assessing the damage. I then proceeded to further take the covering off and see what was going on. This gentleman did not even come to my pit area to say sorry or to see if he could give me some pointers. I'm not sure if he felt so bad that he didn't even wanna talk to me or what?

I'm not mad at him, more so at my self. but Live and learn and that's the name of the game here. Just gotta pick up some balsa tomorrow, make the spar ribs and recover the wing.

I hope to be at the field next saturday
Old 08-04-2008, 07:15 AM
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

I would say, you have a great attitude. You are probably right, the guy felt bad and didn't know what to say. There is also the possibility couldn't gauge your reaction, so he stayed away. You may want to reach out to him next time at the field, just to make sure all is well and to show there is no hard feelings. Please post some pictures of the rebuid, or at least of the completed rebuild.
Old 08-04-2008, 08:38 AM
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

HE HE. Sounds way to familiar!! The exact same thing happened to my brother and me. He was maidening his brand new, kit built SIG Hog Bipe last year. He took off and said it was handling wierd. I asked if "he had it" and he said NO. Then I could tell from the panic in his voice that he was in trouble. Let me tell you, things happen way to fast with these aircraft when things go wrong.
Anyway, he yelled out to me to come and help. He said he needed UP TRIM. So I hastelly proceeded to give him up elevator. This had no effect and he was really struggling now to keep it flying. He said "give it some more" and I did . Still way out of control. He said he was going to try and bring it in. But 30 feet above the runway she stalled and SPLAT, nosed in, broke the motor mount and drove the wheel pants through the bottom wing.
After we serveyed the damage we proceeded to see what went wrong. Nothing wrong with the aircraft, just our communication. He was calling for UP TRIM on his TX which would bring his elevator down but I was giving him DOMN on elev.trim which was moving his elev.up. When panic sets in communication can get lost.
Needless to say, I felt like ****, so I took his plane home and fixed it up for him. I was at the REMAIDEN one week later and went nowhere near his TX trims again. He dialed in a little down elev. before he took off and everything went AOK.
Communication is a two way street, but like I said, when panic sets in it can be lost.

Cheers

Curt
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Old 08-04-2008, 10:03 AM
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

If everything happened the way you said then the "veteran" screwed up. But even then you should have been able to fly the plane even with FULL wrong trim. Easy? No, but doable. Your instructions to him seem clear and the bit about mode 1 vs mode 2 is ridiculous. Engine trim is only effective near idle and you would simply have needed to add power but I doubt you were that slow anyway. If you were soloed you should have been able to handle it. If the plane is pitching down then set it into a climb and then GLANCE away to the trims if needed. Worry about one axis at a time, whichever is causing the most problem. Worst case scenario - just fly the plane and land it. Worry about the trim after landing. You WILL have planes that can NOT be trimmed so be ready for that too.
Old 08-04-2008, 10:21 AM
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

Nightmare,
Sorry to hear about the crash, it's never good to hear someone you know crashing. Which field were you at, the Drones or the CVRCC? What's the chord on the wings? I have a wing set from a Pheonix Dolphin (http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXLJT2&P=Z) just hanging in my garage which I modified for dual ailerons but I also kept the center section for single aileron operation which I can let go for a small proce or even free. If the 4 start wing you have becomes too much of a headache or if you want to kit bash the 4 star into a sweet bipe, just let me know and we can meet up for the exchange.

-Shane
Old 08-04-2008, 11:46 AM
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MasterAlex
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

With all our nuances, innuendos, visualizations, etc. isn’t it amazing we can communicate as well as we do with just the spoken word?

Reminds me of the “telephone game” (aka Chinese Whispers, Russian Scandal) we used to all play as kids.

Anyway, whenever I am helping someone trim their elevator I always ask or repeat what I’m going to do before I do it; remember it’s the heat of the moment and people may not mean what they say.

For example:
Pilot: “Give me some UP trim”
Me: “You want me to give you UP elevator? You need the plane to climb?”
Pilot: “Yes”
Me: <applying UP trim to the elevator> “Giving you UP elevator trim.”

I’ve seen people get confused in this situation. They hear “UP” trim and move the trim up (giving the exact opposite desired effect). I think this can happen to anyone, including experienced flyers. Better to over-communicate when issuing these types of orders than to assume your helper understood your request.

BTW, Sourkraut – Nice Hog! [8D]
Old 08-04-2008, 12:08 PM
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n19htmare
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!


ORIGINAL: shane.barton

Nightmare,
Sorry to hear about the crash, it's never good to hear someone you know crashing. Which field were you at, the Drones or the CVRCC? What's the chord on the wings? I have a wing set from a Pheonix Dolphin (http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXLJT2&P=Z) just hanging in my garage which I modified for dual ailerons but I also kept the center section for single aileron operation which I can let go for a small proce or even free. If the 4 start wing you have becomes too much of a headache or if you want to kit bash the 4 star into a sweet bipe, just let me know and we can meet up for the exchange.

-Shane
Thanks Shane i'll do the measurements when I get home but it looks like I should be able to repair it.

The fuse s fixed, only needs some covering done, while the wing I pretty stripped it all like I said ab above. I'll have to make new slots for the CA hinges and redo the torque rod. Fix all the ribs and some sheeting. and then I'm pretty much done and need only covering.

Couple questions.

1) What type glue is best? I don't wanna sit there for hours holding the rib in its' spot :P I mentioned this above be seems it was overlooked.

2) Is it possible to remove the torque rod that I epoxied in the aileron when I put the plane together?



As far as communication goes, I'm 110% sure I said that I need more up elevator, the plane is dropping when I let go of sticks. But what's done is done, I'm looking for more of a how to now.

MinnFlyer suggests that you make the leading edge ribs by cloning the good ones and then attaching them (to the side of the old ones). My question is what if there is no old one left? There are few where I can't attach it at all. I'll post pics when I get home.


Old 08-04-2008, 12:45 PM
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

I've fixed worst. Again and again.
I build and fly my models..so it's all pilot error when the same guy build it and fly it.lol

well...It's not your instructor responsiblities to do preflight for YA (every flight). If you can't tell there's was more or less movements
on your control surface. It's not rocket science. I don't know what to tell you.


It's still pilot error..if you don't know how to trim preflight or during flight or set up your model.
Espacially when it's the elevator. You have to re trim constantly during flight anyway.

Just wack it flash to the spar and make new ones. The wing tips would make a good stencil.

That model was doomed anyway. Look at how the airleron just come out of the hinges.
I'd drill tooth picks or sholve T pins (then clip it), to the rest of the hinges....other wise it'll be another pilot error.
Old 08-04-2008, 02:35 PM
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TedMo
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

Somehow we are not communicating. In this post you say you looked at the trim after crash and bar was all the way UP!!!. That IS DOWNTRIM. When properly set, UP on stick gives you down, DOWN on stick gives up.Seems contrary but that's how it is.The same is so for trim lever. Also the amount of expo has no affect on total throw of surface. Expo ONLY provides a soft center.
Old 08-04-2008, 03:24 PM
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n19htmare
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

ORIGINAL: TedMo

Somehow we are not communicating. In this post you say you looked at the trim after crash and bar was all the way UP!!!. That IS DOWNTRIM. When properly set, UP on stick gives you down, DOWN on stick gives up.Seems contrary but that's how it is.The same is so for trim lever. Also the amount of expo has no affect on total throw of surface. Expo ONLY provides a soft center.

All i said was give me some more up elevator and that the plane was droping if I let go of sticks. I didn't tell him which way to press the button, I assumed since he's been flying the same radio for 2 years or so, he would know. To give me up elevator, he should have moved the Trim button DOWN. instead, he pressed the trim button UP.

Again, there's no point in discussing this matter any further, I have no hard feelings for him. He's a good pilot and has helped me in the past. It was probably an honest mistake on his part or just bad communication on both our parts. I thought I was clear, apparently I could have been more clear or done it myself but I was just afraid being a new flyer and all.

Anyways, I went and picked up some Thick CA and balsa. I'll probably make the trace tonight and cut out some ribs tonight and see where it goes.


Sig uses their own covering so if I want t he exact same red, I would have to pay $22(with $9.99 shipping) for just one roll + $12 for white because I want some white in my red (cost for two rolls from tower $34). . I'm thinking it's cheaper for me to get a roll of different color and redo the WHOLE plane (cost of two rolls of monokote or ultrakote is $24 and $30 resp).

Those who have made the SIG 4 star 40 kit, will two rolls suffice?
Old 08-04-2008, 03:27 PM
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n19htmare
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

ORIGINAL: flyX



That model was doomed anyway. Look at how the airleron just come out of the hinges.
It didn't . I cut it off by slicing the ca hinges to fix where the torque rod joins the wing. It was easier if the aileron was off. Only one that you se in the picture is intact, it came out with a chunk of balsa out of the aileron .

I'm VERY satisfied with my CA hinges.
Old 08-04-2008, 07:36 PM
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flyX
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

Well you forgot to sliced one.

Are you going to re inforce the mount that got ripped away ?
I'd just cut into the bottom sheeting and wack a little bit off of the rib #2 so I can install a doubler for the TE.

I probably give you more up trim if you said you need more up trim..meaning i would had slide the trim down.

It still dosen't matter though, You should be able to fly a model out of trim.

Don't worry it's going to be one of those model that's going to fly forever.
It's just at the begining of earning it's war scars
On the next crash, you'll just use whatever covering that's laying around.

Beside...you need to clip the wings on a 4* for it to fly right.
Old 08-04-2008, 09:50 PM
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Nathan King
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

I saw this very thing happen at our field. A guy was flying an airplane that was way out of trim. He called out for his buddy to come over and move the tabs for him. Well, aparently there was some cognitive dissonance between the two somewhere between the pilot's mouth and his friend's finger. The airplane went into a tree. It has since been repaired.
Old 08-04-2008, 10:47 PM
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shane.barton
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

N19tmare,
I took the measurements of the Dolphin wing.
Wingspan:61 1/2"
Chord: 10 1/4"
Chord at bolt down on TE of wing: 9 3/8"

I forgot to measure the distance between the two holes for the bolts now that I think about it. But I am sure it's wouldn't be too hard to work around it. I also snapped a few pics with my phone of the wing to show where I had intended to place the dual servos and show that the center mount and hardware is still intact. Just let me know if you need it, it's just taking up space in my garage.
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:36 AM
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Default RE: Crash (pics): Lesson Learned today THough. Do your own trimmings!

n19htmare,

Here's another wing repair article that may help you out - it's from the wing repair I had to do on an Alpha 60.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/a...article_id=910

Hogflyer

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