Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

Igot to the field to try out a new setup on my plane. Another older gentleman showed up with a Nexstar and said he had just soloed, and aked that Ikeep an eye on him and offer help if he needed. Idid just that. He had some trouble taxiing the plane and asked that Itake it up and check it out. Being familiar with the Nexstar, I did just that. It had the typical Nexstar severe pull to the right after take-off, which we both were assuming was giving him trouble. Itrimmed it out and got it flying very nice and very high, and handed over the sticks. He took control, made one GIANT turn, losing altitude the whole time, and wrecked the plane so far out it was out of our field, across the road, and into another field in front of a house. At one point he half-heartedly tried handing me the remote when the plane was about 5 or 10 feet from the ground but Ididn't feel it was the right move to take the controls at this point. Another person had showed up at the field, verified that this man had soloed (prior to the incident), and that Ihadn't done anything wrong. It didn't feel good, regardless.

Here's where the real concern is:

We have no standardized requirement for soloing. You can work with a trainer as long as you need, but once you've got one flight with total control, they give you the solo. Ieven remember being there myself, asking for help the day after Isoloed, and was told 'hey, that's it - you've soloed!' And my solo was completely unsupervised by any instructor, only by two club members telling me Ishould just fly the plane (having seen my personal capabilities in the days prior). Unfortunately Ihad thought of all this after the plane had crashed. Ihad assumed that the (very talented pilots that we have as) instuctors had told him he was soloed only when he was able to control the plane, safely, on his own.

We have a club with about 60 members, maybe 35 or 40 who are pretty active. There were three instructors until one stepped down after losing one of those H9 Jet-like trainers. Iwill bring up the issue that we need to be more strict with soloing at our next meeting and need more instructors, but the problem is that the instructors don't have tons of time and don't want to spend their only 2 or 3 days available helping others - they like to fly planes, too. So it seems to me like they (or at least one out of the two) want to do the bare minimum to get soneone on their own so they can spend some of their time flying their own planes - can't blame them for wanting that, though maybe it's not right.

We need more instructors, but a pilot needs to be willing AND needs to be capable; hard to find someone who is both, and it is a lot of responsibility. Ithought Iwanted to be an instructor at some point but might be having second thoughts. Either way Idon't think it's my time yet with only one year (to the month) of RC experience, although Itry to help as much as Ican on the ground with engines, setting up planes, explaining things, etc.

Point of this story is that a member showed up 'soloed' and yet was not able to control his aircraft. People and property in the surrounding neighborhood could have been in danger. Iwas the one who put the plane in the sky.

Can of worms officially opened.

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

You watched him go from a high alitude to a crash in a gentle wide turn?

You should be grounded for a couple of weeks to think about this.

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

He let the plane get pretty far away. I was advising him to bring it back in, and to pull up a little. It was hard to tell exactly where or when he was not able to recover, but apparently he could not handle doing both of those tasks at the same time. He said he understood what I was saying and wanted to pull up, but got confused. I was not under the impression that I was responsible for his safe-flying; he said he was fine flying just struggled with the plane veering to the right on take-off. I clearly told him my flying experience and that I would simply take off with the plane for him.

If me being grounded is what people actually think should happen, it is what  I will do.

I posted a thread on our club's site about requirements for solo and instruction and will make sure this is addressed at our next meeting.

michael wood

My Feedback: (1)

when I first started flying we had to be able to take off and land 3 times and each time we had to come to a full stop not touch and go. While flying the instructor would move a trim while you were flying to see if you could retrim the plane( of coursethe plane was up high in case you got into trouble) and he would take control and strighten it out . Back then we didnt have buddy boxes it was hand the tranmitter and back then people (instructors) would spen the time with you. Right now I am teaching two people to fly using a buddy box and i will spend the time with them to make sure that they can fly and handle it and no you should not ground yourself but think what if it was you.There are not many in this sport and the more we asa group can get peopl instrested in fly it means more people joining clubs just my 2 cents hope i didnt offend anybody it was not my intent thanks michael

TedMo

GaRC: I have read many of your posts and believe you have always attempted to be helpful and given intelligent advise. Ok, maybe you could have taken over control before plane got too far gone, but things happen fast so I can understand. Yes your club needs better training rules and glad to see you promote that. No you should not be grounded, hopefully this experience provides iniatative for better instruction.

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

Remember when you got your first lesson in flying?

Remember how it wasn't as easy as you thought it would be?

You just had your first lesson in being an instructor - it's not as easy as you might think

brett65

My Feedback: (18)

+1

rgm762

My Feedback: (4)

gaRCfield; to stir your "can of worms" a little bit, should there be a "standard" set by the AMA as to when a person is capable of solo flight?

draftman1

It also sounds like he wasnt really ready to solo. the original instructor should havnt cut him off so soon.  as an instructor, I make for darn sure the student  is ready to solo, and then we kep an eye on them just in case.   maybe just another week or two of working with the student would have prevented this crash.

Villa

Hi gaRCfield
Don't sweat it. I got in trouble at our club when I made a light hearted comment after I crashed a student's plane's during a landing because I could not save it at the last moments. I have saved hundreds of student planes, and I probably should have been able to save this one also. But I did not. Heck, I occasionally crash my plane also. Most people do not realize how blind we are during a landing because we really cannot tell how close to the ground we are when conditions have changed (such as when flying a plane you are not familiar with, or coming in at an angle in windy conditions). Depth perception due to binocular vision is good for only about 17 feet. After that experience I decided that maybe I was getting too old (I'm only 73) to help people and now do very little of it. I thought the crash was minor because I fly a lot, with many different planes, and a small crash like that means nothing to me. I have crashed hundreds of time, but I crash very rarely. The SPAD planes I design, build and fly now can take a severe beating. He thought that crash was a tragety. I always tell a student that I will do my best, but if the plane crashes the repairs are his, not mine.

CGRetired

My Feedback: (1)

Should he feel bad?  Absolutely.  Should he stop flying?  I don't t think so.

He was not the instructor of record,  If he was the instructor, then, sure, stop instructng until he gets up to speed with enough time and experience to be able to pass that on to another person.  There is more to being an instructor than simply being able to fly.  Decisions as to do what and when are not suddenly osmosed once a person solo's and flys high-performance or highly capable aircraft.

As Minnflyer said, it's a lesson in being an instructor. 

Will it happen again?  I seriously doubt it.

We all hope that both people involved learned something through this experience.

CGr

red head

 Lately I think the ARF thing has entered the training phase also, ~  ~~~  I want it now, that's not quick enough etc.

  I have seen and been pushed toward getting students in the air and down once and let them go.  In fact, I have thought a number of times of quiting teaching just so I'm not a part (in any way) of this modern thinking.

  I tried a few years ago to get standards in AMA for students and instructors and was informed that AMA only makes suggestions not RULES.  I can understand their problem and I don't have an answer, I just wish I did, it could make this hobby much more fun for all if we could have some kind of set rules.

  Of course in this day and age NO one would go along with it because it would restrict them a little and go against their way of thinking.

 Thanks for reading my rant, now I'm gone.     ENJOY   !!!   RED

silverx10

Wow, that seems just a tad harsh.

Given the fact that—as has been said—he's not the individual's designated instructor, I can't say as I agree with that assessment. Granted, I come from Alaska where flying may be a bit more cavalier than down here in the lower 48's, but... yeah, that just seems harsh.

Especially given the additional fact that it seems that the OPis obviously unsettled enough by what happened to begin with. I'm pretty sure that if I were in his shoes, I'd prolly have done the exact same thing; as unfortunate as it may be.

I'd say just live and learn, mang. He asked for your assistance, and you provided it to the best of your ability.

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

You were asked to perform as an instructor or safety pilot.  I know the desire to help out is very strong, but you have to stay within your abilities.  Knowing when to bail out on a bad situation takes time, an the only way to achieve the knowledge is to put yourself out there.  As an instructor, you will fail from time to time.  But if you learn something from failure then not all is lost.

It is a big help to instructors if people are willing to help with the set-up and inspection of new models.  But at first, someone with more experience should keep an eye on what you are doing and give each plane the final OK.

There are no instructor schools, and because of this learning to instruct is largely trial and error.  It mostly depends on developing a critial eye and some degree of judgement.

As there is a wide degree of flying ability, there is also a wide degree of instructing ability.  But the good ones never stop learning.

jimmyjames213

My Feedback: (2)

+1 for that
i tried to each a few people with my gws slowstick thinking that they could just pickup the tx andkindafly, or semi keep it in the air(kinda like i did when i started out)
boy was i wrong. i had my cousin on a simulator and he could "kinda" fly (not take off and crash, he could keep the plane in the air), so i went to the buddy box, and granted it was a windy day but he couldnt keep it in control for more than a few seconds
i also tried to teach a girl from my highschool. she wasnt bad, by the end of the battery (20 min) she could do a complete circle, and manage to keep the wings level most of the time. but again it was windy and when the wind would throw the plane aroundshe couldnt keep up.

Campgems

Joe, we have a formal solo check list that has to be completed before someone earns their wings.  It is a program that has been in place for about six years or so.  When a studen gets to "take the test", is up to the instructor.  I though I had posted it on our web site, but I have not done it yet.  I'll get a copy  and send it to you.  It is basicly as follows.  Take off an do a series of figure 8s,  Do a few loops,  If the plane will, do rolls, right and left.  Land the plane and then take off again, I believe there is a couple other basics but there is a requrement for three take offs and landings.  The last is the dead stick.  The instructor will have the studen put the plane quite high and basicly fly a big  track,  at some point, the instructor will tell the student to kill the throttle, and the student has to safely land at the field without damage to the plane.  It is OK if it''s a cross runway landing as long as it is controled and safe. 

The instructor giving the test is a different instructor than the one who trained the student. 

After that, the student has earned his wings and as a couple of the old timers said, then they can start to learn to fly.  I know my first year was a steady stream of crashes, all but one caused by dumb thumbs and sometimes a panic freeze. 

 I saw my first instructor freeze up on a landing one day and crash his Hog Bipe.  He was about 50 ft elevation and had missed the lineup correctly and he tried to go around.  The plane was on the verge of a stall, wallowing all over the place.  He finally lost enough elevation that he hit the hill side and brused up the plane a bit.  All he needed to do was apply some throttle. He admitted he just froze up on the sticks.  It happens sometimes when something unexpected happens and mind just doesn't process it right.   Another example was one of our older pilots, a very good one, brought out a big 60 size Cub last week.  He was having an awful time, couldn't take off without sending the pits scattering, and I guess the landing was more of the same.  The club president called me and was talking about it and woundering if we should clip his wings.  It turned out that he had set the cub up like his 3d plane and it wouldn't fly like that.  When one of the other guys set up the throws and added some expo, the guy was flying as good as any at the field.  The setup threw him a curve.  Either or both of these examples could have happened to your guy. 

Don

rgm762

My Feedback: (4)

don't know if this helps, but my instructor, told me its normal for some people to take a few steps bakwards after soloing, I believe him, I soloed, had five or sixs flights without problems, then for some reason i couldn't find the runway anymore, so i went back on the buddy to relearn how to land

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

This definitely has been a learning lesson, in many ways. I'm feeling a bit better about the whole situation. I think a lot of the issue is determining what my role actually was at the field, which may have been perceived different by me and the pilot.

People definitely learn differently, and just because I understand something and explain it does not necessarily mean someone else understands, whether it's about flying or about how much experience and willingness I have to help. I think CG had a really good point in that my plane and my flying seemed to speak a lot louder than my words.

My thoughts were that the pilot was capable of flying a plane, as stated by whoever soloed him; I remembered learning on my Nexstar and how challenging taking off seemed at times, but how easy it was to fly once it was in the air - I assumed it would be the same for this man, which obviously it wasn't.

In my head, I did not believe I was acting as an 'instructor'. I have several times before stood next to a new pilot for comfort and advice, and believed I was doing the same here with the added help of getting the plane off the ground. Had I assumed I was a real 'instructor' I believe I would have handled the entire situation very differently, as in possibly declining. Obviously in the future I need to make very clear what my responsibility is when helping out another club member. I believed my responsibility was to get the plane in the air in a safe manner, check out the flight characterisitics, trim the plane, and hand over the controls in a safe manner, which is exactly what I did.

Our club president has read my post and thanked me for bringing this up. It will be addressed at the next meeting. Campgems, I would love to see what you guys have for a routine. I obviously have no real frame of reference as to what other clubs do or what is appropriate - all I know is what you all taught me, which I feel was very thorough and I honestly tried to take everything I've read here to heart (I spent hours and hours practicing constant bank angles, constant altitude, flying the pattern then moving to figure 8's, etc, and I believe it really paid off, big time!).

It is in my nature to think about this, probably for a long time, andtake as much away from this as possible. I have more passion for thishobby and my club than most other things and want to see my club remainfor a long time, and to see our club members fly in a safe manner andfor everyone to have even a sliver of as much fun as I have flyingplanes. At the same time I remember what it feels like to lose my first plane and want to avoid inflicting that pain on anyone else if at all possible.

As far as a standard for AMA, I think I would need time and a discussion to formulate an appropriate opinion. One side of me says it makes sense for an insurance company to have some type of validation that it's clients are capable of operating whatever it is they are insuring, then the other side says it might ward people off from even trying to get covered.

I am still amazed at how much excitement, passion, care and concern I have for such a seemingly silly hobby. All of this is really important to me and I appreciate all the feedback. I can assure both you and I that I have learned a lot from this. Thanks for the input!

alk6266

My Feedback: (1)

Someone said the AMA should make RULES for soloing?

Is OBAMA online tonight?!

plasticjoe

My Feedback: (22)

When I started flying... I was lucky .. my club's requirements were that you had to take off... fly the pattern... then fly a figure 8... then do a touch and go on the paved runway... then take the plane up about 300-400 ft.... kill the motor and dead stick land anywhere in the field... either on the runway.. or on the other side of the runway... not on the near side.  This takes a while to learn this... but.... once you can perform those tasks... you are ready to fly on your own.
the club I am in now does not require that... I am teaching my son right now how to fly.. and those are going to be his requirements from dad

blhollo2

My Feedback: (278)

hey if you feel so bad why not buy him a new trainer?

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

Back in the day......before buddy cords, it was common to just grab the Xmitter away from a student when the plane had gotten away from them. And often they didn't even realize the plane had gotten away from them.

My point is this, the instructors had to be aggressive. There wasn't much time. You knew what the student hadn't realized yet. You had to get that Xmitter out of their hands and do it now. Most people flying now haven't had experience grabbing someone's Xmitter out of their hands and saving their plane. They watch . They are bystanders. They just aren't conditions to half-mug someone and to save an airplane.

The fact is we have two people in this story that haven't been completely trained. One hasn't been trained to fly. They other hasn't been trained to save. That doesn't mean someone isthe bad guy. No one is the bad guy. But both need additional training.

jetmech05

It is in no way gaRCfield responsibility to look out for a "solo'd" pilot..he asked for assistance which he received......I always tell my students right after they soslo that they are in more danger of crashing now than ever before when desire out weighs abillity......there is no one to blame here...

gaRC you did ok

Good flyin to ya

bjor

In Aus we have the MAAA - which is the equivelant to the AMA. EVERY RC pilot MUST pass a solo efficiency test (Bronze Wings) before he is allowed to fly solo. This test ishas been established and endorsed by the MAAA and is applicable across the whole country. This allows visiting pilots from different states etc to present their bronze wings at different locations with the security that they are solo proficient. The bronze wings test includes things like starting, engine tuning, basic aerodynamic principles, take offs, proceedual turns, rolls, loops, inverted flight, dead sticksand of course landing. The test can only be passed in the presenceof a recognised MAAA instructor. Some clubs also have "assistant instructors" that assist the instructors once a pilot reaches a certain level. I'm an assistant instructor at my club, and often assist beginers when requested. Can you imagine the fall out if you were expected to replace a trainer that crashed in the hands of a student. The instructors would stop instructing, and every body else with experience would stop offering assistance in case they were held responsible. New member numbers would drop (no body to teach them to fly), clubs would be finincially crippled (no new members) and eventually close. We all lose.
GaRCfield, you assisted - maybe even somewhat reluctantly, and a new pilot crashed. Dust yourself down, learn what you can with it, and move on. No blame here.

JPal101

My Feedback: (32)

I think the point about being an instructor is well taken. It takes more than just flying ability you have to recognize a bad situation and take action. I am an experienced pilot, flying 50cc aerobatic aircraft, I had the exact same experience with a fellow member at my club. He had been out of the hobby for a long time and told me he was a "bit rusty" but had flown a 50 size Yak 54 the previous day with no problems. He asked me if I would stand with him as he flew his 140 size Extra with a YS 120 I said sure. I should have gotten the hint when he asked me to take it up for him before he flew it. I did, took off, trimmed it out and handed him the box, he flew fine doing loops and rolls and all sorts of turns until it came time to land. He tried once and was very far off the approach, he tried again and I started giving him directions but he lost orientation and eventually lost the plane in the woods never to be found again. . When I recognized his difficulty I asked him if hewas ok and he said yes, I should havesnatched the box away from him but I gave him the benefit of the doubt . I think the lesson learned for myself is if you feel things are not right, take over no matter what. Ask a lot of questions about their flying experiencebefore youoffer assistance to the person who asks for help.