Aerobatic maneuvers
 

I was reading a post in another thread here in this forum and started wondering...

How do I initiate a flat spin, and how do I get out of it?

CGr.

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

Just know that you need a lot of rudder and elevator to do this well, and some planes will flat spin better than others... a lot better.

I find the easy way is to do a blender:

From straight up vertical, stall the plane (throttle back), let the plane fall into a dive
Begin the spin with aileron only (say right aileron)
Add full right rudder and begin to pull elevator while coming off/out of the right aileron
You will end up with full right rudder and full up elevator at or near idle
*** you can then add a little throttle to help flatten the spin and you *may* need to add a slight amount of opposite aileron (left in this case) to help from rolling out of the flat spin and keep it very wings level

To get out:
Until your very comfortable allow plenty of altitude; release all surfaces to neutral and throttle to idle, plane should be go into a dive, pull elevator to level.

Inverted:
Change the rudder to the left and full down elevator, everything else remains the same.

Hope this made some sense :)

Good luck,
Steve

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

Dick, not all planes are good flat spinners. Most of my pattern planes do require a lot of elevator but I think it's due to there length. My Hots is pretty good but if I miss the timing I mess up the spin, my CG Extra {most Extras} is my best spinner. I also go by the Ed Moorman school of stunts. When Ed was writing for RCR magazine in paper form I would clip out his monthly how to cards and go from there.
I just fly my plane up high straight and level then cut power and watch what way the wing is going to stall, usually left. As soon as I see it stall I pull the sticks over, down left then as it starts down I move my aileron stick slowly over to the right and bump the gas just a bit, instant flat spin.
You better trust your engine when doing them!! Not all planes will pull out if you dead stick. When I'm ready to pull out of it I point the nose straight down and add some throttle as I start pulling up. I lost my old Kaos when the header broke while in a flat spin and the throttle didn't respond. I was pretty low to be pulling out and knew I was in trouble as soon as I saw my muffler and pipe go sailing off. If you want I can scan Ed's pull out instructions for you and email them to you. Been a while sense I read them but I'm real sure Ed explained it better then I did. It's very simple if your plane is set up correctly. I had a 92 inch Decathlon and the flat spin was it's big trick. I always worried about that wing staying on though. I gave that plane away too and it's still being flown but with a better engine.
Hit me with a PM if you want the pull out.
Gene

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

You can start a flat spin with full rudder, up elevator and full aileron while at slow speed. Once in a spin level the ailerons and add a little power. If you are nose heavy you have to work the elevator to find the "sweet spot" that will hold without allowing a nose-down spin. To leave center the sticks and add power. This works for well powered sport models. With an underpowered model - you're on your own for the pull-out. Try to get the nose down and give gradual opposite rudder and addpower.


One of the funniest R/Cevents Iever witnessed was a pilot with his first biplane who was getting verbal help from an old duffer (and also on a buddy-box . . . just in case). He asked how to enter an inverted flat spin, so the old duffer coached him to throttle down and nose up, and just as it tail-slides to give down elevator and then full rudder and a little gas as it nears horizontal while holding rudder and adding opposite aileron. As the biplane entered a nice flat spin the old duffer says:"You know, some models can't recover from a flat spin."

The younger pilot lowered his transmitter with one hand to his side and turns to look slack-jawed at the duffer.

As it turns out the bipe was a Stearman and there was no danger of that at all and had exited the spin when he let go of the sticks.

With some models you need a little opposite aileron to hold it flat, and depending on the C.G. some up or down elevator. Give yoursef pleny of altitude to pull out, which can be with up elevator and power or aileron and power.

Another good entry is a pull-up without power to lose speed and then a wing-over and either pulling up elevator and rudder to enter a flat spin or down elevator and rudder to enter an inverted. With either - adding power will make the spins faster (provided you have a lot of rudder throw).

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

Well, I guess you guys know what I'll be trying next time out to the field.. :D Hey, in true form for this forum, I'm a beginner flat spin pilot... ;)

Thanks for the input, guys!!

CGr.

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

To add to the above. As you first start experimenting with a flat spin, do it WAY WAY up high!!! Every plane is a little bit different about how it comes out of a flap spin. And more importantly, how long it takes to come of the flat spin. It can take a little bit of time before the air starts flowing back over the surfaces and the plane starts flying again. You need to know how long it takes so that you know how much room to leave yourself as you start doing the maneuver lower to the ground and still give yourself enough room to pull out.

I lost my Escapade this way. Came out of the spin too low and just didn't have enough room to pull out and totally rekitted the plane. The funny thing is that if I had just kept it in the flat spin it would have set down on top of the tall grass and probably not been damaged!!!!

Ken

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

You can watch a described video here:

http://www.jamesballard.co.uk/newwil...dflatspin.html

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

My 4*40 does great flat spins. First time I let go of the sticks expecting it to fly out. No way, just kept on spinning. Opposite rudder, down elevator, and some throttle gets it to fly out. Like others have said, do it up high! let us know how it goes.

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

Lnewqban: thanks for the video. That was pretty amazing.. but he has more cajones than I do, coming out at a pretty low altitude. I also see that he has quite a bit more aileron authority than I do on my planes. I'll have to do some dual rate work, I guess.

Yeah, Ken, I understand. Three mistakes high may not be quite enough.. [:@] :D Perhaps I'll move for four or maybe even five!!! ha..

I don't know about that blender thing, sounds to 3D to me... [X(] but hey, potatoes potahtoes I guess.

Maybe I'll build a flat spin plane... oh-oh.. another project to add to the list of uncompleted ones.. nah, I'll use what I have for now. That shower stall/hanger is pretty full right now.. :D

Gene (Gray Beard) Emailed me some call cards that describe the flat spin. I'm gonna study them closely.

Later.

CGr.

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

Dick, what planes do you have? Maybe we can recommend one that will do it better than others (Some won't do it at all)

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

Well, Mike, I have the Goldberg Skylark 70, a Venus II, and an Excelleron 90. The latter two are 90 size "Pattern" planes. I am also in the building processes of a larger plane that is more of a, well, not 3D but not Pattern. It's a Seagull Super Star 120. I have an OS 1.60 for it. I'm about 2/3's done with it. I decided to put pull-pull rudder rather than linkage. Anyway, it's the closest to 3D that I will ever get, but, as I said, more of an in-between Pattern and 3D I guess.

I also have a Tiger 120 that I talked about in the past.. the one with 18 ounces of weight in the nose.. yeah I remember what you said.. that, from what I've read, is a tad bit long for doing those types of maneuvers.

Other than that, and a few electrics, and two trainers.. oh, I forgot.. I also have the Protege that needs some repair.

Dick.

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

None of those will do a great flat spin, but I think the excelleron would be your best bet

Be sure to set the controls so low rate is normal and high rate is insane!

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

I can't see why the Venus II won't do a flat spin. Spins are part of the Patten routines.

Planes that get into a flat spin and out of it are usually anything with sufficient rudder authority, and can stall. Trainer s are poor at flat spins but sport planes are good and scale aerobats are great.
Tapered symmetrical wing, CG close to CP i.e neutral or whisker closeto nose heavy usually does it well.
Good throws on the control surfaces and a decently strong engine.
any plane with the Cg too far forward won't spin...

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

The video posted is a blender, spin to a flat spin but he does it inverted.

Good luck, you have some very good post to your question.


Steve

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

Hey CGGoogle SeaGull superstar 120 and you will see a video of it in flight. doing knife edges, stall turns and flat spins.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attac...hmentid=903780

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

With my Stik, I get it way up high. Then down elevator until the nose is pointed straight down. Then left or right aileron. Once is starts to roll, give it down elevator. This will make it roll even more quickly. Then if you want to throw in a blender, give the rudder opposite input from the direction of the roll (eg. if aileron roll left, then give it right rudder) and release aileron. Keep holding onto the down elevator. This should make it roll onto the back and slow the descent significantly. You can also feed in throttle while in a blender and it will make it spiral more violently. To get out, I just release all inputs and pull out.

The blender is one of my favorite maneuvers. It's very easy to do, looks cool, and is a ton of fun. Yet at my field, no one does them....ever.

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

Sorry, you can tell I am not that kind of pilot. Might as well ask, what is the difference between the blender and the flat spin?

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

Thanks, Gene. Neat stuff. I guess I had better get that Super Star finished. It's just sitting there collecting dust at the moment. I presume that OS 1.60 is enough engine??? ha.. No, I won't send it to you... :eek: :D (anticipating that comment... ha)

You know, Jayhawk, I've done something similar to that now that I think of it.. perhaps by accident.. :D but it was indeed cool to do. I often climb high, do a stall turn, then on the way down, do several rolls. Sounds like all I have to do to be a deliberate flat spin is to just add a few more inputs as I am headed down and.. .voila.. flat spin.

Mike.. given the two, the most likely IS the excelleron 90. It has pull-pull everything back there and seems more responsive to inputs than the Venus II is, although I love flying the Venus II. I think I need to work on my dual rates, as I've said earlier... put more authority in that high rate.. as you said, Mike, insane setting.. [sm=bananahead.gif] And, since I've not finished the Super Star, now is the time to set it up for those types of maneuvers.

CGr.

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

A blender is nothing more than a plane spinning in a short dive (aileron only) and transitioning into a flat spin (adding rudder and elevator while taking aileron out).

BTW: Notice the large amount of elevator throw (and rudder) in the first video above? Look at the elevator in my attached photo.



Steve

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

Here's everything you want to know about aerobatics. Great thread with video of the model and an overlay of the TX showing stick inputs.

Check out clinic #2 for Knife Edge Spins and Blenders.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=904349

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

Ichanged clubs and went from a sport/pattern club to <strike>an older</strike> one with members who have seen more flying summersand whose focus is scale &amp; giant scale. Iwas horsing around with a SK50 at the time and put it into a spin. Behind me Iheard "He's in trouble now" and "Oh oh" sort of remarks. You just don't see the WWI and WWII warbirdguys throwing down into a spin, flat spin or blenderon purpose.


I've gotta admit - Idon't do blenders often because that "snap" from descending roll to spin just looks hard on an airframe. But then Idon't snap roll much, either.

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

It looks hard on an airfram but it isn't really that hard on a planewith light wing loading. On a scale warbird it may be murder though...

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

I'll throw down a flat spin to blender with my Parkzone P51 BL regularly. One time the canopy popped off while doing so. It was lots of fun. There's another guy at the club with some german warbirds and we'll dogfight. I'll occasionally put it into a flat spin as if he shot me down.

Lots of people at my club don't seem interested in aerobatics. I'll admit I enjoy doing low passes in a pattern from time to time with my P51, but I generally prefer to fly aerobatics. When I fly, I have a purpose and am practicing maneuvers, such as rolling circles, hover, etc instead of just tearing holes in the sky. I just enjoy aerobatics more than scale flight and I find it much more challenging. I also think I'm a better pilot because of it. When the wind gets above 15mph, usually i'm the only one still out there with my Stik.

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

Usually, the very first thing I do at the field is fly ovals and figure eights for a few minutes, then I develop the nerve to do a few touch and go's. The reason is to let the butterflys settle down before I do anything that I might really screw up on. Can't hurt much with ovals and figure 8's, I say.

Then on the second tank of fuel, I begin to get brave and start to do really awful stuff like an aileron roll or maybe a really difficult loop.

I really start to whoop it up on the third tank, though.. that's when I do a stall turn and begin to do other stuff like the half cuban 8, or a square loop.. that's when it's time to start to practice the beginning of a whole new era in my RC flying.. I can put to practice what I've learned here today... the Flat Spin!!!

Whoo hoo!!! here we go!!!! :D

CGr

RE: Aerobatic maneuvers
 

:D:D:D

I believe that the FSOne simulator has a tutorial on flat spins.