Plane engine questions
 

I'm going to be getting into planes in the next year or so, and I'm going straight to nitro. I have several years of experience with cars and know how the engines work, and how to make them work, so I already have somewhat of an idea what's going on. What I want to know is: What odd quirks do plane engines have that car engines don't? Will it cause any sort of significant power loss if I run an air filter? Are they easier or harder to tune? Any reason why I can't use a valve on the fuel line to shut it off as opposed to closing the carb? What brands besides OS are taken to be of equal reliability? Anything else I forgot to mention but need to know?

For reference I'm asking about a two stroke roundabout 0.45CI, and assume they're quality ones. Most likely an OS, since my experience with their car engines has told me they're excellent, but I could end up with another one if the quality is equal. I'll probably be able to figure out on my own four strokes and larger engines as I get bigger planes later on down the road but the trainer I have my eye on asks for a .45ci two stroke.

RE: Plane engine questions
 

They spend most of their useful life several hundred feet above the ground.

Depends on the engine, but probably not.

No.

You might be expecting slightly different performance ranges from them, but the tuning principles are largely the same.

Well, it CAN be difficult to reach them in their natural state several hundred feet above the ground. Other than that, however, no, there's no reason it CAN'T be done.

SHOULD it? Wellllll, many of us tend to have this funny quirk about not liking our hands to be anywhere NEAR the 7,000 RPM ginsu knives frequently found near airplane engines, so we tend to avoid the practice...but to each his own.


I'm not touching THAT issue.

Isn't there always?

Just try to keep in mind that as similar as they are *they are, after all, all glow-fuel powered engines) you'll find enough differences in their normal operating range, sizes, tips, tricks, brands, mountings, and jobs so as to make them a new experience. Be willing to learn, and you'll be fine.

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For reference I'm asking about a two stroke roundabout 0.45CI, and assume they're quality ones. Most likely an OS, since my experience with their car engines has told me they're excellent, but I could end up with another one if the quality is equal. I'll probably be able to figure out on my own four strokes and larger engines as I get bigger planes later on down the road but the trainer I have my eye on asks for a .45ci two stroke.
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Many a trainer has been flown on an OS .40 or .46 sized engine. While there are certainly other choices you can make, few would fault you for selecting such a combo.

Please do, however, bear in mind that someone WILL fault you. This is, after all, the internet. :)

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Welcome to the nuttier side of the house, and good luck. :)
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RE: Plane engine questions
 

Oh wow...didn't notice until after I posted that you're in Lebanon.<div>
</div><div>By all means, any time you'd like to make your way down south a bit, you're welcome to come fly with us in Murfreesboro any time.  Only 95% or so of us are as smart-***ed as I am. :)</div><div>
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RE: Plane engine questions
 

airplanes engine don't spend their operating times at full throttle......glow plugs last a long long time compaired to trucks......no need to run an air filter, we don't fly in dirt.....
driving a truck is not flying an airplane.....get an instructor
Good Luck

RE: Plane engine questions
 

Good to know. I plan on using one because the place I'm going to fly from once I'm good enough to fly on my own without crashing isn't very clean at all. The air filter on my TC3 is dirty within five minutes, and the same chunk of pavement I drive that on is also my taxiway.

Or at least will be.

Ahh, so I should be able to fire and go using the knowledge from my cars then. Sweet

I meant something like this on a fifth radio channel. Flip a switch on the transmitter and the fuel flow is cut, flip it the other way and full flow is available to the carb.

The reason I ask is that I would use the throttle stop screw to set the idle speed, if the engine has one anyways, just like I do with my cars. I'd still need a way to kill the engine though. I'm also used to running them out of fuel, as that's how I shut the cars off. So if I can get away with using that valve I'd be a happy modeller.


lol. I know OS is good. I see a lot of guys running Saitos and Thunder Tigers. Beyond that? No idea what's good and what's a paperweight.

I took to the cars pretty easily so I should be able to learn plane engines pretty quickly. Seems to me that they're similar enough where I should be able to figure it out on my own and have the engine broken in and tuned before the plane sees flight.


haha. The specific trainer I'm looking at is the Hobbico NexSTAR. There's two versions, an ARF that doesn't include an engine or electronics, and an RTF that has the whole nine yards. I'm just not sold on the bushed ABN engine in the RTF. Call me spoiled by the standard dual BB ABC engines used in cars if you want, but I'm just not sold on them. If I'm going to buy an engine I might as well get the ARF and buy my own radio too. But the RTF comes with a simulator...decisions decisions...but that's for another thread I guess, when I actually have cash in hand.






Well once I'm competent enough to fly on my own without stuffing it into things I'll be flying out of my own yard and driveway. My driveway gets a ton of dust and debris kicked up onto it from all the cars and trucks. For reference I can't drive my cars for more than five minutes without their filters changing color, and that same chunk of driveway is also my taxiway. The street outside my house is laser straight and smooth enough to serve as a runway.

Well damn. I'm using a three year old OS 8 in my NTC3 right now and that runs beautifully. I probably won't have to touch the plug for several gallons in a plane.

I planned on it. I could probably pick it up on my own but I'd rather not chance a crash if I can avoid it entirely. It's no problem if I crash my NTC3. Usually it's not even broken, flip it and go, and this has been the case so far. Even if it does break control arms are cheap, plentiful and easy to replace.

Crash the trainer? It's a pile of scrap wood. It'd be months before I got around to getting it reassembled, and it'd probably never fly the same again. So I figured on getting someone to learn me how to fly it properly before I try to buzz the neighbor's cattle.
Haha I plan on heading down there to learn how to fly it in the first place. Gas might cost me a bit much to fly there every time though, I only get 15MPG and I'm out by the Smith County line.

I might head down there anyways just to check things out, mingle, chat and observe.

RE: Plane engine questions
 

just remember...hopefully, you'll spend about 5 seconds there. Seriously...you certainly CAN run an air filter, but very very few do, and there's almost NEVER a need for one.

We fly at a LANDFILL for crying out loud, and don't run air filters. *heh*

More or less, yeah. i mean..glow engines are glow engines. Needles will react more or less the same. Can't remember if most car engines have 'low end" needles or not..memory says most don't...so that might be new.

Basically, though, yeah..leaner is leaner, richer is richer, with the same sorts of impacts on performance, condition, longevity, etc.

Eh...sure, you can. but why add the weight?

We don't deal (usually) with spring loaded carbs in the airplane world. The sero positions the carb where we want it, and it stays there till we move the left stick. heck, LOTS of guys simply chuck the "throttle stop screw"..it's pointless. Program the radio for idle to be where you want idle to be. Trim (or a throttle close button...some radios have such a feature) will then run the throttle closed to kill the engine.

So...again..why spend extra money to complicate the mechanics and add extra weight to the airplane all to achieve something that's easily done in a simpler fashion with less parts to fail :)


Ya know what? if you trust OS, are comfortable with them, and have found them to be reliable, then go with an OS. They're hugely popular for a reason, LOTS of guys fly them, you'll find tons of help and advice (some of it may actually even be useful) and things will work just fine. Don't beg for trouble where there is none. :)

Eh...all I'll say is overconfidence has killed a BUNCH of airplanes. :)

I mean, sure..you probably CAN do those things...and again, lots of guys do it that way. Lots of other folks break the engines in IN FLIGHT...and have pretty solid reasons for it. :)

So...all I'm saying is don't decide "Oh..I've done cars, so this'll be easy, I'll do this and be fine!" without at least giving your eyes and ears a CHANCE to be exposed to folks with a few years more airplane experience. ;)

The NexStar has taught a BUNCH of people to fly, some of them were even my former students, and have lived to tell the tale. *lol* A fine choice for a trainer, either selection will do what you need, imo


Tell ya what.

I got an electric powered Tower 60 trainer (That's my son holding it in my avatar, after HIS first flight on it), a couple of Spektrum radios, and a buddy cord hanging in the trailer ALL the time. You drop me a PM when you want to go fly, and we'll make it happen. :)



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RE: Plane engine questions
 

I guess I'm just paranoid about it. Running a car without an air filter is a very expensive mistake that I hope to never make.

I might fit one while I break in and tune the engine on the ground but remove it before flying.

I doubt the extra weight will affect much. I don't need precision aerobatics or anything, I just need something that's stable, easy to fly and convenient. A micro servo and a valve won't affect it.

Cars use the midrange far more than planes do IMO. They're also always accelerating through it, and we do a lot of idling. A low end needle has been standard issue for years, and the few really crummy car engines made without one tend to make absolutely no power and won't idle for crap.


I'll be one of those guys once I'm experienced enough. I break my car engines in by driving them around.

That's the thing. I may not be worried about the tuning but I will be learning the flight part of this properly. I don't have enough money to go it alone.
Good to know. I'll probably go for the ARF since, even with an engine and 5ch radio it's less than the RTF.

I might just take you up on that. If you see and hear a beat-to-hell 80's Ford pickup rumble up it's probably me :p


On observation I'm glad plane guys are so helpful. If ya'll were anything like many car guys the ART/RTF companies would be 100% recession proof.-

RE: Plane engine questions
 

Don't bother with an airfilter, you don't need it.

You set the idle stop so that the carb is all the way closed and use the throttle trim to adjust your idle, then a throttle cut on your transmitter will pull the carb closed and shut off the motor.

RE: Plane engine questions
 

*heh*

Lesson 1 about airplanes.

It's ALWAYS all about weight. :)

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RE: Plane engine questions
 

Yes, an air field can be dirty. I don't use filters but when I flew at a field surrounded by farms I did. If you hit the weeds/crops without one your carb was stuffed with seeds of many types. At one point my local field was just a weed patch we mowed, filters were mandatory. It's a choice thing and most engines don't know there is a filter over the carb, a few will. Flying at an old crop duster field with the asphalt breaking up never presented a problem and now flying off of dry lake beds doesn't seem to be a problem either. If you want a filter then by all means use them. It's your plane and engine, if it makes you feel good do it.
I'm also not a weight watcher but I don't add weight to a plane for no reason and there is no reason for a shut off, that's what the carb does.

RE: Plane engine questions
 

Most of the better radios have a kill switch for the engine. You set the idle using your throttle trim, then set the kill switch up to close the barrel all the way. Since you are doing the smart thing and getting some training, speak with your trainer before you buy your radio gear. If the club already has a buddy box and cable to use you can save some dollars by buying a transmitter that is compatible with it. Otherwise you will have to buy your own buddy box which adds another $40 or so to your investment.

RE: Plane engine questions
 

Been there, seen that, grieved over the lost airframe, helped to pick up the scattered debris.... :D

RE: Plane engine questions
 

If you don't get a radio with a throttle kill switch, you can still do like I do:

When you set the throttle servo, make it so that left stick all the way down and trim all the way down has the carb closed. Then with the trim all the way up you should have a good idle. Fly with the throttle trim all the way up. After landing just pull the throttle trim all the way down. If the left stick is all the way down this should kill the engine. Test this as part of your preflight testing.

Good idea getting an instructor! They should show you how to make sure the engine isn't too lean on nose up. Just remember airplane engines run at all kinds of angles that car engines don't (or don't for extended periods). I am talking about nose up, nose down, sideways (knife edge) and upside down (inverted flight). Heck, some of my engines are mounted inverted or sideways!

RE: Plane engine questions
 

i guess ill touch the engine subject
for the most part you will be able to get every engine that is on the main market today to run and run rather well
this includes, os, supertiger, gms, magnum, tt, asp, ect
os engines break in the fastest for the most part, they run well after the first few tanks, take a few gallons to totally break in though
supertiger, some people have problems with them, i have a gs-51 and its one of the best running engines in my fleet and i maybe have a gallon (if that) through it, idles great and transitions amazingly well
gms, tower stopped making them??? but the few i have are also very good engines....the 47 i have will idle at close to 1000 rpm on 0% nitro
magnum engines, i have 5+ magnums, the 52 is a beast of an engine hard to tune/breakin but once it has a few gallons through it it runs very well, the 46's are also decent engines, virturally the same as the os.46 engines just takes alittle longer to breakin
tt i dont have any but ive tuned quite a few and they are good engines
asp is the same as magum (just a different brand name)

for the most part no matter what engine you get it will do the job, some will only buy one brand or the other, ive tried most of them and havnt had a problem with a single engine, some are more picky than others (mag .52 for example ) but once they are tuned properly and broken in all of them work great.
power wise the .46/.47 engines are about the same
the gs-51 (supertiger) ax55 and magnum .52 are about the same but the mag has alittle more power than the ax and the ax alittle more than the gs-51 but they are so close i wouldnt worry about either


if you are really looking to get something for cheap, hobbypeople.net has a sale around christmas time (cant remember if its before or after) and magnum .46's are on sale for 50 bucks, just pick one up and have at it.

RE: Plane engine questions
 

You pretty much described the area around my house. When I'm competent enough to fly on my own I will fly from my own driveway, mainly because it will cost me 20 bucks in gas alone to head down to the nearest flying field. There's cow pastures on all sides of my land, and only about 3/4 of my 2.3 acres is mowed. The rest is quite overgrown.



I'll check 'em out. I'm seriously considering grabbing the plane now and getting bits and pieces over time to complete it. It certainly would look awesome hanging from my ceiling while I buy the bits it needs. I was going to get a 4YF 2.4ghz to use on my cars, but my 2ch AM system does seem to work just fine. I suppose I can get used to using a pistol grip. Or maybe buy another 2DR on AM 27 if I absolutely must have a stick radio.

As for cheap...well when it comes to engines I'm not one to cheap out. I will gladly spend more for a quality engine. But if I can score a brand new, high quality engine for 50 smackers then I certainly will. I may like my OS but I'm not brand loyal.

Oh, and on thunder tiger: Associated outsources their engines to Thunder Tiger. I've never heard mass reports of guys with AE nitros complaining that their engines throw rods during breakin or won't hold a tune. I even had one that had been quite severely overheated in a previous life, yet still ran for a few seconds at a time. So I assume they're pretty good based on that.

RE: Plane engine questions
 

This plane is 3 payments of $126. I comes built and ready to fly with a 6 ch computer radio. All you need is a prop, glow starter, fuel and hand crank fuel pump and your in the air. I flys GREAT! OS engine and Futaba radio gear. Great way to start. Just get help at first till your ready to fly it by your self.

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...I=LXGHD4**&P=0


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDOUcKkc89Q[/youtube]

RE: Plane engine questions
 

Payments? On a toy airplane? Seriously?

Wow...just...wow.
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RE: Plane engine questions
 

My thoughts exactly. I'll just snag the NexSTAR ARF for 104.99 and a 2DR on AM 27 for my NTC3. Then later on I'll buy an engine, then after that the radio. Not a big deal.

RE: Plane engine questions
 

NO NO NO... you cannot use a car radio on an aircraft. First of all, you do NOT want to be on a car frequency... someone would certainly shoot you down on that. Next, it is not authorized for air use (FCC, AMA). And, third, that pistol grip control is not what you want to use with model aircraft flying. You will need more than two channels.

The 4YF is just fine, but I would move up to something that has more than four channels and there are many out there that are reasonably priced. For example, I have a Spektrum DX6i which is a 2.4 GHz radio with six channels and multiple model memory with may aux channel options for future use. You will need four basic channels for the Nexstar.. throttle, elevator, aileron, and rudder. I just chose the Spektrum because I have and use that radio. I won't get in the radio wars over radio selection, but the big four are Airtronics, Spektrum/JR, Futaba, and Hitec. You just can't go wrong with any of those, but do NOT use that car radio on your plane.

Servos.. well, they are cheap enough.. for instance, Airtronics and Futaba basic servo sells for, I believe, around 10 bucks each. (that may be bushing bearing servos, but it doesn't matter for the application..you can move up to a more capable servo as your needs require).

Most radio systems come with one receiver.

CGr.

RE: Plane engine questions
 

Sigh...


Re-read the part I put in bold.

This is an NTC3. Mine, to be precise.

http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...C3-overall.jpg

That's what the 2DR is going into. Not the NexSTAR. It wouldn't have enough channels anyways, it's only a two channel.


Though the 2.4ghz 4YF can be used for both the NexSTAR and the NTC3. I pulled the manual up in PDF form, it states all you have to do to use it for surface vehicles is grab a spring to make the left stick return to center. I'd simply use the right stick for car throttle/brake and the left stick for car steering so I could retain the ratchet when I'm using it in the plane.


Oh, and I don't like pistol grips for cars. That's why I want to get a stick radio for that too. I'm just better on them.

RE: Plane engine questions
 

I'm building a carl goldberg eagle 2 kit but want to go electric motor.The world of electrics is new to me.I want something equivelent to a 40 gas.The instructions say to use .25 cobalt motor. I'ts an old kit and that motor is expensive and hard to find.Any help with motor selection would be helpful.

RE: Plane engine questions
 

I'd say just plonk an OS 25AX down in there and call it a day. No need to give up glow power because the engine the instructions call for isn't available anymore, and the 25AX will bolt right in. Far more power than they had back then too. Best part? No need to redo the entire front end to make it lipo compatible.

RE: Plane engine questions
 

Look at the motors at Horizon, some of them are marked as a 40 or 50 to help us wet engine people figure this out. When I have electric questions I go to wattflyer.com on the bottom of the header bar where it shows the threads or forums. It makes me crazy though and I have a couple of electric guru's I ask when I'm at the field. All they fly are electrics and they havemade pretty much every new person mistake known and are a bundle of information.
I also get with them when they are placing orders to places like Hobby King. I just got the word, the motors and ESCs I ordered are here and ready to be picked up.
Wonder what ever happened with 378 and if he ever learned tofly or not.
Posts like this have come up a lot over the years but then we hear nothing back from the person? I would bet he has given up on planes and stuck with his cars and trucks? Still, I do wonder about them.;)

RE: Plane engine questions
 

lololol I have the airplane hanging on my wall ready to go. I've even had it running, albiet just taxiing around in my driveway/tethered to a support beam for my carport. I just need someone who's guaranteed to be down at MPRCF with a buddy cord one saturday. The only reason I haven't just randomly popped down there on a whim is because it's a 100 mile round trip and I don't have access to anything more efficient than 17MPG.


I haven't given up on flying at all. Much to the contrary I have too much invested in it to not at least see it fly once. I just don't have the gas money to randomly pop down to the field.