RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Hi flycatch
Thanks for an excellent description of your landing method. About 6 months ago I designed and built a foam flying wing with electric drive and tricycle landing gear. A number of other members at our field had similar flying wings, but only my wing had landing gear. It weighs just over one pound so it reacts very different during the landing. If I cut the throttle it practically stops since it has little inertia and the air is just as heavy as with larger planes, so I come in with a little more throttle than"normal". Since the plane has no rudders I can only do loops and rolls. So I do many landings. Maybe 5-10 on every flight. I have never flown it inverted because it "feels" unstable. I'm certain it can do it but I don't want the stress of doing it. Maybe one day, real high. Or not.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

'the wind got me' is an universal excuse for a messed up landing. We all make mistakes and it's sometimes easier to blame something else for it.
But when the wind is gusty, the best pilot can crash his plan, especially with a crosswind. If you are slow, your ailerons are less effective, it can flip you right over.
The mistake many pilots make is to stand too close to the runway and look head on to their planes. It makes it easier to control the direction, but the speed can not be seen from that angle of view.
So what I see myself and other doing is to get too slow and stall a few feet above the runway. The right elevator input is the key to a successful landing. The throttle shut be at idle before hitting ground effect.
It all take practice and we are all constantly learning...

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Good Landing: When the model is about 3 feet off the grass or runway, FOCUS your Eyes on THE MAIN GEAR Wheels and start feeding in more and more elevator.

If you are looking at the TOTAL AIRPLANE, you will hit the ground much harder on a tail dragger and hopefully bounce back into the air. On a Tri-Gear model, you will hit on the nose gear, bending the gear and breaking the prop.

Try it.

Ken

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Now that many of us are thinking about the landing problem I would like to share an interesting experience. About 10 years ago I decided to design and build a Flying Lawnmower. Others had already done that and there were a few balsa kits available. I had already scratched off building a balsa kit after seeing a balsa Flying Lawnmower making a poor landing. It was totaled. After I discovered building planes from Coroplast corrugated plastic material, that others had pioneered, known as SPADS, I realized that a Flying Lawnmower using Coroplast was very possible. When I was doing the maiden flight, during the first landing, I got that sickening feeling just before touchdown, that the plane was going to be totaled. It appeared to be falling terrible fast. I merely held on and the landing ended up being as smooth as silk. I did a few more landings and had that dreaded feeling one or two more times, but soon it disappeared. Over the next few days I kept wondering why I had that feeling of doom during the landing. On my next day of flying I made a few flights but the dreaded doom did not appear again during the landing. Then I talked my flying buddy into taking it up. He discovered that same dreaded doom during the first few landings also. After a lot of thought I decided that the dreaded doom was some type of optical illusion resulting from the fact that the Flying Lawnmower does not have wings, it is a lifting body, and that this missing item was causing our brain to decide there was something wrong. Apparently during the landing we receive information from the AOA of the wings to judge the landing.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

For a newbie like myself this is all good stuff. At the moment, landing is my favourite part of the flight, so I'm forever doing touch-and-gos in an effort to improve. I don't believe that practice will make perfect - at least not always perfect - but Ido grease a landing now and then, and it's happening more and more often.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Someone mentioned dead stick landing, it does seem that I have more focused attention when doing a dead stick. I usually do well with them, but I shoot lots of touch and goes when I get the chance to fly. Like someone else says, "the landing is never optional".

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

One way to help determine air speed when landing is to pay attention to your SINK RATE. Assuming the plane is more or less level it will SINK faster the slower it is going (in relation to the wind it is in). A short blip of throttle will move it forward and slow the sink rate.
I teach newbies to make long slow centerline passes and slow em down a bit each pass. Start 15 feet high work down to one. have 'em cut the throttle and OPPS they landed :-)

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

I know that there are many here who do not agree with my first statement. Go ahead, read it again. To those I ask: If you fly from a defined runway, like a grass field that is frequently mowed, have you ever landed short, in the tall grass, when it was your intend to land on the cut grass runway? Ever wonder why that happened? I saw a large plane do that at our field just a few days ago. Our 150 yard long runway, by 75 yard wide runway was right there, yet the experienced RC pilot landed short, right into the tall grass. He missed the WHOLE runway. I have done the same thing many times. He thought he was over the field. I was watching this plane land, and I too thought it was going to be a good landing. Why was the pilot wrong? Why was I wrong? Come up with an answer that you believe is reasonable and explains what happened. Go ahead, you explain it! It is my opinion that when the plane is far away from you, you have no idea where it is located, relative to a fixed object, such as the beginning of the runway. You have to learn to compensate for this human inability to determine the location of our RC plane relative to another object at a "far" distance. I do it by coming in for a landing "relatively high" at the end of the runway, and then aiming to touch down near to "directly in front of me". I look forward to any comments on this.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Villa,
HI, Yep I agree. I have landed short some, hit the fence a time or two, and the tree atthe north end of our field....[:@]
I bet you use your throttle to control your altitude to get to your target touchdown spot[8D].

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Glider pilots use a method that Dave Thornberg refers to as the "magic window" . This is a spot you need to fly through before the final turn to the runway that lines up the approach. This is often the same area (distance out ,altitude) an instructor will have the student chop the throttle to make a landing.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Hi OzMo
Yes, I use the throttle threw-out the landing approach. Also the elevator. Opposite to what a novice might think, up elevator at low throttle is used to lose altitude and thus shorten the touchdown.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Yep and as said before PRACTICE. It is amazing how every plane is a bit different in how it handles at low speeds, even in two of the same make. Washout on trianers helps here.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

This subject has been covered a number of times and each time it seems there is more good information to obtain. If only one thing could be emphasized to PRACTICE is APPROACH. I struggled early on with landings, so I started trying to figure out my dilemma and realized it was my approaches.

I watched other pilots and noticed the ones that struggled landing and even crashed more than others had erratic approaches when they come in for landing. I started praticing approaches over and over and over from both sides of the fields and this made ALL the difference for me. I found improvements all the way around and once I started getting my approaches consistant I then could focus on other areas of landing such as, rudder control, elevator, throttle management, etc.

One of the things I noticed in the AMA rules for instructors was being able to land within two wingspans of the centerline of the runway. I found that some of the best pilots would struggle with this one especially in windy conditions ;)

Good flying (and landing) :D

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Our eyes are separated by 3"; hence, any triangulation at distance is impossible.

One thing that I have learned is that during approach, the shape of the plane in the sky is not to move too much respect to clouds and trees, since it should be descending towards me in a straight and inclined line.

During the high and far stage of the approach, my brain is judging distance and altitude by the size of that approaching shape, which is in my memory from previous landings of that specific plane.

The last stage is the tricky one, because the top of the trees are closer and the shape starts moving towards a point in front of my location.
However, two new things are helpful: the shade of the plane, and the lateral view of the fuselage.

There is a fence on the East end of our runway that caught many planes during final approach.
We made a scale shape in plywood of a standing man and placed against the fence.
After that, no more planes have crashed there.

I believe that the shape has been a great reference for the pilots for mentally comparing the size of the approaching plane respect to the man's shape.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

My landings for the most part are perfect, that is when my approach is good. When the approach is off, that's when I wind up landing on the nose wheel.  So as others have said, it isnt the actual landing, its the approach that is the most difficult, something I am still learning. Judging the distance and direction the plane is traveling is the hardest thing I am learning.

The thing I need to work on is figure out why my plane veers left, it seems every time I have it lined up it drifts left, and then I overreact last minute to compensate.  Although it seems when it is windy I do better at landing. Figure that one out.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

acdii:

As I said before, When the model is about 3 feet off the grass or runway, FOCUS your Eyes on THE MAIN GEAR Wheels (REAR WHEELS) and start feeding in more and more elevator. As the model settles in on the MAIN Gear with the nose high, ease off the Elevator.

On a Tri-Gear model:: If you are looking at the TOTAL AIRPLANE, you will hit on the nose gear, bending the gear and breaking the prop.

Ken AMA 1528 since 1948

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Ever watch a pro golfer put a 5 iron shot on the green at 200 yards, or aquarterback drop a ball into a running receiver's arms at 60 yards? Or an R/C pylon race?

Some depth perception is possible and regularly achieved - with practice.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Or Evan Longoria hitting a game winning single in the 11th inning? [X(] :D GO RAYS!!

http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/mlb/gam...078887&c_id=tb

Sorry Boston fans..

CGr.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Off-topic update...

Sorry, I had to add this.

CGr.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Ok.. Back on topic. ;)

One thing that I always tell new folks, something that my instructor taught me when I was having some problems coming in for a landing. I seemed to keep coming in to far away from me, away from the runway centerline. It seems a natural thing to do.. don't want to get hit by the plane, now do we.

Well, the plane is usually further away than we realize but being new, the tendency is to fly it away from us. In fact, my second plane, my Tiger 60, took quite a beating when I kept landing it on or next to the berm at the opposite side of the runway from me. Since our main field is a full-scale runway, there is a bit of a down slope on each side of the runway to let water run into a ditch, more so on the opposite side of our pilot stands. I put it in that darned ditch several times causing me some problems with the nosegear.

He was watching me one day and told me "Just fly it straight towards you on final. Watch it closely, and adjust your throttle as necessary to get it to come in on a nice glide slope. Don't worry about it hitting you, it won't".

So, I tried it and it worked. My landings started to be right on the runway centerline and, right in front of me. So, aside from all the other stuff we learn, keeping things basic during our finals is something worth focusing on to get it right, and again, practice practice practice.

CGr.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Throttle is altitude. Elevator is speed. With this simplistic set of explanations everything else should make sense.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

I'm going to try that tomorrow. When I can place the plane on the runway the landings are great, when Ihave to fixate on trying to keep it on the runway, thats when Iwind up dumping it. Too hard to concentrate on it AOA when you are busy trying to line it up.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Actually, throttle is distance. If you want to extend your landing approach, tap in a few clicks of throttle. Nurse it down with taps of elevator to get the nose up a tad bit to slow things down a bit. But, as once told, don't get the nose up high enough so you can see the bottom of the aircraft.

CGr.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Line the model up on your SHOULDER, keep it there until it is about one hundred (100) feet from the end of your runway. Because of YOUR shoulder alignment of the aircraft, on a model runway or full scale runway, you will be able to touch down about 25 feet out in FRONT of you.

Try It !

Ken

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

On a high wing trainer look for the horiz stab to be between the wing and the wheels, after the last turn when the plane is pointed at you.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Maybe think about it like this. If a model is at 50% throttle and pulls into an up line and stops, still at 50% throttle, the elevator stopped the relative forward motion / change in speed and distance. Not the throttle. If that same model then noses over into a down line still at half throttle the elevator or rudder allowed the change in speed and subsequently distance. Anyone remember that pesky distance = speed x time equation.
The throttles primary function is altitude. Speed is secondary.
The elevators primary function is speed. Altitude is secondary.
The ailerons primary function is roll. Yaw is secondary.
For rudder yaw is primary and roll secondary.

Cheers.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

And landing gear is only good if you keep the plane right side up!:)

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Thanks but distance IS just 'horizontal' altitude. You are trading the effects of gravity with throttle. Flying horizontally is just staying in altitude relevant equilibrium. You say banana I say banana! Cheers!

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Trees and Soybeans do not a good runway make.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

And concentration, yesterday I went flying after a week of not flying. My Saito was acting up. So I spend 40-45 mins trying to tune it.
Finally I was airborne. Flew 3 times and a thunder storm started so I waited it out. After 20 misn it was gone so I flew again.
Only after I was up I realized that though the storm went they were still high winds:(.
I lined up for landing in the same way as the previous flights(with barely no winds) but now the winds were ~20 mph cross in my face. The plane ended in the grass in front of me, I stripped the main.
CONCENTRATION, never be so hurry to take off that you dont look at the wind sock. The wind can change direction or speed in 1 minute

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

That is so true. Yesterday I put my plane up that Ihad slammed into a barn 2 weeks ago to see if it was going to fly ok, and in my impateince to wait until the wind died down, first put it into the soybeans, lightly though, it was being pushed by the crosswind, and just missed the runway. After Imade a couple link adjustments, tried it again, and totally forgot how this lightweight plane likes to turn into the wind at slow sppeds and flew it right over me into the tree behind me on takeoff. No matter what I tried, since the tail fin was not 100% Ihad very little control over it, winds were too strong. After the winds died down, I flew my other plane which is still in perfect shape and was able to concentrate on flying and not the wind.

Iguess I should spend the $20 and get the parts for my one plane.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

hi
my 14 year old learn from my freind how to fly and landed ,look at the teachers face at the end of the video hes looks very happy ,like a proud teacher,
he show him thorrle control and rudder too, it all help him in all flying kid now flys better then me[X(],lol



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVSEkb695BU

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Nooooo That should be GOOOOO OOOOOO'S!!!!

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

The Rays beat Texas last night in 11 innings. :D The Yanks beat the O's, I'm sorry to say. [:o]

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

The best advise is practice. After the first 10,000 touch and go landings, the next 20,000 or so were because I enjoy the process. On days with zero wind with no other airplanes in the air, I like to do to stall turns at each end of the runway with a touch and go in the middle. Easy to do 6 to 8 landings a minute doing this, but the pucker factor can be very high. Done right, and you are on the verge of a stall as you pull out of the dive and flair for the landing, and the stall turn is done low enough ( 50-75 feet) so you don't pick up too much speed to land. Of course, you have to have a plane that you know quite well.

The second thing necessary for great landings is an airplane that is properly set up in terms of balance and decalage, including engine thrust. Nose heavy airplanes arrive at the ground, where a balanced airplane is able to flair gently. Not having the engine thrust line correct makes it difficult to smoothly add or subtract power to extend an approach. Making repeatable landings has a lot to do with minimizing the pilot's workload, and it all depends on how well you have trammed the airplane.

Learn how to fly on the "backside of the curve". Google the term if you have never heard of it. The reason I mention it is that airplanes have a speed and power curve that results in level flight. At the bottom of the curve is the minimum power that an airplane can maintain level flight. Normally people land at a power and speed to the right side of this point. So if you add power, you speed up and climb, or if you add more elevator, you also climb. Where people get in trouble is that sometimes they enter the left side of the curve, the so-call backside of the curve. Over there, the airplane starts acting strange. Up elevator causes the airplane to loose altitude and you are very close to a stall. You can not flair from the backside with the elevator, and if you have used up all your altitude before getting out of this condition there is only one option that will prevent a crash landing and that is adding power and decreasing the elevator. If you enter this condition while dead stick, you have to release back pressure on the elevator while you have altitude and gain some airspeed.

So the backside of the curve is evil, right? Well it does have it's place in energy management during a dead stick landing. If you are high over the field it's best to just circle around for a landing, with maybe a couple of "S" turns to burn off excess energy on the approach. But what if you are too low to complete a circle qne will go long? Slowing down to the back side will allow you to make a much steeper approach to the runway without picking up speed and is easier than doing a slide slip or forward slip. Just remember to release the elevator to pick up speed at the bottom so you can flair for the landing.

The final thing is to learn how to adjust for wind conditions. If flying on a gusty day, land with a bit faster airspeed. If you are deadstick, you glide a greater distance with a higher airspeed. If you are unsure of your fuel supply or engine reliability, fly upwind, stay up wind. Get downwind, and you may end up in a corn field instead of the airfield.

And practice. Both normal landing and dead stick.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

I am still in my early 2nd a/c (3rd actually - RIP 2nd) days. When I was flying my 2nd a/c which was a low wing trainer at a field with a very limited runway I had trouble as I was approaching too fast and had the pleasure of watching my flare use up all the available runway.<div>
</div><div>I was flying my circuits high because I just didn't trust the engine. At one point I had more deadstick landings on my plane than my glider and that takes some doing.</div><div>
</div><div>I slowed down, flying the approach at idle power, but then found that I was running out of energy in the flare and I made a lot of hard and bounced landings. That was when I started to learn to use just a little power into the flare. All of a sudden the plane greased nicely onto the ground.</div><div>
</div><div>Now I am flying at a larger field and with an OS 55AX engine on my a/c. The concern about the engine cutting out at any time and especially on a go-around is no longer preventing me from flying circuits at a better height. Approaching with power and just using a little blip power to arrest the descent instead of elevator is making all the difference. With the larger field I don't have to panic if I miss my touchdown point and with that comes the ability to get in more practice approaches.</div><div>
</div><div>This backs up what everyone has said. </div><div>
</div><div>Learn to use the power to fly a powered approach using the throttle to control descent, and flare, and not elevator and then just practice. Get out there at a time when there are not many others at the field and then you can just fly circuits and touch and goes for hours if necessary. Don't forget to fly the plane until it is static. I also find that rolling on the mains during the go around is a great practice for rudder control during the takeoff roll.</div><div>
</div><div>Just my 2c worth.</div>

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

This is how I land my Kadet. Makes it look really good too as it rolls out on the mains before ht tail touches down.  The 4*120 though, I have to work on getting the idle right on the DLE20, its too low and transitions on power up are slow, so I have to really stay ahead of the plane when landing so I dont stall it out.

RE: Making a Good Landing
 

Concur with all said here. Use the throttle and not the elevator for control. However your plane needs to be trimmed for level flight while up in the air at half throttle. Once properlly trimmed you should be able to use the throttle to control your alltitude when landing. If you use the elevator when landing (too much that is) the plane will almost always stall, primarily becuase you do not have enough speed to maintain altitude. Resulting of course in a crash. some of the lighter 3d planes will float right in, but even they will land super smooth with a touch and I mean just a touch or blip of throttle. When you U tube guys flying. listen to the throttle when that come in or when they are doing their tricks, throttle management is the key you just about all they do. Minn Flyer (God rest his soul) gave me the best advice I've ever got on landing. He told me to " learn to fly the plane 2 foot off the ground without landing using as much of the run way as you can" Once you can do that you can certainly land the plane.