flaperons and spolerones
 

hey everyone can any help me with flaperons and spolerones what are they how do they work how to set them up i know that they help slow the plane down for landings and that's what i need there is a creek and the end of the run way my buddy has all ready glide in to it but what else do u use them for but info will be great we are kinda new to flying thanks a lot

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

What radio do you have, and how many wing servos?

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

dx7s and two i got it set up just dont really understand witch one to use when and how much u know stuff like that

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

"What else do you use them for"

They are most useful for generating vastly increased sales of new replacement ARF's, RTF's etc. They are a big mistake during training or just learning. Every new flyer can,t wait to use them only to discover they usually materially shorten the life of their airplanes.

You would be better of to find an experienced mentor to help you and or find a runway without a creek at the end.

John

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

well john i really don't have that option so i got to learn it my self plus i thought that was what these web sites are for thanks

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

What John said is very valid and good information. Flaperons are a great way to set yourself up for a tipstall that will more than likely destroy the plane, and if not at least it will do damage to it. Too many people rush to want to use flaperons only to find that they can cause what I just said. A very common misconception is that flaps and flaperons will slow down your plane. This is not exactly true. What they do is allow the wing to still produce lift at a slower speed, meaning you can fly at a slower speed and still not stall. The problems with flaperons is that they change the characteristics of the end of the wing where the ailerons are and cause the tip of the wing to stop producing lift, which is called a tip stall (the tip of the wing is stalled and no longer producing lift). <div>
</div><div>As far as spoilerons, you absolutely want to avoid using these. The function of a spoileron is to cause the wing to completely stop producing lift. This will cause the plane to simply fall out of the sky. This is often used in gliders to get them stopped, but when they use them they are usually only inches above the ground. If you use them in an airplane on approach you may need a bag to bring your plane home in.<div>
</div><div> If you are having problems slowing down for a landing you need to work on your approach technique and not rely on something like flaperons. While using flaps will allow you to fly at a slower speed, you still need to adjust your approach so that you are slowing the plane down as you make your approach. This is really a common problem with new pilots in that they just don't do the approach properly so that they are slowing the plane down so that they can land the plane. You will need to work on your downwind leg and your final turns so that you are killing off airspeed so when you make your turn onto final you are slowing down enough to make your landing. You may have to adjust your approaches to the situation you have at your field. But if you work on it you'll find that you can land your plane with no problems.</div></div><div>
Hope this helps</div><div>
</div><div>Ken</div>

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

Kind of snotty for someone that's looking for help. ENJOY !!! RED

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

ya it was im sorry didn't mean it like that but what i meant is there are no instituters where we are that is the only place we can fly i am sorry for that i was just looking for i way to shorten up our landings so we dont go off the edge i watched some youtube videos on it and was just looking for more info

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

The trouble is the landing spot just may be far to small for whatever kind of airplanes you are flying and that's why finding a mentor just might be able to help. There is no way anyone on these forums would be able to tell you that your site is to small or not. This is a very common problem with those that try to teach themselves that is they will tend to pick sites that truly are to small for their airplanes and if that's the case then flaps will only make things worse.

Best use here would be to find your local club and connect with those folks where you truly can get help.

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

+1 on what Ken said, all good info especially getting your approach set up correctly. A good approach yields a good landing.

Practice your approaches a lot and watch your air speed as you are making your approach. As Ken said start slowing down on your cross leg , that will help you see what your speed is , then you can adjust ( fine tune ) on your final. When practicing , try to make a long approach if you can , that way you have plenty of time to adjust your speed. I find that if you SQUARE off your pattern instead of rounding it off , you have more time to adjust.

Now that we went through that~~ you need to practice practice Practice your approaches until you can make nice smooth passes straight down the runway, all the time adjusting your throttle to set up the proper speed for a nice smooth pass . After you get that straight , a nice smooth landing can follow right where you want it.

Apology noted and accepted . Thank You. Good Luck ENJOY !!! RED

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

Here are a list of all the clubs located within 25 miles of Pearland, Tx. I'm sure that you'll be able to find training at least one of them!!!

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4" align="Center" border="0" id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_dgClubs" style="font-size: small; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Verdana; width: 700px; border-collapse: collapse;"> <tbody> <tr style="color: rgb(40, 71, 117);"> </tr> <tr style="color: white; background-color: rgb(93, 123, 157); font-weight: bold;"> <td>Name</td> <td>Number</td> <td>Members</td> <td>Contact</td> <td>Info</td> <td>District</td> <td>*Intro Pilots</td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(247, 246, 243);"> <td>SOUTH HOUSTON AREA RADIO CONTROL SOCIETY
Flying Site Details
<span id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_dgClubs_ctl02_lblDis tance" style="color: blue; font-weight: bold;">0.00 miles</span></td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">3271</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">61</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">SIMON VAAMONDE
Email Contact</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">Phone: 832.794.0777
Visit Website</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">8</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">Yes</td> </tr> <tr style="color: rgb(40, 71, 117);"> <td>BAY PORT AERO CLUB
<span id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_dgClubs_ctl03_lblDis tance" style="color: blue; font-weight: bold;">12.42 miles</span></td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">806</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">25</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">GLENN KEELING
Email Contact</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">Phone: 713-473-5237
Visit Website</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">8</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;"></td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(247, 246, 243);"> <td>NEW BERLIN SKY RAIDERS
Flying Site Details
<span id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_dgClubs_ctl04_lblDis tance" style="color: blue; font-weight: bold;">13.66 miles</span></td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">5091</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">5</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">MARK VICENTO
Email Contact</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">Phone: 832.207.0429</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">8</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;"></td> </tr> <tr style="color: rgb(40, 71, 117);"> <td>GULF COAST RC CLUB
Flying Site Details
<span id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_dgClubs_ctl05_lblDis tance" style="color: blue; font-weight: bold;">14.61 miles</span></td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">611</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">30</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">JOHN KLING
Email Contact</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">Phone: 281-471-0996
Visit Website</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">8</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;"></td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(247, 246, 243);"> <td>TEXAS CITY RC CLUB
Flying Site Details
<span id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_dgClubs_ctl06_lblDis tance" style="color: blue; font-weight: bold;">14.98 miles</span></td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">1075</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">112</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">MICHAEL GRASSMUCK
Email Contact</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">Phone: 409-925-5134
Visit Website</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">8</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">Yes</td> </tr> <tr style="color: rgb(40, 71, 117);"> <td>FORT BEND RADIO CONTROL CLUB
Flying Site Details
<span id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_dgClubs_ctl07_lblDis tance" style="color: blue; font-weight: bold;">15.07 miles</span></td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">615</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">137</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">ROBERT LONGENECKER
Email Contact</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">Phone: 713-772-6224
Visit Website</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">8</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;"></td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(247, 246, 243);"> <td>ALVIN RC MODELERS ASSN
<span id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_dgClubs_ctl08_lblDis tance" style="color: blue; font-weight: bold;">15.13 miles</span></td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">1307</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">93</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">CONRAD BEHRENS
Email Contact</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">Phone: 281-481-1431
Visit Website</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">8</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;"></td> </tr> <tr style="color: rgb(40, 71, 117);"> <td>BAYOU CITY FLYERS
Flying Site Details
<span id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_dgClubs_ctl09_lblDis tance" style="color: blue; font-weight: bold;">16.58 miles</span></td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">901</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">125</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">CHARLES HARVEY
Email Contact</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">Phone: 281-392-2366
Visit Website</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">8</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;"></td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(247, 246, 243);"> <td>HOUSTON HAWKS RC SOARING CLUB
Flying Site Details
<span id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_dgClubs_ctl10_lblDis tance" style="color: blue; font-weight: bold;">16.84 miles</span></td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">1698</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">18</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">ALAN JONES
Email Contact</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">Phone: 281-239-3451
Visit Website</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">8</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">Yes</td> </tr> <tr style="color: rgb(40, 71, 117);"> <td>JOHNSON SPACE CENTER R/C CLUB
Flying Site Details
<span id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_dgClubs_ctl11_lblDis tance" style="color: blue; font-weight: bold;">17.64 miles</span></td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">617</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">74</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">DAVID HOFFMAN
Email Contact</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">Phone: 832 689-6201
Visit Website</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">8</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;"></td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(247, 246, 243);"> <td>BOMBER FIELD INC
Flying Site Details
<span id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_dgClubs_ctl12_lblDis tance" style="color: blue; font-weight: bold;">17.85 miles</span></td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">2307</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">37</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">BARRY RABORN
Email Contact</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">Phone: 713-663-6764
Visit Website</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">8</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;"></td> </tr> <tr style="color: rgb(40, 71, 117);"> <td>PROP NUTS RC CLUB
Flying Site Details
<span id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_dgClubs_ctl13_lblDis tance" style="color: blue; font-weight: bold;">21.09 miles</span></td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">1770</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">41</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">ALLAN SMITH
Email Contact</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">Phone: 281-328-5770
Visit Website</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">8</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;"></td> </tr> <tr style="background-color: rgb(247, 246, 243);"> <td>HOUSTON AREA MODEL COUNCIL INC
Flying Site Details
<span id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_dgClubs_ctl14_lblDis tance" style="color: blue; font-weight: bold;">21.36 miles</span></td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">856</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">6</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">BARRY RABORN
Email Contact</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">Phone: 713-663-6764</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">8</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;"></td> </tr> <tr style="color: rgb(40, 71, 117);"> <td>FORT BEND HELIS
Flying Site Details
<span id="ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_dgClubs_ctl15_lblDis tance" style="color: blue; font-weight: bold;">23.58 miles</span></td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">4979</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">24</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">LARRY COBB
Email Contact</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">Phone: 281.415.4283
Visit Website</td> <td style="white-space: nowrap;">8
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Hope this helps


Ken<br type="_moz" />

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

I have flaperons set up on one plane and they are slaved to the elevator. I have used them on fun fly planes but everything Ken and John said is correct. On calm days if I forget to turn them off and try to land my Hots, it will try to tip stall on me. I haven't had it get away from me but I have had some close calls and I'm not a new pilot. Find a club on Kens list and take a little trip. On a plane using strip ailerons it is better to add a servo and install true inboard flaps or use a low pitch three blade prop to slow the plane down a bit. Flaperons can be fun but wait until you are a very good pilot. Spoilerons I gave a try on one of my favorite planes and they scared the peewaddle out of me the first time I activated them. I no longer have them set up in that plane. They are great on a glider though.

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

Spoilerons are both or a pair of ailerons lifting. And flaperons are both or a pair of ailerons dropping.

Spolierons kill lift. Flaperons add lift. Both will also add drag - and a lot if deployed heavy. Strip flaperons can add poor stall characteristics as well. You snap into the groundnice and slow when it stalls and only damage a few wing panels.

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

I must second all the people saying flaperons are not a friend untill you have a lot of flight time. I have them on my pattern model and only use them to make landing consistant. They are very tame compared to flaps only a few degreees programmed in and a couple degrees of elevator programmed in to keep the nose up. I do this so my landings will conform to the criteria I am being judged at and Iam always carfull to carry some motor on the plane to keep it from dropping the wings. I have used flaps on several airplanes. They had gobs of throw in them and could slow the plane to a crawl. It really does sound like your flying site needs to be looked at as well as how you are flying. I have seen several new pilots flying around in small areas trying to dive in for a landing only to find out that they are now landing too hot (fast). Once they see how much easier a flatter approach is they learn to land better. In a small crowded area it may be impossible to get a flat enough approach.

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

A question about terminology: I've always used "spoilerons" for spoilers that can work independently (i.e. one wing at a time), as a substitute (or enhancement) for ailerons, as on the P-61. That kind of spoileron is used for roll control, not dumping lift. Here, people seem to be using it to refer to ailerons that can be set so both go up at the same time, letting the ailerons act as spoilers. Is there another term for this last thing, or are we stuck with using "spoileron" to mean two very different things?

(On the merits of the OP's question, I agree with everyone else: beginners have no business using either. The most common beginner landing mistake is coming in too high, then diving to get down to the field. To be sure, without more information we can only guess about what the problem is here.)

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

As always when you are talking a technical field, language becomes very fluid and is constantly changing. In the full scale world I believe the word spoilers was used in connection to systems such as the P-61 as well a virtually ever glider/sailplane still to this day but all of these typically were never mixed ailerons and spoilers. The were normally separate surfaces positioned near mid cord and they killed lift to provide increased rate of descent or used differentially to provide roll control. The P-61 not only had these for primary roll control but also small conventional ailerons to provide primarily some tactile pilot feedback on the controls, something pure differential spoilers were/are poor at.


Spoilerons is something that I cannot think of a single application in the full scale world but its early this morning;) and the pure use of mixed spoilers is OK but even the spoiler function is poor when used in this manner as there is excessive pitching when applied. This is something pure spoilers mounted near mid cord do not do. Those are a joy to use both in full scale and RC true spoilers do not effect any pitching at all.

John

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

The spoilerons on the p-61 weren't used to dump lift, they were used to induce roll. One spoileron would go up and the other would remain flush with the top of the wing. The P-61 also had very small ailerons, but the spoilerons were the primary roll control. Some modern planes use this arrangement too, and some of them have no ailerons at all, but I can't offhand recall particular planes (maybe MD-11?). In any event, this is very different from an arrangement in which both ailerons can be raised at the same time, which seems to be what people in this thread mean by spoilerons. It's also very different from ordinary spoilers, as on the gliders you mention, where both go up at the same time.

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

The spoilers on the F-14 Tomcat are used for roll control, at least at lower speeds, as no ailerons are fitted to the main wings. Still, I assume the primary roll control is provided by tailerons.

I have flaperons/spoilerons mixed into all my planes on my flight simulator and on my 48" Extreme Flight EXP. There's even a note about adding the mixes to a 3-pos. switch in the 48" EXP manual. These cases all refer to adding an extra dynamic to an already highly capable aircraft, not making adjustments for landing or poor landing approaches on poor landing surfaces.

I admit to landing with flaperons active, including using them to pull right out of a touch and go. They do drop your stall speed to absolutely nothing, but at the expense of virtually all your stability. At the point of stall, the plane behaves more like it's hovering, where prop wash and torque take over. Not exactly a winning configuration for newer pilots like myself to use for consistent landings.

<font size="4">Short Version:</font>

That said, I typically don't even bother with flaperons and spoilerons, though it's still setup in my Tx. it only adds to the pilot workload managing the 3-pos switch, adding the mixes to your pre-flight check, and the fact that they only add to the required skill set for a given aircraft (as opposed to doing anything to assist in learning new skills or becoming comfortable with your plane)

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

Read my post agine. That is exactly what I said and I was also indicating the use of mid cord spoilers to reduce lift. The whole point of my post which you seemed to have missed was to separate the quite major differences between mid cord spoilers and trailing edge spoilerons. Sorry for responding to your question.

John

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

Doesn't the Mitsubishi MU-2 "Rice Rocket" doesn't have normal ailerons - it uses full span faps and spoilerons for roll control?

As far as using flapperons, if it's a flat bottom airfoil on a trainer, I've used them will good success if the ailerons are dropped about 1/4". I've found they do help the overall flying characteristics of the trainers I've tested, but are not down enough to create a tip stall or induce a spin (I've intentionally tried to spin a couldn't induce anything more than a big spiral). They did make a slight difference in the stall characteristics (more benign), slowed the approach speed slightly and did decrease the landing roll by about 30' or so. Overall I thought the made the trainers more forgiving with slightly less speed but also need to be adjusted for each individual plane to find what is optimal. Spoilers and airbrakes are a different story and can get one into trouble really quickly. Graupner airbrakes could be a much better alternative to spiolers but they have to be built into the wing when the wing is being fabricated.

Hogflyer

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

I'm unclear on what I said that seems to have made you angry. I asked whether there is a term other than "spoilerons" for the kind of thing this thread seems to be about: ailerons that can both be raised at once. To me, "spoilerons" are something different: spoilers (mid span on some planes, near the tips on others) that are raised one at a time for roll control. Your reply said that the spoilers on the P-61 were like those on gliders, which isn't accurate. I guess that's what threw me off. Sorry if I misread your reply, but it really didn't try to answer my question.

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

Sure didn't take long to start confusing the new guy did it ? lol ENJOY !!! RED

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

I think the new guy got what he needs to know in posts 4 and 6.

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

Nope.  Those two posts described what effect they had/how they work.  Not what they were or how to set them up.  Original poster asked: "what are they how do they work how to set them up"  And without punctuation or capitalization!

RE: flaperons and spolerones
 

Ok guys, let's remember what forum we are in here. This is the Beginner's forum, it's not the forum for the discussion of aerodynamic principles. I understand that many of us have lots of knowledge of how flaps, spoilers, flaperons, and spoilerons work on many different full scale planes, but this simply isn't the place to discuss them, or even worse get into an argument about them. When we do that it has the effect of disillusioning the new person in this hobby that came in asking for advice. Let's try to remember that we are here to help the new people in this hobby and not turn them off of it. I encourage and welcome all discussion that is on the topic of the thread (use of these on a model plane), but let's make sure we keep it there. We have other forums on RCU that are better suited for discussing the effects of these things on full scale aircraft.<div>
</div><div>Thanks understanding guys. This is one of the best forums here on RCU and it's the members that come in here to help that makes it so great. And it's all the members that come here to help that make it so great. But like most airplane guys it's really easy to get caught up in a discussion and get a bit carried away as we discuss (no no no, I've never done anything like that. no siree Bob. Not me!!!! ;) :D   )</div><div>
</div><div>Ken</div>