difference in rudder steering and aileron steering
 

Im just getting into the hobby and I own the Firebird stratos. I have about 15 flights on it so far, each flight is about 10 minutes. I bought it from my friend who is an intermediate flyer. he says im flying pretty good, and hes urging me to fly one of his older models; the 1/12 combat corsair from GP. Since the stratos has no aileron, just rudder, that is what im used to, and I still haven't taken my training wheels off (I still have the trainer enabled). his corsair is only ailerons, and no rudder. He doesn't care if I crash it, which is what would probably happen, so before im tempted to give it a shot, i must ask the veterans about the main difference in aileron vs rudder, and would be truly wise to fly this beut and see her crash n burn??

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Rudder changes yaw, ailerons change roll (elevator changes pitch). You don't "steer" an airplane, you fly it.

Some airplanes will enter and exit a turn nicely on ailerons and elevator. However some planes MUST use rudder input to fly smoothly thru a corner, typically bigger airplanes will be this way. I am guessing this small arf will probably fly fine if it didn't have a working rudder built in.
I think what you will notice going from rudder to aileron is that it will be much more responsive, and you might even get introuble by rolling when you meant to turn.. Take it slow and have fun !

He Beav and welcome to the forum. Congratulations on your learning with and appropriate airplane (the stratos) . This Corsair unlike the stratos is intended for combat purposes and uses a three control system (elevator, aileron and throttle) and this airplane flys very well with this setup but is much faster and is going to be a handful. Its almost certain you will destroy it and I must ask where is the learning in that, your friend is wrong. By saying he does not care if you wreak it he is saying he does not care about you.

You would be far better off going to something that is full house (elevator, aileron, rudder and throttle) but still a trainer, something like a Sensai or an apprentice before taking on the high performance airplane.


John

Ditto to all of the above as flying and more than likely crashing your friend's model will go a far way in erasing a lot of the confidence flying your trainer has built up in you. Flying is just like learning to walk, it is done by taking small steps, one at a time.

I'm a firm believer in learning with all 4 channels. One of the hardest students I taught was a glider pilot that never had ailerons or throttle.
He had to un learn years of flying gliders to learn ailerons and throttle, throttle is a lot more than speed control.
Learn with all 4 channels

There are a bunch of misconceptions about model flying. If you have a 3-channel airplane that is rudder, elevator, and engine/motor, and the main control is on the right stick, so that you fly with left/right on the stick and forward/back on the stick, you will have the same actions if you had ailerons and elevators. The flyer on the ground moves the stick to one side or the other and observes that the airplane rolls into the turn. When the airplane is set up with rudder as the control, the wings are set up so that the dihedral causes the model to bank when rudder is used.

Now, if you have a 3-channel airplane with rudder, elevator, and engine/motor and you are using a transmitter that puts the rudder and throttle on the left stick, and you have elevator on the right stick, but no control on the left/right stick, then you have confusion, and the prospective model flyer will tend to fly a 4-control airplane with rudder and it will take time to learn to use ailerons.

For many years, there have been models advertised as "aileron trainers" that somehow gave the impression that it would be more difficult to learn to fly with ailerons and that some kind of different learning was needed. NOPE! It all depends upon the model. A properly-designed trainer can be rudder, elevator, engine/motor, or rudder, elevator, aileron, engine/motor and the student will learn to fly either one equally well. Ailerons are not necessarily more responsive than a rudder airplane, again, it depends upon their configuration and setup. A bit of a history lesson: In the early days of RC, when Rudder-only was a competition category, there were some airplanes that would flick into a very tight and fast roll with the application of rudder. They were very quick and sensitive and required a careful hand on the rudder control. I've seen some incredible aerobatics performed on a rudder-engine airplane in the hands of a skilled flyer. In other hands (like mine!), that quick-responding airplane would have quickly become a pile of sticks!

And the bottom line is:

The differance from the Stratos to the Combat Corsair is HUGE!

You will needlessly destroy that airplane if you go for it and that's a shame because of the effect it will have on you, possibly souring you on the hobby/sport for good.

Google the Sensai at Tower as a full house electric trainer it is superb. This is the intermediate step you need. Of that you can be assured.

As far as arguing full house, three control, two control and even single control (yes I still fly one of those that is glow) all of them are great and have a place in their own way. Aw heck all of them are wonderful and their own challenge.

As far as arguing the modes used to fly those four, three, two and one control airplanes I wont even go there other than to say those are decisions for down the line and exactly what type of those ships with four, three, two and one control airplanes you are flying.

Back to that Bottom line check out the Sensai my friend.

John

Hey, if your buddy doesn't care and you really want to crash an airplane, go ahead!

But to give you a straight answer, you have to think a little more to turn an aileron plane. With these little rudder steered starter jobs, you just push the stick until the nose is going where you want it to. The aerodynamics are designed so that you can't make it roll too much or side slip it. If you try flying an aileron plane that way, you'll roll it upside down and not turn it much at all. Turning with ailerons requires rolling and then pulling back on the elevator, then rolling back the other way to get level again.

I say have a go. If your mate is there to land it then get it high and fly it. It's not like you can hit much as long as you avoid the ground.

i fly a 4 channel trainer and I learnt to turn with aileron. I keep practicing turning with rudder but to be honest I find that with my trainer the turns are far smoother using ailerons. I just make ruder turns as I know it's part of becoming a better pilot and will eventually assist me on landings and landing in crosswinds.

thanks for all the advice, I decided not to fly the corsair yet, as its just too beautiful of a plane to demolish. I've been scrounging around the web and came across Nitroplanes. They seem to have a wide stock of planes and at a unbeatable price, there the cheapest site I've found! I'm planning on sticking to the EPO-foam models as is the FB, and that plane can sure take a beating and come back for more. I'm leaning towards the http://www.nitroplanes.com/60a-dy894...d-rtf-24g.html (dynam T-28 Trojan, 1270mm wingspan RTF $159.00) im leaning towards this because I've heard/read that this plane 'flies like its on rails' and is quite durable, and affordable! also I have a large flying field so the larger planes are not a issue. the battery in the t-28 is a 11.1v 2200mAh 20C Li-Po im wondering if I can use my FB's 1300mAh 2S 7.4V 20C Li-Po in it?

Can you explain what was wrong with how he flew gliders in relation to powered aircraft? I flew gliders for years before I ever touched a powered aircraft and found the skills I learned directly related to powered flight. Powered flight just removed my dependancy on mother nature for my excess lift. I'm not saying you are wrong, just that my experience was completely different. I will say that I never had an instructor until I transitioned into full scale.

You are welcome RB. Be carefull with Nitroplanes, there are two points to consider. First yes they have a wide stock in their catalog but avalibility of that wide selection is often very poor. Parts avalibilty also may be in question.

There is a reason why their prices seem unbeatable and one area that money is saved in many cases is the manuals and instruction included with some of the product. Sometimes very poor chinglish or pictographs is one way money is saved.

As for using the undersized packs you already have is a poor idea at best.

John

There was nothing wrong with the way he flew gliders. He was not used to ailerons nor was he used to throttle to control altitude on approach. You have to admit it is different.
yaw is not the same as roll

Also check out the Value Hobby site for very affordable and well built models.

Ok, in my experience transitioning from a R/E model to one with ailerons, the only real difference is in the responsiveness of the roll. A rudder controlled model will roll but requires a fair amount of input to stay in a bank due to the dihedral, whereas an aileron model will tend to need very little/none/opposite to maintain a bank depending on bank angle and aircraft design. Your best bet is to do as the others have said and move to a decent aileron trainer and maybe even a sport plane after that before attemptng the corsair. The control style is not the problem, its just that the speed at which it responds and flys requires experience that your Stratos can't give you.

http://www.digitalso.com/hu9h.jpgThere are a bunch of misconceptions about model flying.http://www.digitalso.com/hu9h.jpg

What are the misconceptions?

I'm with you mate,i don't know why someone would make a bald statement like that and offer no reason for it.CV8 i mainly noticed going from only flying full size sailplanes to learning how on powered aircraft that turn coordination was different.You did'nt need to hold as much rudder etc as you know.Not much help for models maybe but the same principles should apply.I left out throttle management..that took a while.

Get an Apprentice or LT20 EP as your first real trainer. I learned the fly on an Apprentice all by myself, and now fly a 4*120 and Inversa 280, yet still put the Apprentice up and do things with it, that it shouldnt be able to do, like fly straight and level, upside down, or a knife edge.

Whats funny is I can land all the tail draggers nice and smooth but I still wind up flipping the trike geared Apprentice. Those little wheels just dont like grass.

I hear this three channel vs four channel argument often on the forums. I can only offer my own experience as a beginner. The simple fact is that if you learn on a three channel plane you will have to re-learn different muscle responses to fly a four channel. I have had a sort of reverse experience as I learned to fly RC. On the advice of my LHS I purchased a E-Flite Apprentice four channel trainer. I initiate a turn by feeding in a little rudder followed by aileron and elevator. This is exactly the way I was taught to fly full scale aircraft many years ago. Then I bought the Albatros micro biplane. The rudder is on the left stick, just as it should be. Unfortunately, unless I'm really paying attention, I still feed in a little rudder with the left stick and then try to complete the turn with the right stick. The result is that the Albatros is my most often crashed plane to date.

So I must agree with most of the posters on this thread. Jumping from a three channel trainer to a four channel warbird is too big a step unless you are on a buddy box or very talented.

Storm

Huh? With a three channel plane, the rudder should be on the right stick. The rudder on a three channel plane makes it turn by causing the plane to bank (with the help of the dihedral), just as the ailerons on an aileron-only plane do. If you'd set it up that way, your Albatros would be less battered.

It's certainly true that if you learn to fly with a three channel plane and rudder on the left stick, learning to fly a four channel plane will be a challenge. But there's no reason to do it that way.

I have two other three channel planes and both of them have the rudder on the right stick. I'm flying all three planes using a DX6i. Guess I need to get out the manual and learn how to move the rudder control on the Albatros to the other side.

Storm

Well, once you get past the beginner stage there may be something to be said for having one rudder-only plane with the rudder on the left, because you should be able to turn the plane with either stick, so that would give you some useful practice. I'd make it a plane you aren't real fond of, though.

I totally agree.

The aileron should always be on the right stick for both M1 and M2. You roll the aircraft with the right stick.

If you are using a 3 channel aircraft, (IE with no ailerons) you should plug the rudder servo into the Aileron channel. This way you are still using the right stick for turning left and right and there is nothing to "unlearn"

The Primary effect of Rudder is YAW,

However the Secondary effect of Rudder is ROLL.

A properly designed trainer for 3 channels will have Dihedral that will enhance the secondary effect of rudder.

My first plane was 3 channel, no ailerons and it was quite easy to perform barrel rolls as long as you maintained positive G.

The advantage of ailerons is that the roll control is more precise, more axial and generally more responsive.

So in summary, 3 channel aircraft without ailerons - Rudder is on Right stick

4 Channel aircraft with ailerons - rudder is on Left stick

In both cases, you roll with your right stick..

I spent many years as a flight instructor in real aerobatic aircraft and one emergency we taught students was how to fly with a total loss of aileron and elevator control. It was entirely possible to return to the runway and using only rudder pedals (for roll control) and the elevator trim wheel (which was on a separate cable system).