Rob I 100% agree however do this in a pattern or IMAC contest and you loose at least 1 point per maneuver for not entering with wings level. 1 point per maneuver times 10 maneuvers per sequence multiplied by the K factor and 2 sequences per flight and you could easily be leaving behind 200 points per flight. It's easy to see what motivates us to find other options. As Jim pointed out this isn't really the proper place, if we want to further discuss this maybe the IMAC, pattern or aerodynamics forum would be best. I personally would like to see it addresses in the Pattern forum as there is where it applies beast and that forum has good participation.

+1 :) I really do hate to be a wet blanket...
(yup, I've got a couple thousand hours on an ILS in a crosswind :) )
The pattern forums here are still very much alive and kicking!

most of all have fun, guys.

This isn't really about aerobatics or aerodynamics. It's about the most basic piloting skills and the use/misuse of the rudder which is relevant to beginners and many experienced model fliers who have sadly been misled.

I agree. If we're really going to have a discussion about whether applying rudder makes an airplane yaw, where better than the beginners forum? This is, or ought to be, a first-day-of-school topic.

My pattern bud corrects for a crosswind as Harry C and others stated, yawing briefly with rudder into the crosswind, then neutralizing to hold the ground track with wings level. If one were to continue holding rudder, the plane would continue yawing. Consider holding an upline or downline in a crosswind; you don't continuously hold rudder, as it would change heading.


I fly full-scale also and we use the crab-n-kick method with low-wing birds like Citation biz jets that have very little wingtip clearance; wings level and crabbed to offset the crosswind (not holding rudder there), then kick the nose straight during the flare just prior to the mains touching.
I don't consider it a detriment flying FS, in fact there's transference between both RC and FS, each informs the other.

Rob, well said. Passengers in the back seat will thank you for properly using the rudder. The rudder is very important for all phases of flight ; Taxi, takeoff, climb, turns, slips, and landings. Again, very well said....Dave

Sorry but this is just wrong, no if's or but's.

Any rudder you hold in will cause you plane to fly through the airmass in an arc if your wings are level. The only exception to this is is the rudder is compensating for a bad engine thrustline or asymetrical drag.

IF you are flying inside wing low like many fliers do, and the Aussie's observations at many F3A WC's suggest, even the top guys do it, then yes you will need to hold rudder out if the wind is blowing in or calm. I've personally seen a current top US pilot flying inside wing low and an arcing baseline and it wasn't by accident as every pass (left and right) was inside wing low with an arcing baseline..

I think you master F/S and R/C pilot types that seem to flock around the beginner's forum should get back to actually flying instead of keyboarding us of all your F/S and R/C wisdom, and while you're at it, maybe you can get some video of your own R/C flying to share with us lesser talented pilots so we may learn and see for ourselves of your masterful R/C flying skills and just who is really qualified to teach us the basic 101s of flight... There seems to be a great deal of talk the talk types in these forums but not many that walk the walk. Just an observation, so carry on.:cool:

Bob

Don't get your panties in a bunch there Sensei. It doesn't take a hotshot pilot to know that applying rudder makes a plane yaw, and keeping the rudder deflected makes it keep yawing unless you do something to stop it. "I'm a better pilot than you, so everything you say is wrong" is not a persuasive argument. If memory serves, you once posted a comment saying that you handle a crosswind by dropping the wing on the downwind side and applying opposite rudder. Is thaat right, or do you have one of those magic rudders that cancels out a crosswind without doing anything else?

So you want us to leave beginners at the mercy of the likes of that dreadful video? Who are the beginners to ask, other beginners?

LOL. I see you remembered my words to you old boy... Anyway ding, ding, ding, we have our first expert talk, talk, talk, with nothing to show. Next...

Bob

You guys just don't get it do you? If the airplane is drifting with the wind then you must counter this action somehow. Applying a LITTLE rudder to the direction of the wind will counteract this drift. Someone used the example of the sailplane with a string with the string being strait back. Well DUHHHH that is because the sailplane is drifting with the wind. Another good example is a hot air balloon, from the perspective of a person in the basket it's dead calm. As far as a top leavel pattern pilot flying inside wing down, I'm sure he was down graded for this. If I was sitting in the judges chair ( and I have judged hundreds of IMAC unlimited rounds ) I would have downgraded him. To imply that it was intentional is just ignorance. I'm with Sensi, enough with the talk, it's time for you guys to show us something other then what you read in a full scale book that was published decades ago or what your full scale instructors taught you decades ago. You all may want to check where you are while you are at it, last time I looked this is RCU as in remote control. If you want to debate FULL SCALE piloting techniques you may want to go to that forum to do so.

I'm sorry but it's you that doesn't get it, you are completely wrong. Full-size or model is irrelevant, you don't hold in rudder to counter wind drift, holding in rudder will make the plane fly in a circle.

Speed,

The idea that applying rudder make a plane yaw is not (just) something we read in a book or heard from an instructor. It's intro to flying 101. Every pilot should know this. Saying "show me a video" does not prove that it's wrong. Nobody disagrees with your claim that a pilot can counter a plane's tendency to drift with the wind. Can you show me something that tells pilots that they can do this without either crabbing or slipping (or, in a multi-engine plane, playing with thrust)? If it were true, you'd think it would have been published somewhere, wouldn't you?

Since there are an infinite number of possible wind directions compared to the direction of flight, and only two directions (head on and tailwind) that have no side wind component to the desired track, then almost every part of any flight is done with a sidewind component of some value. Do you really think for even a nano-second, that all those aircraft doing long journeys for hours on end are holding in some rudder all the way?

Top, show me any publications that deal with advanced R/C flying. There aren't any. This is the thing you guys keep getting stuck on. A 15 knot winds influence on a full scale airplane is not the same as it would be on a model. Go fly your GA airplane in a 40 knot wind and then you may get something close. You are correct that physics don't change but because of size, wing loading, power ratio ect. the way our models react to these physics is different then what the reaction of a full scale airplane. I'm sorry you don't get that. The fact that our competition models fly truer ( Less control cross coupling ) makes a difference too. I'm betting that every R/C model you have ever flown ( and full scale too ) has had a roll couple with rudder application. This is where your arc is coming from, the roll couple. I'm betting you have never flown an airplane that exhibits pure yaw control with rudder input and no roll or pitch couple. Think about this for a few minuets before you reply. I will agree that for most airplanes out there you guys are correct, the only reason I jumped on this thread is that you guys seem to be wanting to brow beat this into an absolute and it just isn't so.

Agian.............Harry try to understand this time. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MODELS!!!!!!! What about this do you not get?

Irrelevant. Please show me the parameter in any law of physics that inputs the variable model or full size? Since some models are bigger than some of the smallest full size, please define the cross over point so that we know it is a model or a full size from the point of view of handling. Please describe the mechanism by which an aircraft knows it is a model or a full size so that it handles differently.

As I said in an earlier posts, there are model fliers who form a cult religion about the misuse of rudder and there is nothing in this universe that can show them otherwise.

Harry, the main difference is wing loading. At what point a model becomes full scale? you and I know there is no such point. This just shows that you are stuck on absolutes, black and white if you will. You also know that this question has no real defining answer.As far as the cult thing, aren't you and Top Gunn guilty of this on the opposite side of the fence? I have offered explanation of the fact that you two have no experience flying a certain type of R/C model. I suppose given the opportunity you would tell Jeff Gordon that he is driving his car incorrectly because something he did goes against what you were taught. Go fly an airplane without control cross coupling and then you might understand my perspective.

Eh, you're the one who insists that a plane handles differently depending on whether it is a model or a full size, that is the absolutism.
Wing loading is irrelevant, once again please define the cross over point, show me the equations, where it describes how below a certain wing loading needs rudder into a side wind and above that wing loading it doesn't.

That's just wrong. Suppose your heading is east, with a steady 15 knot wind from the south. Fly (model or full-scale) for an hour. Both the model and the full-scale plane will be carried north 15 nautical miles in an hour. This business of different physics for models is just as wrong as the "I have videos so you're a fool" line that your fellow aerobat keeps pushing.

I've asked you several times whether applying rudder will make a model yaw. You refuse to answer. Why? The fact that it does has nothing to do with power, size, or wing loading. Deflecting the rudder creates lift toward the (now) curved side of the rudder. That makes the tail move toward that side. Even beginners know that.

Of course it will make the airplane yaw but that is where your logic ends. The yaw force applied equals the force applied by the cross wind thus end result is an airplane fly's a strait path while being rotated a few degrees nose into the wind. This is possible with a model the exhibits pure yaw control. Again we are talking models so this is happening for a few seconds at a time your comments about hours long flights are just nonsense. Let's face it, we both have to much invested at this point to see each others view. My vote is to just move along, we each fly our airplanes the way we want and we all stay happy.

So you think a crosswind makes a model yaw, and that you can correct that by keeping the rudder deflected? How would a crosswind do that? (Answer: it wouldn't) The yawing force changes the plane's heading. A crosswind doesn't do that: It carries the plane in the direction in which the wind is blowing without changing its heading.

You are right in saying that once you've yawed the correct amount, the plane will fly a straight path with its nose a few degrees into the wind. My point (and others') is that, once you've made it yaw the right amount, you have to stop yawing, either by returning the rudder to neutral or by using the ailerons. You probably do that without even thinking about it. If you don't do one of those things, the plane will keep yawing.

The only time I can see where holding a rudder input to combat a crosswind would be in a side slip situation.

With wing banked slightly into the wind and holding opposite rudder to prevent the aircraft from turning into the bank direction.

This is a valid technique for flying an approach to landing in a crosswind. (Generally used by light aircraft)

Otherwise if your goal is to fly a ground track in a cross wind then offset the heading. Once that heading is set the plane should be flown in balance. I do understand that you can make minor corrections with rudder to adjust that heading but once set the rudder can be returned to neutral and heading should not change. The plane is moving with the air at all times so there is no "weathercock' effect in steady winds. Varying gusts are a different story,

As for the comments about 'professionals' staying out of the beginners forums. I think most beginners are happy to get advice from more experienced people.

I know I always appreciate the words of an 'expert' when I ask questions about topics that are new to me.

If beginners only want advice from other beginners then it becomes a case of the blind leading the blind.

But remember we are here to help each other and should try not to brow beat one another.

I never said a crosswind makes the model yaw .Your last sentence here proves my point. The airplane drifts with the wind, the only way to correct this is to apply a force equal to the drift. Two options, drop the wing on the side the crosswind is coming from ( downgrade ) or apply a small amount of rudder to that direction. You need to hold the rudder because the crosswind does not magically go away once you establish a line, as soon as you neutralize the rudder the airplane will begin to drift again even though it holds the same heading. You seem to be getting confused between heading and ground track. As we are piloting from the ground with the judges sitting behind us we are concerned with ground track.