SIG Kadet Senior for first plane?
 

Hi folks, I'm new to the pages and have been thinking about getting into RC flying. I gave it a try 37 years ago with limited success (really didn't go about it the correct way, but hey I was young), now older and marginally wiser I've been thinking about getting a Kadet Senior kit as I like the building part of the hobby.
I have read in numerous places that this plane is a gentle flier and works well as a first trainer.

My concerns would be converting to ailerons and possibly building with a two piece wing as I would need to invest in a trailer otherwise. (don't think the full wing is going in my Dodge Charger)

Any thoughts on my "game plan" and also whether I should go 4 stroke over 2 stroke for a first plane, by experienced flyers would be appreciated, thanks.

Welcome to the forum. You should be able to get that wing into your car. If you let the passenger seat down it can go diagonally, or if the back seats will fold down and give you truck access it could work that way.

Engine choice-2 strokes are a little easier to tune and generally have fewer things to go wrong with them.

For ailerons, you just build the wing and then cut them out. Then make a leading and trailing edge for them so you can install the hinges.

Agreed, adding ailerons is no big deal. I did it when I built mine. I went with "barn door" ailerons (like a cub) rather than full span strip ailerons. I also made mine with a 2 piece wing. Not that difficult to add wing joiners at the front and rear spar locations. Unfortunately, due to the heavy dihedral, you can't use a straight wing tube. Instead, for the joiners, I used bass wood or poplar cut in a "v" shape to match the dihedral (probably 3 rib bays into each wing), with the height and width to match the space between the top and bottom spars. If I remember correctly, I then used 1/16" ply as shear webbing on the front and rear of the spars to create a box for the spars and hold it all together. Waxing the wood joiners helps them slide in and out easier.

The Kadet is a wonderful plane to learn on. 2 stroke again is my vote, and making a two piece wing. Many ARFs are joined by the attaching wing bolts these days, I wouldn't hesitate to do as RBACONS suggest, but going in 3 ribs wouldn't be absolutely necessary, but shear webbing often is what I do for most of my builds whether the plans call for it or not, near center. If anything I scratch my head when I run into a kit that doesn't suggest shear webbing in the plan. The strength increases dramatically locking in the spars that way.

If you add ailerons, it would be best to reduce the dihedral somewhat, though it's not absolutely necessary.

I learned to fly with a Kadet Senior built from a kit back in the late '80's. I powered it with a ST.29 (still have the engine). It flew beautifully on 3 channels, and with any sort of headwind you could slow it to a crawl/hover on landing. That gave me time to think about what I was doing and was a real confidence builder. I was off the buddy box after 6 flights. I say go for it!

very fun and easy to fly and See !

My first airplane experience was not learning how to fly ,it was the ground run!....:cool:

The Senior Kadet is an excellent choice for a first model. But because of its stick construction it is not as durable as a solid frame model. But as long as you get help from an experienced pilot it will do just fine. Its easy flying style makes up for the less durable framework. And don't overlook the Seniorita. Its the same plane in a smaller package so its a little easier to transport.

The senior will fly just fine with an inexpensive plain bearing engine like an OS FP-40 or LA 40 or 46. You don't need a bearing engine for this plane. And those engines can be bought off Ebay for $30-$50 bucks. There are almost impossible to wear out and are super easy to adjust.

I have built one Senior and 3 Senioritas and have a Seniorita kit in my attic now. All had ailerons. I just used the simple strip aileron set up. The changes I made were to flatten the wing. Make the wing bolt on and change to tail dragger. None of this was necessary but just something I wanted to do.

My buddy built one just like the plans with no changes and powered it with an FP-40 and it just sorta floated around the sky. About anyone with just a little help could have flown that plane.

When I had my hobby shop I taught many people to fly with the Senior and Seniorita. In my experience a beginner will solo faster without ailerons as that cuts down on the number of things he has to learn all at once. When you solo and start to get some flying time on your own you quickly build the reflexes you need to keep the airplane under your control rather than chasing it around the sky trying to keep it from going out of sight or into the ground. When you get to that stage it is easy to learn how to steer it on the ground with the left hand. A lot of instructors while meaning well forget what they went through when they learned to fly and they want your airplane set up the way they like to fly it. The poor newbe then gets overwhelmed trying to operate both sticks in two axis all at once. While you are first learning it is hard enough to operate one axis on one stick. He will concentrate on the right hand trying to steer initially and you have to remind him to ease off the rudder to keep it from diving then remind him to use elevator to maintain altitude then get him to roll out on the desired heading. The mind will concentrate on only one thing at a time initially and nothing but repetition will help that. When a throttle change is needed the right hand is temporarily out of the loop while the left hand moves the throttle stick. The ideal trainer takes care of itself while you figure out what you need to do and is moving slowly enough that you can find it again when the mind shifts back to the watch mode. This is what I have discovered in 50 years of teaching and the Senior and Seniorita fill these needs as designed. So even if the instructor says you have to have ailerons to learn how to fly, know that you will get to that important solo stage faster without them.

My Senior is powered by a Thunder Tiger GP42. I had to add considerable nose weight, I think 3 ounces. If I were to do it again, I'd put at least a ball bearing .46 on it, a OS .55 isn't out of the question. I used to get mine in a '98 Chevy Cavalier, it's back seat folded down. I looked it up and there is way to remove the back seat on the Charger. Check Youtube. If you put ailerons on it, definitely reduce the dihedral. Also, once you build a Senior Kadet, use every available training material available if you're a newbie. That includes simulators, books and an experienced modeler you can get to help you. The Kadet is good plane, but a lot of work goes into it. Use every available training method available.

What ever you do go to your local flying field and get with an instructor

Hi LXbuilder and welcome to the forum. Just a quick note just in case you are not aware, the current ARF version as all the previous ARF versions come with large barn door ailerons and a reduced dihedral. It also is a taildragger and it of course a superb trainer just like all the versions in the past.

Now before others start throwing rocks at me for even suggesting an ARF over a Kit, Please allow me to explain that for those who do not possess flying skills but want to build most are more successful if they start flying almost immediately with an ARF while at the same time building a kit of some sort.

Now while any of the Cadets are a pretty straight forward project simple projects and a good builder can whip one out in even weeks. However if one is also a new builder then that is definitely not the normal time frame. It is quite the normal for a completion to take over six months or even a full year. By this time many are bored and move on but by flying from the start that motivation for the building is often not lost.

John

Hi Tom Nied,

Just one question. Are you a student or an instructor?

bobsrc, I am neither a student or an instructor. I learned to fly on my Senior Kadet in 2000. I've been building model aircraft since the mid 1960's. Back then I started with free flight and mostly CL flying. Spent a lot of time flying Controline and in the 80's got real interested in Indoor Free Flight (rubber powered). From Indoor flying I learned how to build a model aircraft that after releasing it, would fly on its own. So it was only natural for me to try RC. I take pride in my building and don't rush anything or take anything for granted. The Senior Cadet kit to me was just a big Free Flight model with a radio. For me, it was a bunch of work. So when I was nearing completion, I felt any and all training media was appropriate.

I should add, My Kadet Senior was built as a 3 channel. Throttle, elevator, rudder. The rudder was put on the aileron channel, just as SIG suggests. Flies great.

Just one question Bob, why do you ask?

When I learned to fly back around 1978 my uncle and dad were also learning to fly. And we all had 4 channel models. No one was overwhelmed by having ailerons on their model. We sort of looked down on a 3 channel plane. I learned on a Little Stik. My dad had a Top Flight Freshman and my uncle had a Falcon 56. All 4 channel planes. And none of them as slow flying as a Sig Senior. But there were times a Senior would have been welcomed.

And every 3 channel plane I have ever seen had the rudder on the right stick. And please, they are not Cadets, the trade name for this model is a Kadet. The whole series was named to start with a "K" not a letter "C". I know what you mean but a beginner may not.

See post #47
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/begi...-planes-2.html

Today was my first chance to get back here and check for responses. Thanks so much to everyone of you, I had been thinking about going with the 2 stroke just for the lower cost so for now I think that's what I'll do. I really want to build the plane myself regardless of how reasonably priced these new ARF kits are, but if I don't get the plane built in time for the spring flying season I might consider a second ARF plane to hold me over til the kit build is finished.
Thanks again to everyone, I plan on hanging around and trying to learn a little here.
Jim

Great attitude Jim. You collectively can walk away with the experiences from everyone here, each found their way one way or the other, but for you, you find your own way reflecting on the input from others. Each student has their own learning curve and from my keyboard I have no idea what that process to plateau for you will be. You're in Canada, you certainly have all the time this winter to complete the Kadet in time, no doubt. Lots of sticks on that fuselage, does take more time and patience than other kit designs, but it's very lightweight. Good conclusion on the 2 stroke, for every reason. Keep us posted and if you want to give back, start a build thread, you'll really get a lot of pointers on the successful construction of your model here.

piperjoe over on RCG is building a Kadet Senior: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...g-Kadet-Senior
There are a lot of tips and tricks he's picked up along the way.

This is not a hard model to build. Its a little harder than a plane with solid walls for a fuselage but thats about all. You can build the framework in 3 weekends. Build the wing then the tail group and last the fuselage. The hardest part I thought was getting the fuselage straight. But Sig has a good suggestion in the manual for doing that. It says to use one gallon paint cans to keep the cabin straight and square with it upside down on the plans. Once yo have it anchored you can pull the tail together over the plans and use a square to make sure you are lined up before you glue. Not really hard at all.

Start now and should have it flying in just a couple of months.

How good are your eyes should be the first question for anyone over 50 or 60. A Kadett (German spelling) can pretty much fly itself once trimmed out. Very slow, so it would not be my first choice in windy areas, but fine if you have slowed up a bunch and are literally half blind. While you may be worried about fitting the wing into your car, the fuselage and tail might be even more difficult. Another Sig design a bit smaller is their Kadet Seniorita which is about 80% of the size as the Kadet. You can't go wrong with two cycle glow with these two designs.

If you want something a bit more capable, stick with Sig with the LT-40 or LT-25. All great easy building kits that fly even better.

I have never owned an LT-40 so can't comment but I do have an LT-25 and it flies almost as slow as the Senioritas I have owned. It should take more of a beating than the stick built planes too.

And most of the good upgrades are already done like tail dragger and ailerons. I converted mine to have a bolt on wing. A new flier may not want to make that mod. Mine is powered by a Magnum XLS 25 2 stroke. And what a sweet running engine it is. Too bad they seem to have been discontinued. Having the LT 25 is the only reason I haven't started the Seniorita kit I have stashed in my attic.

You could have the LT-25 framed up in a weekend of steady work. But that may not be fair. I build fast and stay on a plane until its completed. I really like to build.

I have flown numerous LT-40's, and helped build two or three. It is the absolute best trainer yet designed, though not perfect. I also have a fully framed up and covered LT-25 that I have to finish installing the radio. It was a fun build, just takes a couple touches of sandpaper to remove the little ticks of balsa where the laser was shut off to hold the parts in the sheets. I'm installing a Super Tigre .29, but I'm at 3000 feet. It might be able to climb straight up with a 10 x 4 APC prop. Still, it is a Sig design and very well thought out.

You really can learn a lot building a Sig trainer kit. I helped a 10 year kid build an LT-40 around 1998 or so. A pretty long process that lasted months and months, but included flight training and building a 4-Star .40. The kid put about 200 flights on the LT-40, and after whacking the end of the wing going through through a gate, we even chopped off one bay on both ends of the wing to make it a bit higher wing loading. The kid when on to get his degree in mechanical engineering.

Hi LXbuilder Just a thought on carrying the Senior in a coupe or small car. The wing either the 78" kit version or the 80" Arf version is not normally the problem when over the passenger seat or along the side.

As one of the fellows mentioned above the fuselage is the real problem in a small vehicle. So here is the solution one of my past sudents come up with for his Senior about five ears ago:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2196442 http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2196443 http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2196444 http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2196445http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2196445

Sorry for the mistake and the double post of on photo.

Also Kudos to you LXBuilder for considering the two stroke glow engine. Often these days two stroke is touted as a bad choice when in fact many can be wonderful choices. I have done Seniors with no engines, engines up to 1.0 cubic inch and as small as .35 cubic inch, up to four engines and even up to a 13 lb thrust jet turbine.

Back to that .35 though (that is a modern OS .35 AX) Yes it is even smaller than Sigs official recommendation But I still keep that ship as my main go trainer for mentoring the fellows it is simply a superb combination.

John:cool:

Very nice modification John. I would probably put the servos on rails extending forward from the rear half because it is easier to plug into the receiver than takeoff servo arms. It reminds me of an old Ken Willard ShowMaster that I flew 45 years ago. Every bad crash wiped out the front end, but the back end got new noses glued on 3 or 4 times.