WIND!!
 

Okay, today was my first solo in a windy day. About 15 miles wind. I was on my tower trainer. I did about 5 take offs and landings. It was much harder than i expected. The plane was going all over the place. Although in all those take-offs and landings, i brought it back in one piece. I have a 46 size motor. It's gonna' be windy in seattle the entire winter and im looking for a plane which is easier to handle in strong winds. What would you guys suggest. Also, this is what my instructors taught me:

take of cross wind ( and maybe that's why i think take-offs are harder than landings)
land into cross wind.

Is that the right aproach?

RE: WIND!!
 

World Model's T-34 handles wind good. Also your instructors have the right idea.




3D-kid330



[8D]JR radios are the ONLY way to fly!

RE: WIND!!
 

why shouldnt i take off into the wind?

RE: WIND!!
 

If you're landing into the wind and you're on final, just above the stall, and the wind suddenly quits, you've got problems. A crosswind approach lessens this effect (remember your vector geometry?).

RE: WIND!!
 

On a crosswind to the air field i would take off into the wind
and land into the wind. Against the wind not with the wind.

RE: WIND!!
 

okay, this was where i was confused. For example wind is flowing E-->W and i take off from east towards the west and land in the same manner(make the landing from the east towards west)would that be going cross wind or into the wind? Sorry for not being familiar with these basic terms. This would make it a lot more easier.

RE: WIND!!
 

Neither. You would be landing down-wind. (same direction as the wind is blowing). You don't normally want to do this, rather, you want to land/take off against the wind. Using your example, that would be going from W to E. Cross wind landing would be either from N - S, or S - N. (again using your example). The cross-wind landings are harder than up-wind (against-the-wind) landings. I'd recommend you gain experience with the up-wind landings before attempting too many cross-wind landings.

RE: WIND!!
 

With these conditions you should take off from west to east(into the wind)
and land the same way. If you take off from east to west you are taking off down wind
and the same goes for your landing which is not good practice especialy if
the winds are strong. Light winds you can get by with it.

The above example you are taking off and landing down wind(with the wind)
not cross wind. A cross wind would be if you air field was facing North to south
and the wind would be blowing east to west.

RE: WIND!!
 

I would recommend a plane with a symmetrical wing with no dihedral.
A "Hots" or something like that.

RE: WIND!!
 

Stingers do pretty well in the wind and four stars arnt too horriable.

RE: WIND!!
 

Hi AZ, welcome aboard.

I read the whole thread, and am wondering about a number of things, but here is my reply to your original post.

Wind is your friend. Lift is created when your wing goes into wind, and lift is what keeps your plane in the air. Learning to deal with the wind, whatever direction it is blowing, will make your flying experience enjoyable no matter what the weather conditions.

Ideally, the wind would be blowing into your LT's propeller when you're taking off and landing. That is, if the wind is blowing from the east, you would take off and land toward the east. That way, your plane would always experience (1) the maximum lift available, and (2) a higher wind speed than ground speed.

Crosswind landings and takeoffs will require first some experience. A crosswind is, for instance, when your runway is North-South, and the wind is coming from the East or West. With a crosswind, your takeoff or landing is complicated by the wind, which moves your plane across the runway, while providing no lift.

When you are confident about takeoffs and landings into the wind, you will be better equipped to deal with crosswind takeoffs & landings. First, work on rudder use and control of your plane. Work with your instructor, if possible.

A plane with no dihedral will work great when you have more confidence with your LT-40. I think right now the best advice would be to stick with the LT. However, an Avistar might be better on crosswind days.

Good work!
Dave Olson

RE: WIND!!
 

It's not clear what your instructor was advising. If you can take off and land in any direction, then what you want to do is do both heading directly into the wind. This avoids the tendency for the wind to move the plane sideways, plus shortens the distance required to land.

However, on most fields, you don't have this flexibility to take of and land in any direction. You must take off and land parallel to the runway. If the wind is coming straight up or down the runway, you're in luck, all you have to worry about is figuring out how fast the plane is going relative to the wind, so you don't stall.

The big learning curve comes when the wind is across the runway. The problem is the wind hits that big old vertical stab. Once the weight of the plane starts to come off the wheels (and sometimes before), it can be hard to do anything to counteract the wind on the vertical stab.

Here are some hints:

1. If the wind is not directly across the runway, say at 45 degrees or something, and folks at your field are OK with it, you may be able to take off and land directly into the wind, that is, at a 45 degree angle to the runway.

2. Shorten your take off. The faster you get off the ground, the better.

3. On take off be very gentle with the rudder stick. Your natural tendency is going to be to over-react. It takes time for the plane to react, and by then, you've gone too far.

4. Think safety! If there are other pilots, make sure you know what the wind is going to try to do to your plane (it's not intuitive, but your plane will turn into the wind), and be ready to throttle back if things go wrong.

5. Land on the grass. The easiest way to land in a cross wind is called "crabbing". The plane is flying parallel to the runway, but the fuse of the plane is pointing into the wind. That's fine when you're in the air, but it puts considerable stress on the landing gear when you touch down. The grass is easier on the plane than asphalt.

RE: WIND!!
 

One thing that most of us fail to learn is the slip. I mean in no uncertain terms a forward slip not as some refer to it as a side slip. This is often the answer to crosswind landings. If the wind is too strong for a slip into a landing you shouldn't be flying unless it is straight down the runway. Takeoffs and landings across the runway are usually not practical due to runway width. Reminds me of the story about the airliner that landed and had to apply full reverse and emergency braking to stop. Copilot turns to pilot and says "What a short runway for an international airport". Pilot answers "Yes but look how wide it is".

RE: WIND!!
 

I still remember the words of one of my past instructors, "The plane doesn't know it's windy; only the pilot."

RE: WIND!!
 

A light aircraft pilot will land his/her plane at 30% above stall speed plus the wind speed. The lessen for model fliers is: fly comfortablyl above stall and perhaps a bit more when it's windy. The extra speed mitigates the effects of gusts when it's windy. If you're flying in gusty conditions, and you fly your approach near stall, you'll have some trouble as post 4 states.

If the slipping has you knackered then you can simply crab, and straighten out at the last moment. The plane flies the approach with the nose pointed into the wind a bit, but otherwise travels straight down the runway. You may have to control the amount the plane is pointing into the wind to maintain your straight-down-the-centerline direction. You enter the slip during the flare, to get yourself straightened out for touch down. Add some rudder to straight out, and enough opposite aileron to counter the rudder input and remain level if the plane begins to roll. Flying a low wing plane, with a long wing span (e.g. scale glider), you may have no choice but to crab in because your won't have ground clearance to bank the wings in a slip.

RE: WIND!!
 

I always land at about 5MPH under my stall speed. (Harrier landing my Laser).

I'm more normal with my Sukhoi.

RE: WIND!!
 

I realy dont know what they call it but i call it slip.
I have sliped my planes and landed across the field.
Our runway is not to wide. The best friend you have
on windy days is you engine speed and rudder control abilitys.

RE: WIND!!
 

If you apply rudder and opposite aileron then you are side slipping. Normally, the lower wing is on your windward side. You can do that to get pointed straight down the runway and counter drift in a cross wind. It is also a useful (and fun) way to drop some altitude - since it is a high drag configuration for the plane. You've got the fuselage at an angle to the relative wind, hence the high drag. I've never encountered the term forward slip other than to distinquish a straight ahead side slip from a slipping turn.

Here is an example of a plane you might have some trouble side slipping because you'd run out of clearance for the low wing tip as you approach ground: http://www.roedelmodell.de/deutsch/falke.html You'd have to crab it in, then straighten out with rudder as you flare and hold the wings level at the same time.

RE: WIND!!
 

Okay, today was my second attempt to fly in a windy day. About 25MPH S-->N i took off N--S and landed in the same direction. But i was getting scared of the abrupt turns. I dont know why that happens. I used to give it about 1/8th of the available aleron and it used to turn like i gave it full. So i had to turn with aleron and rudder working in opposite directions. Also, my plane was kind of shivering really bad. In a calm wind, it goes straight in a line but now this wasnt the case. Also,this one time my plane took off and the aleron controls werent working for a few seconds. I had to rely on the rudder. THe plane turned itself off the runway across the fence towards the tables and cabins. Good thing there wasnt anyone around or they would have shouted at me for making such a move.

My question is, how to avoid all of this? And i was wondering how much wind can these 40 size trainers take before it would be almost impossible to fly it. In other words, what was the worst wind condition when you flew a plane.

RE: WIND!!
 

The plane "sees" no wind, ONCE YOUR IN THE AIR.
Since you are a begginner, take off and land INTO the wind.
It would be good to learn slips ect., sooner, than later.
There are some better planes for wind, but all planes fly the same in the wind, what you are really asking is this; what planes will be tossed around less by the turbulence, when it's windy?
The answer would be planes with a higher wing loading.
Fly what you've got, and practice practice practice. I regularly "fly in place when the winds are steady, and smooth- no runway required!

Jetts

RE: WIND!!
 

As was said before ... the plane does not know about the wind, only the pilot does.... to a point.

There are two types of "adverse" winds .... Strong, and gusty. A strong, but consistent wind will make the plane behave eratically on the ground because it's controls are realtive to the ground, but the wind-speed is relative to the wind. The biggest danger in strong, but consistent winds on the ground is of your plane simply blowing over when it is perpendicular to the wind. Planes with dihedral (trainers) are especially vulnerable to this. I have flown in these conditions in my trainer (resulting in at least 5 flip overs before I learned) and the only way to cope was to walk my plane to the start of the runway, take off directly into the wind, and land directly into the wind. On the ground, I never turned the plane out ofthe wind, so on landing, I would walk to where the plane stopped, and carry it back to the pits. Turning it on the ground is not an option.

Strong consistent winds in the air though, are not a real problem. Your plane "slows down" into the wind, even though it's airspeed is consistent. I have flown my plane backwards on windy days, because the wind was faster than the stall speed of my trainer. When gpoing down wind, the plane goes really fast (relative to the ground). This makes the turns appear to be really sharp when you transition from upwind to down-wind as the ground-speed changes so drastically. This does not mean that the turns are that much sharper in the air....

One more big concern with strong winds is the effect of ground obstacles when you fly at low altitudes.... I am thinking particularly of landins. A bush, or tree that you have to fly over when landing will cause a "wave" of rising air as the strong wind passes over it. Your plane may get really bouncy as you pass over these objects. My field is particularly prone to this as it is surrounded by big bushes. Approaching over the bushes can be intimidating, but the bounciness is pretty benign. It typically means a sudden up lift followed by an equal down drop. Keeping the plane controls steady will be fine.

Gusty winds are another problem though. Your plane has mass, and moving mass has inertia. Your plane has wings which generate lift in proportion to relative air-speed. The lift is a force that is instantaneously coupled to airspeed. You stop the air, and you immediately have no lift. Momentum is affected by drag which is relative to airspeed, but is not an immediate thing to change. If the wind drops suddenly, then your plane looses the lift it had previously, and it will immediatly start to drop, and the reduced drag will slowly make it gain grounspeed. Equally, a sudden gust will cause the plane to immediatly start rising (more lift), and to slow down relative to the gound (more drag). The effect of this is that you have less control of the groundspeed, airspeed, and altitude of your plane when it is gusty. This makes it far more difficult than a strong, but steady wind. The only way to deal with gusty wind is to not get yourself in a position where a gust (or lack thereof) will compromise the safety of your flight. If you are high up, this is never a problem, but when landing (and somewhat on take-off), your best defence is to land faster than normal (so that a sudden wind-drop will not make you stall), aim to land further along the runway (so that a sudden altitude drop will not cause you to hit early), and to always be prepared to abort if necessary. Pick your moment to land.

gus

RE: WIND!!
 

Hello group,

Here in Kansas it's very windy most of the time, so you have to learn to handle it or you don't get to fly much. However, there are a few tricks to setting up your plane that will really help you fly....and land, on windy days.

I fly my Kadet LT40 (TT46) regularly on very windy days. Here's some things that help.

I took most of the dihedral out of the wing, and out of those angled wing tips.

I cut about an inch off the rudder front and top. (didn't effect handling).

I installed a Fults front landing gesr and heavier main landing gear, spread to be as low as possible.

On windy days I run a 12/6 APC prop for thrust.

But the best mod was to glue four .45 lead round balls just inside the wing tips. (I also shoot black powder revolvers so these were laying around). In a row, two in front of CG and two behund, to maintain correct CG. Getting the extra weight out at the wing tips, along with the low wide mains, and higher wing loading (the Kadet handles the extra weight fine) makes this plane almost impervious to crosswinds, on the ground and in the air. I increased the aileron throw a little, though it still rolls a little slower. It no longer has a tendency to pancake over when I turn downwind.

IMO, the perfect windy weather plane would have a symetrical wing with minimum deheydral, shoulder mounted, built light but weighted at wing tips, round rather than flat sided fuse, low profile rudder with lots of throw, low trike gear and CG a little nose heavy. Definately needs to be somewhat overpowered, prefer 4stroke.

opinions will vary, Smakdown

RE: WIND!!
 

Azseattle, here's another tid-bit that might help with winds and what people are talking about here...

Lets say there is no wind, and your plane's stall speed is 15 mph. Well, you apply throttle, and once you are moving along the ground at 15 mph or better, you can lift off!

Now lets say there is a 10 mph from the north, heading south. So, you put your plane on the ground facing the wind, north. Heyyyy, check it out! Your plane is sitting still, but the wing thinks its already going at 10 mph!!! Now you add power, your plane gets up to 5 mph, and you can lift off!!! The wing is seeing 15 mph, but YOU are seeing 5mph. In other words, the AIRSPEED is 15 mph, but the GROUNDSPEED is 5 mph.

See the advantage of taking off and landing into the wind?

Taking this a step further, up till now you may have grown accustomed to eyeballing the appropriate speed to land. Basically you are judging the approach speed by ground speed, not airspeed. Well, lets say again your stall speed is 15 mph. Using the 30% rule you decide to use an approach speed 20 mph. Fine, you come in at 20 mph, come over the landing area, reduce power, flare, land. Niiiccccce.

Sooo, now on a windy day you try to replicate this speed you are used to seeing. But you are landing into a 20 mph wind (what we call headwind). You find you need more power to get to the 20 mph groundspeed you are used to seeing. BUT, your wing could care less about groundspeed, its only interested in AIRSPEED, which is now 40 mph! As a result, the controls are more responsive, and you are getting bounced around.

But if you apply what you know now about airspeed vs. groundspeed, you can learn to come in at slower groundspeeds while your plane is at the appropriate airspeed. Taking advantage of the "headwind" will let you land slower and more precisely.