First Plane
 

IMO, dual rates are going the way of the dodo for most sport flyers. While training, what is the point of them? As the student progresses more throw can be mechanically dialed in if it's needed.

During my time with a basic 4, I never once desired dual rates. I simply moved the sticks less or more depending upon what I needed. Now I use exponential, which I think most people vastly prefer to dual rates.

Good choice on the engine, Dbow. Buy a couple of 11x5 and 11x6 props, and you'll find which one your engine/plane combination flies best with. Visit the club you plan to join, and find out which brand of radios the instructors there use. That'll let you make an informed choice that'll be buddy box compatible with them.

AVISTAR
 

Geistware,

I already put in an order for the Hobbico Superstar as I stated earlier.

The Avistar looks like a good plane as well, but Tower does not currently have it in an ARF.
Someone posted earlier that the Avistar will soon be available as an ARF.
I looked at the Sig LT-40 which seems to be the most suggested trainer for a beginner on this forum, however I feel that the Tower and Hobbico kits have better support. I was able to download the instructions for both the Tower Trainer and the Superstar and look them over before buying.

I decided against the Tower trainer because I learned in this thread that that plane has contact paper for a covering rather than monokote or ultrakote. That was basically the only thing that made me change my mind.
Some others gave bad opinions of Towers products which is fine, but I think Tower is an excellent company with great products and customer service. I have been a Tower member for several years and never had any problems with the tons of orders I have gotten. Its the first place I check for anything hobby related that I might need.
Not saying anyone was directly putting down Tower as a business or anything, just supporting them because all of my experiences at Tower have been significantly better than experiences at other online hobby sellers.

Thanks all

Dbow

Re: AVISTAR
 

I mentioned that the Midwest Aerostar is just now becoming available as an ARF. The Hobbico Avistar is only available as an ARF. It's never been a kit.

One of the things you'll find as you progress in the hobby is that the very best support comes from your fellow modelers. One of the reasons the LT-40 is so often recommended is that many, many of the modelers here have had great experiences with it, as both instructors and learners.

The other thing you'll find is that some products really need a company's support system. I'm not saying that great customer support is always the result of problematic products, but that's sometimes the case. Sig used to have one of the best support staffs in the business with their modeler's hotline. Their products are almost universally praised within the hobby.

First Plane
 

What makes the Best Trainer.

A while back I was helping another new student, Grant. He has a PT60 with a OS FP60 and a Focus 4 four channel radio. He got everything as a package. Teaching him to fly with this plane is almost impossible. The engine is great, the plane takes off and lands ok, but it is a pig in the air and difficult to fly. He built it according to the instructions with an obscene amount of dihedral. We were flying in a moderately stiff breeze, 12-15mph. The plane had slightly more throws than recommended. Turning down wind tool a little aileron and let go of the sticks and it completed the turn and headed down wind on it’s own. Turning up wind was almost impossible without coordinated use of aileron, rudder, and elevator. Flying it seems more like fighting the plane to get it where we want it than having it fly where we tell it. It does not respond to control inputs in a uniform manner. It is difficult to teach a skill when identical actions get different responses. I will again start a thread on what makes a good trainer.

The current dogma says to learn to fly RC model airplanes the best way to start is with a “Trainer” that has a high flat bottom wing with generous dihedral so it self corrects. I believe this is wrong! I believe the following are the best characteristics for a trainer.

1. Flies Slow (light wing loading)
2. Flies Very Stable
3. Responds to controls in a uniform fashion (Does What it’s told When it’s told the same way every time)
4. Inexpensive and easy to repair

Take note, nowhere in that list do I list the type of plane, high wing, low wing, mid, wing shoulder wing, doesn’t make that big a difference as long as it is slow stable responds to it’s controls uniformly. It is an easy task to limit the amount of control to get the control rate at an acceptable level for a beginner.

Nowhere in the list is the term “Self Correcting”. Planes designed to self-correct are harder to fly. If you try to allow them to self correct they will crash long before finish correcting themselves or you fly them so high you can’t tell what the plane is doing. “Self Correcting” also means that you will have to fight the plane to turn up wind, fight the plane to turn it in general. We are teaching people to fly R/C models not guide free flight models. The early days of RC we used modified free flight models. Current Trainers reflect our free flight heritage.

My experience has shown that people who learn with typical Trainers all learn in about the same amount of time as somebody who learns with a “Sport” plane. I know a lot of people have successfully learned to fly with Eagle II’s and the like but from what I’ve seen the people who learn with a “Trainer” crash more after they solo, especially when they go to something sportier. After learning with a “Trainer” they pretty much have to re-learn to fly anything else. People who learn with a “Sport” plane learn to fly just as fast, crash less after they solo, and can fly a larger variety of aircraft sooner.

Planes I think make good trainers and that I have successfully taught people to fly with:
1. Four Star 40 (probably the best trainer ever!!!)
2. American Flyer (ARF)
3. Ugly Stick (any of several variations)
4. Easy Sport 40
5. Airmidillo Trainer
6. Sig LT25 (very slow, very responsive, way better flier than LT40)
7. Thundar Tiger Wold Trainer 40H (semi-symmetrical high-wing low-dihedral ARF – This one looks like a typical “Trainer” but flies like a typical “Sport” model)

All these planes are very stable, don’t tip stall, can fly very slowly, respond uniformly to controls, and have fairly light wing loading. These characteristics make better trainers than typical Trainers. Now all we have to do is get instructors to take a critical look at Trainers. I don’t buy arguments like: “The XYZ trainer has worked great to train zillions of students for years”, or “I learned on a SR. Kadet, so that’s the best trainer”. Doctors used to bleed people that didn’t make it right. With the absolutely dependable radios of today, and buddy cords, we don’t need to learn with glorified free flight models.

Tom Rhodes

Plane Arrived Today
 

The SuperStar came in Via Fed-X from Tower Today. I was not home and ended up going and picking it up.
Box was in great condition.....

http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/at...-8-2-02-01.JPG


Here is the contents as I unpacked it.

http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/at...-8-2-02-03.JPG

Everything looks great, I inspected everything and it looks like they did a fantastic job on the building of this plane. There are maybe a couple of places inside the fuse that I will add more glue but looks good.
MonoKote looks great too, couple of wrinkles here and there but not very noticeable at all. I dont really see how you couldnt get a couple of wrinkles applying this stuff.
Anyhow, will start building sometime Saturday or Sunday.

Will post Pictures of my progress, Im sure I will have some questions too.
Currently trying to find a way to bend the metal pipe for the fuel tank vent. I dont want it to cave in, but was thinking I could put something inside of it. Dont know, I know they make a tool for this so I might swing by the hobby shop in the morning and see if they have it.

Thanks

dbow

First Plane
 

Looks great, Dbow! Enjoy putting it together, and take it slow!

I usually use a pipe as a form to bend the brass vent line for the tank. It gives me a nice, constant curve. I'm sure somebody else will have other methods you might want to consider too.

First Plane
 

Hi dbow, there's quite a few tools to bend the
tubing,but I insert a drill bit at the point I want to start the bend ,bend the tubing a small amount, pull a litte of the bit from the tubing and bend a little, works great and takes longer to tell about it than to bend the tubing, you are going to remove the inside and outside burrs on the brass tubing before connecting to the fuel line,Right??? Have fun building, John

Re: Plane Arrived Today
 

Yes, they make tubing bending tools... but you can also use a length of
the flexible control cable inserted into the tube while bending.
There is a size that's nearly perfect for this. (Though I dunno, of the top of me head)
I'm sure you'll have some in the junk drawer some day, but probably not yet ;)

First Plane
 

DBow,

I had an Avistar (very similar), and here are a few lessons that I learned from it...

1) Replace the aluminum fuel tubing with brass. The brass will be easier to bend.

2) Add a third line to the tank. The stopper should have 3 holes for this. Use this third line for adding fuel. Get something to plug it with, or better yet get some fuel dots. Your LHS should have them. This will save you from having to pull the line off of the carb every time...

3) My firewall was not properly glued in. Really inspect this area. I ended up adding a lot of CA, but thinned epoxy could be better.

Good luck! I have seen this model fly and it looked great!

First Plane
 

You would be better off to put 12 min epoxy on the back side of the firewall to give it the support it needs if they didnt glue it in right and will save you a lot of trouble later on thin CA is alright on balsa but on plywood you need epoxy and cover all the joints with a good coat..

Radio
 

Elwood,

Thanks for the tips, I think thats a great idea about the brass tube. I will pick some up in the morning.
I did wonder how I was gonna get the fuel in the tank but was putting it off till I got to that point. I just looked at it and there is a third hole in the rubber seal for the tank. It does not go all the way through to the top but wont take much to push it through.

I do plan to run through the fuse with some epoxy just to be safe.

The only other thing that I was was confused about from the directions was the aileron hinges. I thought something had been left out of the kit until I found the small fabric like pieces. Thing is the directions do not address what orientation these should be in. Meaning that the hinge has a slit in the center which I figure would go from right to left (paralle to the length of the wing). Picture in the instructions appears to show the slit going from front to back.
Not sure it really matters after taking a scrap piece and applying some glue. I thought it would be hard and un-flexible but seems to fold easily.

My other dilema is with the radio, We have talked about them here a bit and I have decided the to get a 6 channel.
I have been looking at the Futaba 6DA and also at the PCM radios. I have always made it a point to have PCM in my Gas cars but Im not sure it would be so useful on a plane. The PCM radio Im looking at is the Futaba 6XAPS. Only problem is that the rec. does not work with a trainer system or buddy box. While you can switch between modes, the directions say you must have an FM only rec. for using the training system.

Anyhow, dont want to start a war here about the pros and cons of PCM, but any experiences or opinions about the 6DA would be nice.

Oh and I should begin building sometime Sunday, I m still cleaning all my gas car stuff off my hobby table. After an hour of organizing I can actually see the surface of the table...lol

Dbow

First Plane
 

Slits in the CA hinges should be forward and back, not parallel. I hope it is't too late.

First Plane
 

I have 3 OS 46FX's, and I love 'em. They really work best on planes such as yours with 11x5,10x6 props(APC). When you want more power later, buy a replacement muffler From Tower for the Tower Hobbies .46BB, It bolts right on and will give you 1000 or more additional rpm with mentioned props, you won't be disappointed.

JJ

First Plane
 

The 6DA is a mechanical radio at a computer radio price. It's targeted at those who are skitish about using a computer radio. If you've got your heart set on Futaba, get a 6XAS. Check with your instructor to make sure that he has a radio that's compatible for buddy-boxing before you purchase.

Update
 

The plane is coming along, I have glued the wings and cut the servo hole for the ailerons. Im having to do a little more cutting and fitting than I thought I would, but having fun doing it.

I also installed the tail fins and I think I got them fairly close to perfect on the alignment.


I did have one problem though, When installing the ailerons on the wings I screwed up big time. I put the little hinges in the slots then pushed the aileron into place. I pulled it out slightly so I could add some glue, well I think you know what happen. It took about 4 or 5 seconds for me to apply the glue to all hinges, by the time I tried to push it in it was seized. Well I did get them out and was able to do so without causing any real damage.
I put them all the way back in and then applied the glue with a toothpick. There is a slight gap between the aileron and the wing but very slight on that side.
Right side turned out good now that I know how to add the glue.

Im not impressed with the directions for this plane, there are a lot of steps that it just does not mention. Being a first plane and all I thought they would be a lot more descriptive. There are a ton of steps where mistakes can be easily made and no turning back basically. Im not saying its hard to build, its quite easy actually and Im already thinking of my second plane. I just think the directions could be better.

Well I have not had much time to build but getting there, the engine and radio come this week along with props and balencers and all that good stuff.
I should have this thing ready in another week or so depending on how much time I get this weekend.

Will post some pictures of my progress when I get home tonight.


Again, thanks for all the help and suggestions.

Dbow

First Plane
 

Just for future reference, when you use those hinges, just put them in the wing, then attach the ailerons before gluing. then just move the ailerons to one side and add like 3-4 drops of thin CA glue (sounds like you used epoxy) to the hinges themselves. the glue will absorb (wick) into the hinges and make a very strong bond. I had an avistar as my first plane. You're going to have a blast !!

hinges
 

Tmproff,

Ya I learned that the hard way...lol

I did use Thin Ca, but it dried quicker than I expected. I have used thin numerous times in the past for all kinds of applications and it has never dried that fast.
I think it was the hinge material that caused it to dry so quickly.

anyhow, everything appears to be o.k.

Dbow

First Plane
 

I read all this and thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

IMHO, you were right on track on 7/31. The SuperStar is a great plane, which you already have. The OS engine is great and can be reused for a future plane. And I would recommend going with a basic 4 channel with BB servos for the following reasons:

1) They only cost about $10 more than the flight pack alone, and that flight pack can be reused with your future computer radio.
2) The 6DA will likely get replaced by a computer radio in the near future and its features are not needed for a trainer, so that would be money down the drain.
3) You probably don't know where this hobby will take you, so you don't know which computer radio to buy at this point.

: )

First Plane
 

dbow,
You should be fine with your slightly larger hinge gap on one side. I saw a guy at the field with an LT-40 ARF with relatively wide hinge gaps on his ailerons, the plane flew just fine. I don't think it's as critical on a trainer.

Mike

First Plane
 

A big hinge gap is a problem at high speeds, especially when banking or when pulling out from a dive, if your gap is large, I would just avoid these situations,or seal the hinge gaps. My trainer was an Avistar with a 46FX and it certainly was fast enough to pull or flutter a control surface. Better safe than sorry.

JJ

First Plane
 

Even if sealing the gap doesn't stop all flutter,it helps ,also sealing the gaps on every control helps the efficiency of the airflow,agree it doesn't show up as much on a trainer when you first start learning,but every little bit helps,also if your're going to do something ,do it right the first,learning bad habits can be hard to break later

New Pictures
 

BackAfter20,

I agree with you to a certain point about the radio, I mean if I was to start flying and for some reason decided that I didnt like it I would of course be looking to sell my equipment. I dont think thats going to happen but I feel a basic 4 channel which I have priced in the $150 range (something decent) would actually end up costing me more.
For 1 the basic radio would be harder to sell unless I found someone just getting into the hobby. On top of that if i decide to stay with it and move on to others planes I will have to get another radio. So now I would have the $150 radio which would basically be worthless to me and have to throw another $250 down for the new one. At that point I would have $400 in radios.

Now I realize someone is going to say that they still have there basic 4 channel and still use it years later.
Thats great that its still in use, but I figure that getting a decent computerized radio that has all of the functions that a large amount of flyers like is a better bet.
In most cases your right I wont use most of the functions of the computer radio on the trainer. Keep in mind though that I plan to start buliding my second plane before I even finish learning to fly..lol
The Radio I have selected is the Futaba 6XAS, I realize this is not the pinacle of the computer radios, however it seems to have all the features I would ever need. It is a PCM radio which comes with a FM rec. which would be compatible with training systems.
One of my main buying points was to have PCM, which the radio will do if you purchase an additional 1024 PCM rec.


As for the gap on the ailerons, it is very very small, I dont think it will cause any problems. Maybe I can take a picture of it and post it up here tonight.

For the time being, here are some pics of the planes.

THanks

Dbow

http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/at...8-06-02-02.jpg
http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/at...8-06-02-04.jpg

First Plane
 

hmm after all this i just decided to go from the Tower 40 trainer to your superstar...

First Plane
 

Hi dbow,
your plane looks good,makes me wish for 5 pm so I can go fly.It's your money and choice of planes and equiment so get what ever you want,when you ask for an opinion,especially in r/c planes,you will get someones opinion,doesn,t matter if you use it or not,that is one of the great things about this hobby/sport,keep us informed on your progress.
Have a nice day,John

Superstar
 

ScubaSteve,

Thats awesome that you read here and decided on the same plane.
This ARF is fairly good, of course I have nothing to compare it to but can tell you that its a quality kit.
One of the main things that made me decide on the superstar over the tower kit was the monokote covering. The Tower .40 has contact paper for a covering which is a cheap way to go. From what I understand its difficult to repair as well.

As for my experiencewith this kit so far:
There are a couple places in the fuse that I would suggest adding some epoxy. I am planning to coat the fuel tank area with epoxy in case of a fuel leak.
I would also make note about the fabris hinges on the ailerons and such, push them in all the way before adding any glue. Basically just move the aireons down to add glue. I used a light underneath the wing so I could see the hinges good, then applied drops of glue with a T-pin. Once you touch the hinge with the drop it sucks the glue right up. This will all make sense when you get to this point.

I still need to install the radio , engine and balance the prop, which I have a top flite balancer coming.
Still not sure about the props though, I have read that I will need a reamer to open the hole in the center of the prop.

Tower has a metric and a standard which I think the shaft on the O.S 46 is metric. The reamer is only about $10 so not that bad.

Keep us informed on your kit scubasteve.

TerrellFlyer,

You are so right, I do value all the opinons here, heck the information here has saved me a lot of time and money and had helped me shape and form my opinions.
I hope that I too can offer suggestions and help other people just starting in this hobby in the future.

Thanks

dbow