New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

Currently my club has a very enviable, great, GROWING "PROBLEM" - How do we train and certify all the new guys coming into the hobby and club? While we have plenty of qualified pilots and some that have even been "named" as instructors we don't have a formal training / sign off program in place or any rules that would make completion of such a program mandatory. "Shame on us" you might be saying and would be correct in doing so. Generally in the past we've been able to intercept newcomers when they set their plane up on the bench for the first time and need help starting their motors-we can then recognize them as new pilots and get them on a buddy cord. That's how I came in and first got trained. However, my own experience is that I "graduated" myself from the buddy box too soon, crashed too many airplanes and almost quit. I really wish now that I'd had a detailed list of things to accomplish and someone else's approval before that first solo flight (and crash).

A case in point-Two brothers came up to field last fall with a Kadet Senior. I don't know who had the good sense to buy that particular plane but it was the only smart thing about the story. They had talked to the LHS and knew about Buddy boxes so they had two radios tied together on a buddy box. They fired up their motor, went to the flight line and took off. Neither had ever flown before!! Halfway through the flight they switched radios!!!

A second problem is the guys that have some experience with park flyers or what's worse, flight simulators, and decide to move up to glow. Because of their "experience" they don't feel like they need a buddy box or certainly not for long. They take one or two flights with an instructor taking off and landing, make a turn or two and think they're ready to solo. They come up the next day when nobody from the day before is at the field and try to solo. Maybe they survive, maybe they don't but they shouldn't be trying to begin with.

Again, we understand the fault is ours, what do we do about it? I've looked at Dist of Columbia's site, N Virginia's site and Palo's ...does anyone else have anything. I think its interesting that Mentor Area RC supposedly had a good check off program but now their website is down and their discussion group has apparently died. Could it be that they regulated themselves into the ground?

New guys ... How would you feel having to complete a formal training process before becoming "licensed" to solo?

Sorry this was so long winded .... HELP please

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

Re: "New guys ... How would you feel having to complete a formal training process before becoming "licensed" to solo?< This should mandatory, not an option! Its not doing your club or our hobby any favours by letting new guys have at it and see what happens. Our insurance is through MAAC. Their internet site has a trainging course and a training guide. You can download them and make changes to suit your club. I have included the links below. Does this help?
http://www.maac.ca/
http://www.maac.ca/docs/doc_flight_t...g_course_e.pdf
http://www.maac.ca/docs/doc_flight_training_guide_e.pdf
[8D]

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

I'll start by addressing the new breed of RCers. I'm not going to debate those individuals self taught on the numerous flight simulator programs but this type of approach to becoming a proficient RC pilot is only an aid. If you can fly on the simulator it does not qualify you to fly in the real world. The purpose of the simulator is only an instructional aid and nothing else. I will admitt that receiving simulator time does decrease the learning curve.
If your club does not own or lease the property you fly from than you have no control over those individuals who wish to use your flying facility. Get control of the land and you have control of those who wish to use it. Once control is established you can make rules to govern the activity. The AMA has an excellent flight training program that you should look into. If you wish not to become affliliate with the AMA use there guidelines to set up your club.
With the explosion of electric powered RC models we have whitnessed the invasion of the younger generation and believe me they do not think or behave like the adult population. It got so bad in Victorville, Ca. that the gas/glow poered modelers ran them off the local flying site. These electric flyers formed there own society and now fly by themselves in a hay field far away from site they tried to takeover.

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

I have been flying for only one year and my memory of the learning experience is fresh. In my opinion, the previous posts get it just about right.

I belong to the Northern Virginia club that was mentioned (Northern Virginia Radio Control, www.1nvrc.com ) and I believe that the experience of "getting qualified" was just about right. When I was deemed qualified to fly on my own by two club instructors I was capable of managing the airplane and not endangering others around me. At the same time the requirements for qualification were not unreasonably stringent so as to be discouraging or perceived as designed to keep away beginners. I'm still a beginner, but I can work on my skills by myself or I can always find a more experienced club member who will assist me when I ask.

Our requirements for qualification and an instructor's guide are published on our Web site and may provide a good starting point for those who are interested.

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

I instruct at a club where one of the guys took it upon himself to create a safety / training program. He and I are about the only volunteers, and we differ a bit in our methods, but we both explain to the new pilot that our objective is to make the initial investment last beyond the training period, and include safety as a training element.

I make the student do all the work, including plugging in the transmitters and extending the antenna, retrieving the frequency pin, and starting the engine safely. I don't let them reach past the prop to get the glow driver, I make them walk around. I feel all those are good habits to develop.

I like to explain that the student has to fly straight and turn around, so I start them on the cord doing circuits or figure 8's. When they can do that, we work on approaches and takeoffs, and when they get past the difficulty with control on approach, we try landing. I also get them to do loops & rolls, manage throttle, do emergency throttledowns, recover from spins and un-trim and re-trim the plane in the air.

When they can takeoff & land, and the cord is removed, we have them demonstrate some basic maneuvers and take a little oral test (after some study time) and give them a Solo Pilot patch. We feel pretty good about the safety program and our instruction methods.

Sometimes we wish there were more volunteer instructors, and it sounds like you would like to have more instructors at your field, too. Don't know how to address that, it's sort of a volunteer thing, and a lot of competent flyers don't want to fly someone else's plane, let alone do instruction. If you come up with a solution for that one, please write about it!

Good luck,
Dave Olson

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

Thanks guys -
Fastsky - That's some great documentation; I love the test at the end
flycatch - So far the electrics and the glows in our club are getting along great. (I won 4 electrics and 4 glow planes). Electric flight seems to be able to get people into RC without the fear of having a lot of money tied up in a plane and gear that they're afraid will crash. Everyone that I know that started with electric graduated to glow within a few months so we're glad to have em.
dmanson - Thanks for the feedback from someone that's been through this! I'm glad to hear that you think it enhanced your initial experience and didn't feel stifled by it.

Keep em coming!!

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

Dave, the number of instructors in my club is not a problem...apparently we'll let people instruct after their second solo:D Seriously, we have a number of really good, experienced pilots that love to see new guys learning to fly. We just have never seen the need before to develop a rigorous training program.

Tim

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

A minimal approach?

Why mandate a license to fly-? Maybe it is just enough to have all new aircraft checked for safety (mandatory)-and use the inspection as a chance to offer advise to those who need it.

A simple sign- All new aircraft must be inspected for safety. New pilots should get a safety brief by a qualified club member- The club member could use this as an interview to evaluate the new fliers experience.

All members should then have a (symbol) like a small gold sticker on the tail to identify approved pilots and safety inspected planes- Anyone who shows up without one would be easy to spot.

Plus all aircraft should be inspected by someone other than the builder-

Just some thoughts......

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

Broken,

I agree with you, but I do have a concern about who is going to do the inspection? You and I fly at the same field I would bet. Think about that field. Who is ever there that is "in charge"? I frankly would like to see things get a little more tight. We just need to be aware that as things get tighter, someone has to be the person to adminster to the rules.

I ask this because I honestly don't know the answer.
Way back in the day pretty much everyone was a member of the club, is that still true?

Tom

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

Liberator-
Your right of course. But I think our field is an exception to the rule (no AMA required) as it is governed under state park laws and as such anyone can go fly- And as you probably know it gets scary out their sometimes.

I try to get to know *new* fliers but thats not enough it never will be. You are right in that we need to tighten it up a bit- But how is a big question.
http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com...05&Y=90372&W=1

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

You people would make a great bunch of bureaucrats in just about any organization. In fact, I think most of you would prefer lecturing and training novices in the "correct" way to go about doing things regardless of what those things are. In addition to your lectures and instructions, you could turn out volumes of rules on etiquette and procedures that would absorb the time of the multitudes forced into reading them.

Why don't you people realize this is a hobby about flying toy airplanes? As long as the people who come to the field (with the AMA membership of course) don't hurt anyone or anything but their airplanes what difference does it make the path they take learning to fly? Intelligent people will try to acquaint themselves as much as possible with the hobby and probably observe other flyers and seek instruction as they see fit.

With forty years as a military pilot and a test pilot, I can tell you that good pilots are self taught. About all flight instructors do is get the student off the ground and back on it. What happens in between is up to the student pilot. Often the flight instructors are only a handful of flights away from the student. Since model airplane pilots aren't risking their own lives, I don't see a thing wrong with individuals who are brave enough to teach themselves how to fly. In fact, if any of you knew anything about the history of aviation, you'd understand that about the only way it advanced techically was through the guts and courage of the men who went out and flew off into the unknown.

In any case, the absolute best way to learn to fly a model airplane is practicing a regimen on a flight simulator. One thing a club could do is provide a list of things to practice on the simulator along with some help finding and hooking up to the software. As a pilot who has spents hundreds of hours in simulators, I highly recommend FMS (Flying Model Simulator) which is free and can be downloaded off the Interent. Of course, this takes some initiative on the part of the student, but then so does just about anything.

Anyway people should be allowed to find their own way even if it leads to disaster. Some people will be discouraged and give up and that's the way it should be. Others will be intrigued by the adventure and become even more determined to overcome any obstacles. If anything is wrong with American society today is the Political Correctness that pervades our culture. This creates a obedient citizenry that feels compelled to follow some sort of prescribed rules or formula in attempting to accomplish a goal.

Ciao,

Eagle Al[&o]

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

As a newbie, I have a lot of respect for the club I just joined - the Screaming Eagles in Plainfield, IN. They have a formal sign-off before you can solo. Even thought I have already flown before - almost to solo - I still have to show proficiency in front of them. They encourage several instructors to spend time with me and each will sign-off as I perform various maneuvers, etc. Before I even had my NexStar on the tarmac I spent time in front of an instructor who sat down with me and went over the rules and regulations of the club and the field. Then they inspected my plane, and quizzed me about it. My first instructor flew her and then gave me some tips for trimming, how to tune the engine, etc. It was windy that day so I left, with the packet of papers about the club and field in hand. Every experience at the field with instructors have been great and I would strongly encourage every newbie to the hobby to get acquainted with a club like it.

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

I havent even flown yet, but i think the idea of forcing new pilots to at least demonstarate profficiency is a good idea. at the club i will be learning at, EVERYONE who joins must demonstrate the basic ability to fly(the instructor went over the contents of the flight with me. They will not allow you to fly without an instructor until you fly the check flight in front of one of there instructors.

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

I don't know Al, I think you're being harsh! The two guys I mentioned in my first post; the older guy brought his boss to the field 6 weeks ago and let him fly the Kadet on the buddy cord. After several flights (no solo take off or landings) the boss goes out and buys another member's Funtana. He gets the LHSO to put a 72 in it, along with the radio gear and brings it to the field. He fired up the engine, made his first ever take off across the runway, pulls up sharp before he gets off the asphalt (50'), pulls a hard loop and lands in the parking area behind him. Total flight time on a nice plane - around 5 seconds. Fortunately this was early on a Saturday morning and only the two of them were at the field. The "instructor" told our president about the incident but didn't want anything said to his boss for fear of repercussion. At the risk of sounding too PC or beaurocratic I'd call this a near miss. A couple of hours later and he'd have gotten a car at best or person at worse.

I agree that the flight sims are great. I learned a lot with G2 and am continuing to learn with Aerofly. G2 got me comfortable much quicker than would have happened had I only flown at the field. We had one fellow show up last year with an LT40 and considerable simulator time. One of our ace pilots set up the buddy box and took off. After takeoff he gave control to the new guy who made several very, very smooth turns, a loop, a couple of rolls, several low, slow passes down the runway and landed. His second flight on the buddy box he taxied up and down the runway at increasing speeds, took off and soloed! Amazing. However, there's a downside - one guy showed up with considerable G2 experience and started to take off with all his control surfaces operating in the opposite directions.

The next-to-last thing I want is to over-kill anything. The last thing I want is for someone to get hurt because I did nothing.

Tim

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

Eagle Al... I appreciate your point now hear mine. In 26 years of flying R/C in four clubs, I've been hit twice in the legs by out of control planes, had my car damaged by one, been struck by an improperly installed prop, been shot down and mid-aired four or five times. And that was before the influx of new pilots. For you to say the best way to learn is on a simulator is irresponsible even in your footloose world. When have these discussions about rules we're mainly focusing on safety and there are no safety simulators.

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

Eagle Al - I think you are right in some aspects and totally oblivious to some aspects.
I hear what you are saying about the flight sims. They are a great tool but you should know that from your forty years of flying "REAL" planes that you just cant simulate some things.
I was really appalled by your comments about "toy planes". To some of us that toy cost a lot of money and can cause severe damage to us and the ones around us if flown incorrectly. I began flying with the help and encouragement of aggie84 and the RC club that he is a member of. I to am a member there and have and would like to feel that I am safe to take my two baby girls with me to fly and not have to worry that there health or life could be at risk because some one is there flying an aircraft that they are not qualified to fly.
The point that I am trying to make is that when I crash my plane on my flight sim a few seconds later it is back in the air flying again without the expensive repair or replacement of things that could happen to my "TOY" plane if I were to crash it. The plane would be the least of my worries if for some reason I lost control or had an accident and were to hit someone. These planes may be toys in your eyes but go ahead and stand there and let me bring my plane in and smack you upside the head with it and then will see what damage these so called toys can inflict.

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

Eagle Al- A bit on the harsh side don't you think- Besides (us people) get it!! Have spent many years flying these toys.. I myself am self taught- I designed, built and flew my first RC plane (glider) It was such a poor flyer and I had to put tools on the nose to make it balance. Anyway-- You as a test pilot followed rules that are written with blood. In some respects so do we..

Basic safety in not an option its a requirement- But as I stated in my first post strict rules may not be the answer here. Yes we know aviation history that's not the issue and this is not the 1900's. You don't test a new aircraft with someone that has never piloted an aircraft before. You know that...(or you should) It takes practice and very very strict rules....

We don't have those kind of rules and we don't want them. But we have to have ways to protect people and property from other people and their lawyers. And in the end this still has to be fun so finding a balance can be difficult but it's possible..

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

Did your flight instructor teach you this- Did he just yelled it to you from the tarmac after he showed you how to throttle the engine.
The image of this makes me smile.......

P.S. I don't mind the term TOY. But Dangerious Toy is more accurate..

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

I agree with Eagle Al, for the most part. However, I think the phrase "toy airplane" was not quite correct. Some of these planes can move far faster than 50 miles per hour, and they also can be quite heavy. Still, I don't think that new R/C pilots should have to go to an R/C aircraft college for six years, learning everything there ever was to know about these aircraft in seemingly endless lectures, before ever being allowed to see a plane. Then, before letting them set foot on the field, force them to pass a 1000 page written exam on the flight characteristics of remote control aircraft. If you FORCE this kind of training on everyone and anyone who WANTS to fly then I think the people over in the AMA forum might just be right, this hobby won't have long to live.

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

A toy is something you wind up and it rolls along the ground making noise. These models are not toys but I have seen to many people treat them as such. I have discontinued making comments to others about some individuals who behave in a unprofessional manner when they play with there toys. Now I just pack up my model and leave the flying site.
It has been my experience after meeting two former military pilots, one Navy and one Air Force that they are total professionals when it comes to RC models. These individuals both were flying turbine powered aircaft. There models and flying skills were exceptional. There attitude torward this hobby were a direct reflection of there love of flight and military background. They were not like the former pilot/test pilot in there opinions of this sport.

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

Audie- Where did that load of manure come from? 6 years rc college and 1000 pg test?? Where in the heck did that come from? You've been halucinating or something I don't know what. Do you want to stand on the runway and we'll let all of the untrained "people" take off toward you? Might actually be the safest place as most of them wouldn't know how to hit you. A few weeks of training isn't all that bad. Heck, you probably went to school for a couple of weeks. :D

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

I am one of those people. I found disasters, and I found success. And when I finally found the success, it felt so much sweeter. I never endangered anyone, or anything. Ok, maybe a plane or two, but thats it.

I avoided clubs because I didn't want to wait in line to fly. I didn't want to deal with the mini-socialist regimes. I get enough of the small group politics here at work. I want to fly to get away from everything.

Let the AMA govern the clubs, who cares, that doesn't affect me. If I wanted to fly at a club, I would be perfectly willing to be checked out. Its for the benefit of the others close by. I would expect people flying near me to have a minimum competence. Just like I expect everyone on the highway to have a minimum competence.

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

This is an interesting thread... but i think a great way to discourage people from joining the hobby is to call them a problem when they are just starting out.

i haven't been in rc very long but heres my opinion anyway... if you see a new person having trouble flying or about to fly.. go give them a hand instead of sitting doing nothing and watching them crash. maybe they didn't ask for help cuz they are shy or just didn't realize quite what they were getting into with this hobby. then if they still dont want help or dont care, that gives you the green light to warn everyone around and watch what happens.

but what do i know... i'm a noob here too.

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

Along with Eagle views are mine. I come from a career as a military pilot. Anybody who is in the area when an rc plane is in the air or not can get killed hurt mamed, or whatever. Many have the misconception these are toys and whatever happens, happens! You need to teach them that this is serious "&&it" but at the same time they can have fun. Airfields are not playgrounds but many think they can bring their kids out and let them run all over the darn place.

RE: New Pilots - A Growing "Problem"
 

ScienceisCool makes a point that I'm trying to address with the training. When I was just starting out there were three very accomplished, very very willing pilots there to help me. However I was "shy and didn't quite realize..." and, while I did ask for help, or they may have volunteered to help, at first, after a few flights (too few) I quit asking because I didn't want to be a bother. They quit trying because they didn't want to nag or impose. I was on the edge of being able to successfully solo and did, but very uncomfortably. If I'd have had a regimented program to get signed off and if they'd have had a structured way to keep me on the buddy box, I as a new pilot would have been more comfortable when I soloed for the first time.

Reading the responses from those that have been through a structured training program leads me to believe that they're thankful for the existence of the program.

btw FighterBird - I hate it that you've never found clubs to be to your liking. The friends I've made at the field are great. I go up there more often than not just to hang out and talk. Sometimes I forget my plane.