Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

My question is whether there is a beginner plane that uses ailerons, not just elevators and rudder? I have never flown before, but I have flown in a simulator. From the videos I see, it looks like I might get really bored quick with a plane that doesn't have ailerons. Am I way off base here? Anyone with experience in this?

Any comments will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Greg

RE: Ailerons on biginner plane??
 

four channel trainers are very common. Go to tower hobbies and look at any of the .40 sized glow trainers--most of them have ailerons.

RE: Ailerons on biginner plane??
 

I have Sig Kadet LT-40 which I am learning to fly on. It has elevator, rudder, and ailerons. I have hooked it up with an OS-46 AX engine and it flies great! If I fly it over 1/3 throttle it wants to climb, so I have plenty of power to get me out of tight spots. I do recommend, however, that you join an AMA affiliated club and use an instructor with a buddy box to instruct you.

RE: Ailerons on biginner plane??
 

If you are new to the hobby as you have indicated I strongly urge you to locate a LHS (local hobby shop) and find a local club. Then visit one or more of these clubs and find one that you like and just visit with the people and the instructors there. They will also be able to pass on a wealth of information that will help in your area such as they type (brand) of equipment favored in that area. This will aid in your choice of radios so that you will be able to "buddy box" with an instructor until ready to solo. This can be a very expensive hobby if you don't use an instructor, it is expensive enough with one but a lot of fun. :)

On the subject of aileron planes, almost everyone flying glow engine planes these days begins with a 4 channel plane which includes aileron control plus rudder, elevator and throttle. The rudder will also control the nose or tail steering.


BTW - I notice that you have been in the electric forums. Did you want this aileron plane to be glow or electric?

Welcome to the hobby and the insanity we all love. :D

RE: Ailerons on biginner plane??
 

I was really wanting to stick to electrics, and mostly park flyers. I have private access to a large field to fly in, but it is only about 15 acres. Any electric park flyer start planes you could recommend?

RE: Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

There will be others to help you shortly. Electric and park flyers are not within my knowledge range well enough to advise. Good luck. But the answer is "YES", there are small elec's with ailerons.

RE: Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

Most electrics that are trainers and park flyers are very light, and flimsy. Most also need almost dead calm to fly in because of the low power and light weight. IF you are serious about the hobby I would suggest a 40 size glow powered trainer. They weigh around 5-6 lbs. and have good power and can fly in 10-15 km. winds. The radios that come with park flyer type planes have limited range and aren't buddy box compatible. Trying to go inexpensive when starting in this hobby usually ends up with frustrating results and disappointing performance. Best to find a nearby RC club and go visit them on the weekend. [8D]

RE: Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

<<Trying to go inexpensive when starting in this hobby usually ends up with frustrating results and disappointing performance.>>

Truer, more profound words were NEVER spoken. As with anything worthwhile, this endeavor is not for cheapskates.

Of course, some folks simply prefer electric power. And certain electric set-ups are indeed as powerful as glow. The problem with that is, e-power that is comparable to glow costs three times as much as glow. That's why I'm sticking with glow for now; mainly because I have a pair of $250 chargers that have amazing capabilities- EXCEPT with the new battery tchnology.

I figure that, in another ten or so years, battery technology will be where it needs to be to make USABLE e-power affordable for the masses...:D

RE: Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

the problem I have is that I don't know how serious I am going to get into this hobby, and do not want to dump a bunch of money into something that will just sit in my basement and collect dust. I also wanted to stay with electrics because someone told me that glow was messy. Any thoughts on this?

One more question. I have a 6 year old son that is also wanting to try this hobby. How old should he be before I let him try?

Guess I am just in a pickle as to whether to bite the bullet. ;)

RE: Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

If you purchase an under powered plane that you constantly have to fight just to keep in the air that also quickly runs out it's battery charge I can guarantee you won't be around long. If you buy a glow plane trainer and don't seek proper training I can virtually guarantee a similar fate there too as you will most likely quickly crash it.
As stated before, your best bet is with a local club with an instructor. SOME clubs have training planes and a program where you can fly their planes for a few flights to see if you like it. I can not tell you if there is such a club in your area. Check with your local hobby shop.

6 years olds, I don't know. Seems to me that their attention span would be too short to do well. That being said, they are all individuals too. Don't push it on him by any means if it is not his idea. Does he really have the eye/hand coordination that this will require? Difficult for you to judge since you have not been trained yet yourself. Some young kids can be amazing though.

To be double-double-redundant, go check out what the hobby is really all about at a local club field and find some of your answers there too, We'll keep trying to help though.
We would like to see you in the hobby but I'm not going to tell you that learning is instant or easy(with a few exceptions). It is fun though. It is a matter of learning a new skill set

RE: Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

I am a little confused as to why no one is recommending just buying a aerobird or t-hawk and flying it. That is what I was looking at and that is what most other threads recommends. I am just concerned that I will get bored with it. Maybe this is a good thing to buy, just to see if I want to put the money into something more.

Any comments?

Greg

RE: Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

"buying a aerobird or t-hawk and flying it. That is what I was looking at and that is what most other threads"

I agree, these would bore me (and most of the rest of us in this forum) to tears in less than 10 minutes. That is what we are trying to tell you. And some of our planes would bore many of the flyers in the jet forum too.

This is my opinion.

RE: Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

Re: Electric trainer parkflyers

I've had a blast learning to fly on a Telemaster, and the design has been around for DECADES. Recently, I had a chance to watch (and, for a brief few minutes, fly) Hobby Lobby's new MINI telemaster, a dead on half size ELECTRIC copy of the .40 sized Telemaster that has taught so many.

It's an inexpensive ($29) kit, and hobby lobby has a complete package which includes radio, servos, wheels, the whole works...everything you need to fly, for $370. You can read more at http://www.hobby-lobby.com/telemaster-mini.htm

Personally, I can't immagine a better way to start in your situation. Zillions of beginners have successfully built and flown a Telemaster as their first plane, and the mini flies very much like its big brother, but is easily small enough to fly in a smaller field. And the radio, servos, and other radio gear will serve you for most other planes you want to get into, so they aren't 'lost' money once you outgrow the Telemaster. One note...in keeping with your original question, the mini telemaster does NOT have ailerons, though several have added ailerons to the kit and claim it's relatively easy (the one I flew had some added).

Re: Glow = messy

I currently own one glow plane and two electrics, so I see an argument on both sides:

Imle, it depends on how you define 'messy'. Does a glow motor spray oil and slime on the side of your plane? Yes, absolutely. But we're talking 5 minutes and some windex to clean up.

If, however, you think of "messy" in terms of how "messy" or cluttered does the box have to be...electric is far more 'messy' imo. Charger, cables, extra battery pack(s), then I have to stand around between flights while charging (for anywhere from 10 minutes to hours, depending)...and all that stuff NEVER seems to go box into the tool box neatly.

Of course, back on the pro-electric side, you CAN just grab a plane, a Tx, and a couple of charged LiPols, and go fly.

Then again...an electric plane just doesn't sound right, ya know? :)

Anywho...hope some of this helps. By all means, I'd certinly give the mini telemaster a look. Very forgiving airplane, one of the most popular and well used trainers ever built, and a $350 to get flying, not expensive at all.

RE: Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

Even though you seem to be sold on electric, listen to Bruce. He's trying to tell you that the inexpensive electrics produced for sale to prospective newcomers such as yourself are underpowered, fragile slugs designed to separate you from a hundred dollar bill. If they fly at all, so much the better...

The people who recommend these, or tell you that they fly fine, for the most part have never flown glow and therefore have nothing to compare.

That's the bad news. The good news is that these things DO fly, after a fashion (in calm conditions, which are VERY rare), and can spark your interest sufficiently to compel you to get a real R/C model plane.

I'll reiterate the advice to visit a club. All the keyboard advice in the world can not take the place of putting eyeballs on the stuff and seeing it perform. And, ditto the caveat about securing an instructor. The odds of you teaching yourself to fly without crashing are slim to none.

RE: Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

As gboulton mentioned, "Charger, cables, extra battery pack(s), then I have to stand around between flights while charging (for anywhere from 10 minutes to hours, depending)...and all that stuff NEVER seems to go box into the tool box neatly. "< Say you really want to go electric. That means the battery pack in the plane has to run the motor as well as the receiver. You might get 8 minutes out of the battery pack before the prop quits turning. Now you land. Then do you pull the pack and plunk it on a quick charger? Even then you are proably looking at about 1/2 hour before its charged up again. Or you can buy spare packs and just replace them in between flights. Better make sure that they are all charged up the night before you go flying. A standard training day at our club consists of six 10 minute air time flights. After that the Tx. batterys may be getting low. To do this on e power requires 6 battery packs or a combination of a few packs, a good charger, and an organized recharging system in between flights. Thats provided that there is 110 volt power at your field or a good 12 volt source. Too much trouble for me to bother with. With glow fuel you just refill after you land and you are good to go again. As you might guess, my opinion is that I think glow power is the way to go for training. Age wise, I started teaching my son when he was 8 and he flys all my planes just fine. The interest has to be there and the attitude that they want to see the plane keep flying. Not like some of the kids attitudes that "it would look cool to see it crash!". What also helps is that if your son can also bring a friend out to the field and they can take turns flying. It gives both the kids a common ground to talk about after so to speak. [8D]

RE: Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

As Fastsky mentioned the initial training days of approx 6 flights of intense flying and your nerves may be pretty well on edge and you will be ready to call it a day. As you get better, the batteries used in glow planes can typically be "fast charged" at the field and you can extend you flying day if you desire.

Nobody is saying DON"T go electric, I'm just trying to inform you of what limitations I see.

RE: Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

Yes, many. I've only skimmed through the answers so far, but I do see a familiar pattern emerging. Many people are trying to steer you away from electric. Keep in mind that this particular beginner forum is inhabited mostly by people who fly glow. You are seeing this bias. It is true, glow planes require cleaning. The oil from the fuel does not burn completely, and depending on where the muffler points, you may have some slime to clean off. The good news is that in reality, the plane can be cleaned in less than 2 minutes with a bottle of cleaner (I use Simple Green) and some paper towels or rags. For me it's not a big deal.
Every kid is different. Put him on a simulator on the computer and see how he does. I've seen kids at this age flying on their own, with an adult standing nearby.
I say bite it. R/C planes are great fun. It will be a great activity for you and your son.

Now on to the basic question, electric or glow. I must say, I am clearly in the glow camp. I've got 25+ engines and 6 flyable planes. However, I will never attempt to steer someone who is interested in electrics toward glow. Electrics can be a great way to start flying. They are cleaner, quieter, simpler to operate, and because they are typically smaller, fly slower and are therefore easier to learn with. So, I say if you're interested in electrics to start with then go electric. However, if your only objection to glow is that someone told you they are messy, go check them out before deciding.

Next issue, ailreons or not? People who have never flown without ailerons will try to convince you that it's boring. I learned with a .15 size 3 channel glow plane. I can tell you that this was far from boring. Other than not being able to roll around the axis of the plane, there was little that I couldn't do with this thing. The most recent plane I purchased was a GWS Slow Stick, a 3 channel electric. I bought this because it was a small, slow, and simple to fly plane. Once it's together I will be able to take it to the street and fly. I've seen video of someone doing 3D stuff with this plane.

So, if you want to go electric, no problem. Get yourself a good, basic plane, the Slow stick is one example, 3 battery packs, a field charger that can charge 2 packs at once, such as the Hobbico Quick Field Charger Mark II, a basic 4 channel radio, and have yourself a ball. Oh, and you should also find someone to help you learn. You'll get flying faster, and spend less (perhaps no) time repairing.

RE: Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

If you want to go electric and you are going to attempt it alone. The applicable choice is narrowed down quite a bit. Among the very best is the GWS Slow Stick. This airplane is capable of actually teaching you something and allowing you to progress. All those 'V" tailed overweight clones are very poor flyers and whats worse because they operate without proper 'V' tail mixing they fly very differently than any other more conventional airplane. Many of that variety could be more accurately only be called 'somewhat guided' airplanes.

John

RE: Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

Interesting, we were typing up posts recommending the same plane at the same time. :D

RE: Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

Cool

You know Piper with the hundreds of thousands of these so called park flyers flooding the market its amazing how so few are capable of actually allowing the fulfillment of the buyers dream.


John[8D]

RE: Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

Yup, it's kind of sad. I think it's the difference between a company that wants to stay in it for the long run, selling hobby products, versus one that just wants to make a buck, selling toys. Unfortunately, it's hard for beginners to tell the difference.

RE: Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

I dunno; Horizon sells their share of overweight, underpowered slugs. I imagine The Empire does too.

RE: Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

Overweight/underpowered is a highly subjective thing. I've seen recent comments that a .60 size engine is inadequate for a .60 size plane. I do not agree with the people who assert that trainer planes should be equiped with engines that allow 70 degree climbouts "to help get them out of trouble". Better that they learn on a moderately powered plane that planes can fly just fine when airspeed and altitude are properly managed. Besides, I was commenting on the companies that make the products, not those who sell them. Anyway, this thread is about helping someone decide on what kind of plane to begin with.

RE: Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

Interestingly enough, just got back from the field, flew an electric and a glow plane today...remembering this post, I made a point of noticing what I felt to be the pros and cons of each, from a newbie's point of view:

Glow Plane Pros
1) None of the annoying standing around charging stuff
2) Bottle of fuel and a chicken stick, and we can go flying.
3) Little to no wait between flights
4) Longer flights
5) Subjectively, I think they sound cooler.

Glow Plane Cons
1) Wipe wipe wipe spray wipe spray spray wipe wipe
2) The freakin muffler is hot, dummy. One day I'll learn that, when refueling, the muffler is NOT the thing to use to hold the plane steady
3) *sigh* Old glow motors can be such a pain to start when warm or flooded...unless of course I get a battery, starter, etc etc...which now means more expense/stuff to carry
4) Dangit, where did I lay my chicken stick/starter/glow driver/fuel/whatever?
5) Man, I hate tossing these rubber bands after only a day's worth of flying.

Electric Pros
1) Turn on a switch, hit the throttle, here we go. No sticks, starters, glow drivers, etc
2) None of that wipe spray wipe stuff
3) Nice smooth throttle response, every time, all the time
4) I don't like how much power this plane has...plug in a different battery, look Ma..More/Less/Longer power, whatever I want.

Electric Cons
1) Decent batteries (by which I mean LiPols) are EXPENSIVE, and cheap batters (NiCads) are HEAVY
2) By the time I bought the motor, motor controller, and bettery, I spent as much or more on this powerplant as I would have on an equivalent glow motor
3) Well, that was a fun 7 minutes of flying...excuse me while I go charge the battery...
4) Speaking of which, have you SEEN the price of decent field chargers...especially for LiPols???
5) (Again subjective) I'm a computer-nerd for a living...i spend all day arguing with electrical stuff...last thing I want is a hobby that forces me to argue with more electrical stuff.

=======================

Now, for grins and giggles, also thinking of this post, I decided to fly my electric on rudder and elevator only one flight...just to offer a newbie's perspectiv n the differences.

1) When I tell it to turn, it bloody well turns...right then. This can be a good or a bad thing, depending.
2) Maintaining altitude and airspeed in a turn was, for me, much more difficult without ailerons. I SUSPECT this is partly due to the aerodynamics of the task, and partly due to me inexperience flying this way
3) Ailerons are easy to learn, imo...good rudder control is much more difficult. Of course, it's a GOOD thing (if not easy) to learn imo, because...
4) In difficult situations (say, a crosswind landing) rudder is heap big friend.


Personally, I would GUESS (and this is JUST a guess...others with more experience can speak with more authority) that LEARNING to fly rudder only would be more difficult, in terms of making smooth and clean turns. it's CERTAINLY more difficult, imo, to line up an approach for landing. As a result, I would be inclined to think that this combination of factors would make the new pilot more likely to get the plane in trouble....trouble from which, without ailerons, even an experienced pilot might have difficulty recovering.

Finally, as for the age of your son and flying...my 6 yr old daughter can already tell you about the aerodynamic principles of lift and thrust, and flies a little wal mart toy plane with some level of authority. As stated above..I think it simply depends ont he child. If he/she shows a real interest in LEARNING HOW PLANES WORK, and not just "I wanna play with daddy's toy" then I'd say knock yourself out. Take him to the field, and let him learn along with you, and let him fly when a qualified instructor thinks he's ready.

============

Whew...there's my novel for the week...sorry to be so wordy, guys. :)

RE: Ailerons on beginner plane??
 

Interesting observations. A few comments.

It's not at all difficult to learn to make good turns with rudder and elevator only. Remember, there is usually a difference between planes with ailerons and those designed with rudder only. Trying to fly an aileron plane with just rudder will be a bit different. And, as one who learned on a plane without ailerons, I don't think it was any harder.

A decent field charger, that does Lipos, can be had for less than $50 (about the cost of 3 gallons of fuel).

Rubber bands can be recycled (hopefully a holy war on whether this should or shouldn't be done won't start.