Help for a wannabe and son
 

Howdy folks,

first off a thanks to this "family", been reading your posts now for days (no joke) and your feedback is the reason I'm gonna lay yet another newbie thread on you.
My older son (5yr) is fascinated by "remote planes" and basically wants me to buy that cool-looking ducted fan MiG... right. I've been enamored with the sport for, oh, 15 years? And of course, did it all the wrong way. Here's my pitiful history:

Quite a few years ago I had built an all-wood glider. I was a teenager then, and impatience was strong. Short story: I botched the plane together. But: it actually would have flown, had it not been for a misinterpretation of the effect the elevator throw has: I was convinced that elevator-up meant the nose goes down. I couldn't figure out why, when I'd PULL on the stick (elevator down) the dang plan kept burrying it's nose in the ground. Ok, brief temperamental interlude (remmeber I was a teen) and the plan was on more.
My second attempt was to get a Groupner ARF electric motor glider. Much smarter. Except I was still impatient. Maidenflight with a few trees strewn liberally about, and a school's soccer stadium close by -- with tall, metal floodlight masts.
On one gentle bank I misjudged the distance to the masts and the glider gently wrapped its wing around the immovable steel pole.
Good thing that it was an ARF - I was able to buy a replacement wing quickly.
Second attempt was in an area about 500 feet wide, a mile long, bordered by trees. And a creek in the middle. In that lovely area, and on that day, wind was prevalent but I figured I'd be fine.
Well, as soon as the glider got 30 feet high, a gust flipped it upside down and it spiralled - into the creek, where to my surprise the motor kept running, and the plane was turning lazy circles.
It dried out well enough, a marvel of modern engineering.
It's last flight was on a beautiful summer evening, 9ish PM. Light wind. So I pitch it into the wind, and it's great.
But like a moron, I didn't realize that it's a GLIDER, ie, once the initial few minutes of motor are gone, I have no power.
The plane is like 150feet up, and I had it go up pretty much above me - not so smart: the wind soon takes the plane with it, gently, but farther and farther away, until, with increasing twilight, I can't see whether the plan is pointing toward me or not. Not much of a flyer, it didn't occur to me to try a slow turn - I panicked and used full throws and the plane just flipped and tumbled.
At some point I sighed, and gave up. Turn off the radio, and followed the plane.
I found it 5 min later. It had burried itself in a field, not 50 yards away from farmers working it. What a sad sight. I think one wing was still recognizable, and so was part of the tail.

Back to today:
I want to get started and have a couple ideas: I want an ARF or RTF. I want electric. I want a rig that is affordable, and lets me grow a little. Not interested in 3D or acrobatics, or scale. Just want to fly. Have logged WAY to many hours on a sim (A-10, A-10 Cuba) that has decent flight dynamics, I am told. These days I fly with the mouse and still kill ;) Just got the FMS sim, too.

From your posts, it looks like I should go with
- a gentle trainer (high wings, slow flight)
- foam
- 6ch computer radio
- find a club/trainer

Here my questions and concerns:
- most trainers seem to come with Rudder/Elev/Throttle. Having witnessed the effect of wind from the side, I am stuck on thinking my trainer should have ailerons, too. Reasonable? Too much for starters? Thoughts?
- I initially looked at kits (EasyStar, NexStar, SuperStar) because I get all I need under 250ish. Some recommend getting a 150-200 radio - leaving me with 50 for a plane.
- as you can tell from the above, getting a feel for how far the plane is with respect to them plane grabbers is something I yet have to learn. Is this pure experience? Or maybe avoidance might be better...
- how do you gauge whether the wind is too much? I have no idea how to tell whether I have 5mph or 20 mph winds.
- I live in Berkeley, CA, and am looking for someone to coach me - who's close by. Any of you out here?
- I *think* a powered trainer is th eway to go because it can pull me out of bad approaches - which a glider won't. What do you think?

So if you had to recommend a plane/radio combo, what would you give to a novice? Why?

Can't wait to read your feedback - thanks a bunch!

-sven

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

If I may ignoring your criteria for a minute, here's my recommendation:

Hobbico Avistar ($99.99) - The Hobbico line, with the exception of the Nextstar, is a fine series of trainer planes. The Avistar goes together easily and flys well. It also looks pretty good.

OS .46AX ($109.99) - There are cheaper engines around, but few better. This engine will last you through several planes.

Hitec Flash 5X ($160) - A great beginner's computer radio. All the bells and whistles you will need for a long time.

I realize this seems like a big investment, but the radio and engine will last through several planes and (with proper care) many years of happy R/C flying.

Check the AMA club locator on their site [link]http://www.modelaircraft.org/[/link] for local clubs in your area. Most clubs have instructors available for free (club membership usually required).

Good luck, and keep us posted.

Dr.1

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

All those questions you ask can better be answered 1 on 1 by visiting a club and then making sure you get their help learning. Sure you can do it your self but those questions will still be there, it isn't worth the hassel, pain and expence. I know --- I did it many years ago and still wish I could have had the help you folks have today.

I agree with driver except that I like the Midwest Aerobat for a plane -- but thats me. The engine is great and with just a little experience with the Hitec it is a good system as far as I know. I use Futaba when I can.

I think the main thing is to get some assistance now so you will be better able to help your son, if you are crashing all the time, he isn't going to stick with you, I know from experience.
ENJOY !!! RED

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

Hi Sven and welcome to RCU!

Long post, lots to digest. To begin with, have you set a budget? You said you want to begin with electric. Is your choice of electrics based on cost, quiet flight, being able to fly in smaller fields, because you think they are easier, or just because you like the idea of electrics? Electrics are a great choice, many people fly electrics and love them. Something you'll discover is that this forum tends to have more people who have glow planes, so it's not uncommon for people to recommend glow trainers, even when people say they want electrics. What we've often seen is that a person hasn't considered all the options, so getting different opinions helps them understand the choices. If you haven't had a chance to see anyone , I encourage you to find some of the local clubs and take a look.

Only after you've chosen what kind and size plane you want to fly should you try to narrow down your radio choice. Also, in spite of the trend you see here toward recommending more and more expensive radios, a 6 channel radio is not a "must have". Many people have learned on less expensive radios, and have continued to enjoy the hobby without "jonesing" the more expensive radios.

So, go see some of the local flying and then check back in with your thoughts.

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

Red head and Dr.1 --
thanks for the replies. Of course, speaking with a human being will be preferrable - but until I get to a club, you'se guys are all I got! Where's the love?! The long patient posts? ;) I am looking for opinions, basically, since I am in the data-gathering-stage. I signed up with AMA, and am contacting "local" clubs. Was hoping there was someone in my area on these forums to hook up with.

Too true about the sun watching dad only slaming the plane in the ground. Gotta avoid that.

Checked out the aerobat and at least the review got me drooling. The avistar sounds like it's a notch up and has more room for growth.
The reco to get a 5/6ch radio makes sense - thanks.

As I said I downloaded the FMS sim and took a few spins. Not sure how accurate this sim is, but two things I noticed: I really like having ailerons to upright the plane, and boy won't I take my first flights without buddy-cord, and no innocent passers-by in close vicinity. As one commercial said (back in, like, 1999), "... because in life, there is not reset button."
Any other recos RE sims?

Appreciate the plane suggestion - but I really want to stay away from glow. Is it silly to want an electric trainer? The glow->electric conversion kit almost doubles the price...
Would you recommend against getting any used equipment?

Thanks for your feedback!

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

Piper_chuck - thanks for the post.

> have you set a budget?
I'd like to top out at 250. Might be a little low...

> You said you want to begin with electric. Is your choice of electrics based on cost, quiet flight, being able to fly in
> smaller fields, because you think they are easier, or just because you like the idea of electrics?
Hmmm. For one, I don't like the stink. Or the fluids to mess with. More moving parts, too. For a trainer, I'd prefer quieter flight. Once I get into scale, I probably can't avoid the 4stroke glows. In this day of LiPo and brushless etc, I think it's a fine alternative, if I can make it so.

> Only after you've chosen what kind and size plane you want to fly
Well - err. a docile trainer would be good. I'll take your input, and check them out in the field.

> should you try to narrow down your radio choice.
Make sense - don't HAVE to have more than 4 channels. But if it's true that the cost difference between a 4ch and a 5/6ch is small (which seems to be between 0-50$), and if I should go with spearate radio/plane, then why not. My son is, at 5, much less interested in taking off and landing than in crashing the plane (boy, did we ever go through the video section...) and gimmicks such as releasing a parachute with doll from the plane...

> learned on less expensive radios, and have continued to enjoy the hobby without "jonesing" the more expensive radios.
Totally hear that, and my wife sends a hug ;)

All said - I want to make a reasonable decision based on needs/purpose. All your feedback helps - really.

Thanks a bunch!

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

Understand. Many people don't like the noise and mess of glow planes. Not sure if you've discovered this yet, but the electric crowd uses the term "slimers" when talking about glow. Personally, I love glow engines, I've got 35-40 of the things, but I understand the attraction to electrics too. Don't feel you're going to have to "go glow" when you get to the point of building scale planes, but be prepared for big $ on motors and batteries.

Ok, on to some recommendations. Below is a list I posted in another thread this morning. It's based on the GWS Slow Stick. It's a slow, stable, inexpensive starter plane. It's actually only 3 channels, but it still flies well. The biggest limitation to the Slow Stick is that it won't handle strong winds. There are alternatives for many of the components below. For example, you could go with a 6 channel computer radio, some other 4 channel (Futaba has a new 4 channel computer radio), or even an 8 or 9 channel. You could also choose Li-poly batteries and a more expensive, and more versitile charger. I've even seen video of someone doing 3D with a brushless motor equiped Slow Stick.

Radio: Futaba Skysport 4YF 2 S3001 $120 + $20 gift certificate
Plane: GWS Slow stick $35
Batteries: $40
Charger: $30
Speed control: $30
Misc (props, tools, etc): $50

Order 1:
Radio $120
Speed cntl $ 30
Shipping $ 8
Discount -$ 15
Total $143

Order 2:
Plane $ 35
Batteries $ 40
Misc $ 50
Charger $ 30
Gift cert -$ 20
Discount -$ 15
Shipping $ 8
Total $128

Total startup cost $271

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

Hello all,

so I am furiously reading various threads here on SuperStar EP, etc. As I said, still in the info gathering stage. Found an instructor at the local field, but of course NOW we got rain here in the Bay Area. Sigh.

Here's is my current "knowledge" - feel free to correct/chime in.

- radio: if I can swing it, should go with a computer 5/6 channel. leaves room to grow, and lets me store settings for different planes. Futaba seems to be a well-loved brand, and the one I am looking at (6EXAS) gets glowing reviews from owners. The kit comes with 4 standard servos, for 179 at towerhobbies.

- servos: after confusing myself with the various specs, it seems that 2 criteria determine choice: size and torque. For a trainer, the 44 oz/in at 4.8V of the standard servos are more than enough. I still haven't found any post/site that details how to determine just what kind of torque you need for what kind of plane. Looking at SSEP hopups, noone mentioned having to change out servos, so I am assuming that with a power train upgrade the plane is still fine with those basic servos. When looking at the difference in speeds between servos, and whether I need digital or not, the answer seems to be that when starting out, I don't really care about the precision or fast attack speed of a servo. Maybe when I am ready to fly jets or acrobatics, I'd need faster servos - not for now. So, getting basic servos is A-OK.

- from various posts I get the feeling that simple powertrain improvements for ~50 bucks make the SSEP FLY - note to self: if the wallet is not empty, get the endo 16, different prop, gearbox, pinion.

- plane: The more I look, the more I see (in the forums here) stunning feedback on the SSEP. Well built, ARF, complete kit, docile qualities, room to grow (hopups) seem to make this almost the ideal choice, no? How about the Duraplane Aerobat? I'd have to convert it to electric because I am stuck on "No glow" for now. I love the fact that the Aerobat is nearly indestructible. Doing the math: kit $60; motor ~ 50, ESC 30-50, battery 50-80 - that puts it beyond the SSEP kit (109). And I learned one thing from the people here (and watching the videos - see that one with a guy trowing his ducted Jet into the ground?): I'll only attempt to fly with a buddy who knows his/her stuff. So maybe the SSEP is just fine for me.

- sims: I admit: I like sims. I also understand that they're only a mediocre proxy for the real thing. If nothing else, a sim will help teach me how to operate the controls, especially when the plane is coming at me. Since I am ona budget, I won't be able to swing the 200$ for the RealFlight sim. Luckily there is FMS and others (http://n.ethz.ch/student/mmoeller/fms/index_e.html). I can even build or buy a PIC-Serial cable to hook up my radio as a "joystick".

So my tentative shopping list is:
- Hobbico Superstar EP/ailerons (109)
- Futaba 6EXAS + servos (179)
- charger???
- extra props, and ??? (what am I missing?)

Here some questions I am still digging for answers on:
- replacing the NiCD 2100mah 7 cell stock pack with a LiPo 2cell pack seems to yield 7.4V whereas stock brings 8.4V. What does this mean in terms of getting full engine power? Didn't see anyone having problems, but I am curious.
- chargers - how to by the right charger? Does it make sense to go with a lowend 6/7 cell cahrger for starters, and when I know I want to go with LiPo etc, then upgrade? Decent chargers seem to clock in at 100$ plus. Insight appreciated.
- anyone have experience with the TowerHobby 6ch computer radio (http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...1p?&I=LZ2242**)? At 50 bucks less, I wonder whether I should seriously look into that.
- Confusion about the Futabas:
1. they have the 6YG and the 6EXAS with 4 S3004 servos each. My brain is till numb - can't tell what I am getting for the extra $30 with the 6EXAS
2. The 6EXAS comes with 2 servo pack choices - 3 micros, or 4 standard. A review on SportAviator.com (http://www.masportaviator.com/ah.asp...&ID=65&index=3) argues for weight reduction to gain performance. The micros are half the weight and would save 1.5oz... sigh.

That's all for now -
later.
sven

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

Okay, let me help you out with the 6YG/6EXAS problem. The difference between them is substantial, and depending on your budget, will affect what you will need to buy for other planes later. I'll try to make this short and simple:
6YG. Fully manual radio.
It has no memory or preprogrammed mixing
It does have aileron and elevator dual rates(lets you choose between lots of control movement or little control movement at the flip of a switch) and servo reversing(lets you decide which way the servo will move when you move a control on the transmitter). It has a couple of other things, but nothing you need to worry about now

6EXAS. Computer radio.
Has 6 model memory(stores trim settings and other set up items)
FM/PCM capability(FM uses an analog signal, PCM uses signal pulses on a carrier frequency, which is less likely to get RF interference hits than FM)
Programmable mixing(mixes two or more channels together for a preset action)
Servo Reversing
End Point Adjustment(lets you set how far the servo will move when a stick is maxed out)
Dual Rate and Exponential Curve(expo lets you select how much control movement there is with little stick movement and with lots of stick movement)
It has a few other things you don't need to worry about yet

Hope that helps. My recommendation would be to stick with the 3004 servos. Mini and micro servos aren't needed for a plane the size you are looking at. Also, micro servos use a different connector than mini and standard servos, meaning you would need to get adapters or a micro receiver.
One other thought. Some speed controllers have a power outlet for the receiver. If your plane has one of these, you could save the weight of the receiver' battery pack. Just a thought

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

Hydro junkie - THANKS.

duh. My brain must have been lacking oxygen (or caffeine) - I missed the lack of computer memroy. Back again to looking at 6EXAS.

Thanks for the hint on servos - and yes: the ESC (with the SSEP kit) has a BEC connector so I don't need the receiver pack. (3 oz)

Any thoughts on the quote "Just substituting Lithium Polymer batteries for the supplied 2,100 mAh Nickel Metal Hydride (Ni-MH) battery doesn’t work" (http://www.masportaviator.com/ah.asp...&ID=65&index=3) ?

JasonM (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...hreadid=112961) replaced the stock NiCd wiht a 2s4p LiPo pack - and I don't see any mention of having to account for the "lost" 1V... What am I missing?

Cheers -
s

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

Sven, looks like you're making good progress.
Radio:
The 6YG is a non-computer model. It gets you 2 more channels than the 4YF, but not much more. If your budget doesn't work for a computer radio, just buy a cheap 4 channel. The new Tower radio is probably from Futaba, much of their radio equipment. I know nothing about it. Something to keep in mind is it's hard to tell when an item that shows a stock status of "Order pending" will actually be available. You could end up waiting months.

Servos:
It looks like the plane is setup for standard servos. It's certainly large enough that their weight shouldn't be an issue. You could switch to smaller servos, but they are usually a bit more expensive. You would also have the hassle of adding something to the servo tray to accomodate their smaller size. However, if you plan to stick with electrics, and your next plane is smaller, the small servos might be a better choice. The S3101 servos would probably be ok. Alternatively, you could explore one of the Hitec 6 channels and equip it with small servos and the Electron 6 receiver.

Batteries:
LiPo batteries require extra caution when charging, and you also need to be sure that the speed control low voltage cutoff can handle them. If you or your son are not prepared to handle their special requirements, you may want to wait till later to go that route. A compromise that would give you less weight, or more capacity, than NiCads is to go with NiMH batteries. They weigh less than NiCads, but don't have the special care issues of LiPo batteries.

Chargers:
Yes, they can be expensive. I've got an Accucycle Elite. I think it's great, but the $150 price tag is steep. The Quick Field Charger MKII doesn't cost as much and gets good reviews: http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXCTZ5&P=0

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

Chuck
I think I can defend going wiht a 6EXAS. I did check out the HiTecs. Saw the 6ch with 4 servos... (http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...I=LXHGR3**&P=0) but it seems to be missing the computer memory. Am I right?
And I feel good about the Futaba b/c folks here seem extremely pleased...
How do those two brands compare overall? Is Futaba the higher-quality/higher end?


servos: I hardly will go smaller in terms of plane. I could see wanting to have dual-servo ailerons, or some other shnickshnack for which I'd want a micro servo - but that's a while down the road...

Can you tell me more about "the speed control low voltage cutoff can handle them" and LiPos?

JasonM used the stock (30A) ESC...

NiMH - interesting! Would those obviate the need to recondition the packs?

Thanks for the charger link - I wondered about that one because it does handle NiCd, NiMH AND LiPos. Was confused about the charging current (2A) - for some reason I thought it needed to be higher, especially for higher capacity packs (somewhere I read that the rule of thumb is charge currect = 1C ?)

Hey - I got someone recommending the DuraPlane models b/c they're so tuff. Kindof think that I might be OK with the Superstar + trainer and sim... but opinions welcome!

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

Keep in mind that Lipos are significantly more expensive. The answer to the lost 1V is in his first post. He measured the amps being pulled on the NiMH and Lipo packs. The reason performance wasn't lacking when he switched to the lower voltage Lipos is because they were able to deliver more amps. He calculated that the total watts delivered were slightly higher, so no performance loss.

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

Chuck - thanks. - Yeah the lipos are more expensive. And I understand now. lower voltage -> higher amps to get same power. Hence the discussion around the higher Amperage and whether the ESC will handle that higher current.
Thanks!
Now where's my coffee...

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

Nothing wrong with the 6EXAS. Nope, the Hitec you found is not a computer model. The quickest way to tell is to look for the little screen somewhere on the front.

The issue with voltage cutoff is that if you discharge Lipo batteries too low you will damage them. Most ESCs have a cutoff that turns off the power to the motor when the battery reaches a certain level. The power to the BEC is maintained. This gives you a clue that it's time to land. The cutoff point for Lipos is different from other batteries, so you want to be sure that your ESC has a cutoff for the Lipos. Some ESCs actually have a programmable cutoff point.

Yes, NiMH and Lipo packs do not need to be cycled. However, I do occasionally cycle my NiMH packs to be sure they still hold the right capacity.

I'd have to look at the charge capacity of the MKII again. If you're going with huge Lipo packs, you're going to need something more capable.

Many people refer to the Duraplanes as Durabricks because they are so heavy. When I bought my first kit (Sig Scamp) my instructor drilled it into my head that planes should be built to fly, not to survive crashes. He insisted that I keep the construction light. Building survivable planes is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. They're heavier so they need to fly faster and then they're more likely to crash.

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

Coffee? It should be Miller time by now! :D

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

Wrong time zone!!! - Although it IS past noon, so hmmm. Wait. still at work. Hmm, that might be a reason in itself...
See what you did? You got me THINKing about a beer!

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

No problem with a beer at lunch time, just don't follow the two guys lead.

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

Piper Chuck, you're terrible!! Besides, what ever happenned to the TWO MARTINI LUNCH[sm=confused.gif][sm=lol.gif]:D

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

man. Them Belgiams know beer. That's a funny pic :)
personally I prefer the small-dose-more-often approach!

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

AN advantage of a less expensive, 4 channel radio now, is, that your son, will eventually need his own radio too.You know how kids, and expensive electronics,usually pan out.You can hand him down whatever you buy now,and use the money, you would spend on more channels, to buy, better equipment ,or accessories, for the plane ,that you decide on..JUST a thought, you may want to consider,too.

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

D Bronk - that makes sense; to be honest, I had been assuming I wouldn't give him the sticks for a while...
Interesting thought. Might make some of the budget gymnastics more palable. Thanks for the idea!

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

PIPER mentioned to you about the Futaba Skysport 4YF. with that package you get 2 batteries.1 each for the transmitter,and,reciever,you get the reciever/servos,neck strap,a batterycharger, that charges both batteries ,from a household wall plug/socket.a channel flag for the radio antenea,servo hornsoretty much everything required to outfit whichever plane you pick..Also the packages can be had with a micro set-up or a standard size set-up.I bought one in a micro version for my nephewswho are quite young AS WELL..I was going to let them use my 7 channel but thought twice because accidents happen and I didn`t want MY radio ,to see any rough handling .My 7 channel radio is also a Futaba, so when it`s time to train the boys all I need to do is buy the trainer cord, plug their radio, into my radio ,and instant buddy box :D.I`ll actually use it ,on some miniture planes ,I`m build too.. any ways here`s a couple pics 1 of them is the 4 and 7 channel.

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

I am going to go against the grain here and suggest something a little different. If you haven't looked into any of Parkzone's stuff, you may want to. Alot of people swear by their stuff as being easy on the wallet and on the thumbs when learning to fly. All of their stuff includes the plane, battery, charger and radio and everything comes installed. I have met a couple of people who have the Piper J3 Cub and love it to pieces. I myself, have the Stryker which is an extremely fun flyer although, probably just a little hot for the beginning flyer.

The nice thing about Parkzone's stuff, is that all of their stuff flies pretty well based on my own experiences and others as well. Also, due to the low investment cost ($159 I believe for the Piper Cub), you won't have a huge out of pocket expense just to get started. Also, once you have learned on it, you can pass it on down to your son and not worry to much if he crashes as parts are really cheap for it.

The only downside to Parkzone's stuff (except for the Typhoon), is that they use 27mhz frequencies and their radios and receivers are really not something that you would want to reuse in another aircraft. Also, their radios are one stick configurations with a right hand stick for elevator and rudder (or elevon in the Stryker) and a throttle slider on the left hand side. This was a non-issue to me but some have problems adjusting to two sticks if they are use to one stick radios and vice versa.

Here's a link to Horizon Hobby's Parkzone division http://www.horizonhobby.com/Search/D...tDirection=ASC

Good luck in whatever you decide.

RE: Help for a wannabe and son
 

derek533 - thanks for the suggestion - I'll check them out.

Currently I am biased toward the 2stick setup - in my past (disasterous) experience it would have helped to have ailerons to right the glider ...

But who knows! I'll look into this. Definitely sounds great for something I could pass on to my son.