First low wing tail dragger?
 

Hello all,
I asked the owner of my local shop for a good low wing tail dragger to get used to for future warbirds. Well I walked out with a Midwest Little CAP 232 under my arm.
I love the build just as much as the flying and really don't care for ARFs.
Any thoughts on this kit or suggestions for another? (never flew a low wing)

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

stay with your instructor until you get used to the cap i'd have gone with a 4 star.
good luck

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

Dont have one, but most say the Four Star Series are great low wing tail dragger trainers. Guys in my club love them!

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

CAP 232 for a first low wing tail dragger? Interesting choice. I`ll second the suggestion regarding staying with your instructor for a while on that one. One of the 4* series might have been a better choice, however, I`m not sold on them as preparation for a truly scale warbird because they float too much IMHO. For a SPORT SCALE warbird, I think that might be a different story.

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

I have to agree on the Four Star. I have 2 of the 40 size and a 60 size in the garage and they are by far my favorite plane to fly. It would be a good idea to work with your instructor for the first couple of flights no matter which plane you fly as a first tail dragger as you will be entering a whole new phase of RC flight. Good Luck, Dave

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

I know that you already have the CAP so build it & enjoy looking at it. However, since it is unlikely to survive for long as a second plane (sorry, but true), plus it's really not very warbird-like, I have another suggestion.

Do this in a couple of steps.

1) Convert you trainer to a tail-dragger, re-balance it so that it is quite nose heavy, max the control throws & re-prop it with the steepest pitch prop that the engine will comfortably pull on that airframe. Practice with that until the cows come home. This will give you a faster, touchier plane, with higher approach & landing speeds, but will not be completely beyond your skills.

2) Next, get a quick sport plane like a GP Ultra Sport+ & practice with that until you are comfortable with the speed & responsiveness. Then start loading it with ballast to increase the wing loading & keep going like that until you are really comfortable with high stall speeds, tricky power-on approach turns & hot touch-downs.

At that point you will be ready to start flying warbirds -- oh yes -- & maybe the CAP.

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

I would have to agree that a Sig 4 Star 60 or a Goldberg Tiger 60 would have been a MUCH better choice. Both of them come in a kit version since you dont like ARF's much. I think I would seriously consider taking the Cap back and possibly exchanging it, because your LHS guy that recommended it to you apparently was just trying to sell you a plane instead of steering you towards what you REALLY needed. The Cap is not going to fly anything like a warbird. It's design is strictly for aerobatics, and you are going to be playing catch up with the airplane because of it's handling qualities instead being able to concentrate on actually learnign to fly a taildragger. The 4 Star or Tiger either one would make the transition go much smoother, and probably save you from re-kitting a plane.;)

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Midwest Little Cap a .25 - .30 size plane? If so for me at least that would make it even harder as a second plane. Maybe just me but small & fast = hard to see & sqrirrely. I have a WM Cap .46R ( The Castrol Aviator) a copy of Mike Goulian competion Cap. I'm saving it for at least #3 & maybe #4 plane depending on how well I progress. I do have a Mini Edge 540 that I am allready playing with while still on my Trainers, but that is an ARf that I can replace for $99 & an afternoons tinkering to set it up. I think with a full build kit I would be a little heartbroken if I went out & turned it into a lawn dart after all that hard work & TLC invested in it.

Not to high-jack his thread, but I have a Dragon Lady with a Saito 100 on it that I am planning on using for my low-wing trainer. Any thoughts as to wether or not it will fit the bill? Or will I be in over my head with that one too? Thanks for any input.

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

Grump,

I have seen the Dragon Lady flown by a very good pilot. He assured me that it would be an easy transition. That plane is a very nice flyer in capable hands. I would go up on a buddy-box for the first flight or so and see what your instructor thinks.

Maybe it's cheating, but thats what I do with all of my new planes.

Good luck!!

Mark

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

Thanks everyone,
The Little CAP is a .60 size.
I do have a have a Hobbico Brightstar (in need of some repair but certainly fixable) That is a .40 size low wing with tricycle gear. (suppose it could be converted to tail dragger)
I do think I will take a serious look at 4 stars. (can't have too many airplanes. Right?)
And, yes, I will be working with an instructer the whole way.

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

IMO, 4 Stars are much too tame -- they fly more or less like trainers. Since you already have a low-wing trainer type that you can convert to a tail-dragger, I think that you need a bigger step -- just not as big as a CAP.

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

Yeah, if you build the Four Star 60 in it's stock out of the box form, it's fairly tame. Shorten each wing by 1 bay, add 1.5 inches of length to the rudder, sheet the turtledeck, and put a .91 or 1.00 Four stroke on it, and it is FAR from tame. Mine doesnt fly anywhere NEAR like a stock one flies.;) Apparently, Brit has never flown one that's been modified much!

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

WHEN !!! you are ready you will love the Midwest Cap, but it isn't really a second plane for most people.. As stated before, build it and take your time and just ENJOY it while you practice with something else for awhile. If you can keep it I wouldn't return it, you may never get a chance to get another one !!! ENJOY !!! RED

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

Glad to hear that I was wrong about the size! At least at a .60 size when you do feel ready to fly it at least you'll be able to see it.;)
I made the mistake of geting a Tequila Sunrise because I have a hot little OS .25 engine that my Dad gave me, & I really liked the look of the Tequila Sunrise. After I started training on my .40-.46 size trainers I quickly realized that I don't have the eyes for a small plane, especially one that is going to be that fast! Dad hot-rodded this .25 out pretty good. It's gonna be a screamer, way too fast for me! Maybe I'll sell it to piper chuck,lol he seems to like those little hot-rods. :D

I think you're making a good choice of turning the low-wing you allready have into a tail dragger. The Cap will allways be there when your ready for it.

Agexpert, Thanks for the tip about my Dragon Lady, & yes when the time comes I won't be maidening it alone, that's for sure!!

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

Actually I have -- a hot one is tons of fun, but not difficult. If he's going warbirding he needs something with a high wing loading, double tapered wings & plenty of speed -- but not as completely unforgiving as a warbird. The stock 4 * is just a *****cat & a clipped wing & up-powered 4* still hasn't got the right flavour -- its too agile, rather than having the weighty, almost ponderous, but fast-moving feel of a warbird. That's why I like the Ultra-Sport for warbird training. If you load it up with ballast, it can approximate a fighter fairly well, & you still have a really good sport plane afterward (assuming it survives).

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

The Midwest Little Cap 232:
Wingspan 62"
Wing area 694 square inches
Weight 7.5 to 8.5 lb

At 7.5 lb, you will have a wing loading of 24.9 ounces per square foot.
At 8.5 lb, you will have a wing loading of 28.2 ounces per square foot.

This means that this plane is going to land fast. I would move mountains to keep the weight down to 7.5 lbs. Light planes are also better aereobatically.

Remember, you don't HAVE to set it up with 3-D control surface throws or with a 3-D center of gravity.
Set it up slightly more nose heavy than the aerobatic CG location but don't over do it. Too nose heavy and you run out of elevator while landing.
Use low rate control surface throws at first, especially on the elevator. What you are looking for is full back stick without a tip stall/snap roll. Have an experinced flyer do the maiden flight and if he can make it snap roll in a tight loop, you need to reduce elevator travel.

Now, enjoy the plane and increase the throws and move the CG further back as you get better at flying it.

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

One more thing, a dead calm day is the bane of taildraggers. Wait until there is a light wind straight down the runway. Also, those soft spongy wheels like Dave Brown Lite Flight or equivelent really seem to tame the ground handling of a taildragger. When the plane is yawed, their low lateral traction lets the wheels side slip instead of hooking up and spining the plane into a ground loop.

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

I am always perplexed by the warnings about tail draggers. My first td was a Sweet Stick I converted thirty years ago. My experience is I have less trouble with the ground handling of a td compared to a trike.

Cross wind, no wind, any wind. Pavement, grass or dirt. Steerable tailwheel, non steerable tail wheel, or skid I'll take the ground handling of a tail dragger over a nose wheel any day.

I think that too many guys are afraid to try tail draggers because of the "becareful how you fly them" talk at the field or on boards like these. When a guy does try a tail dragger he is so "tensed-up" with all the talk that he can't think.

You ain't having fun till you're dragging yer arse down the runway.

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

Agree

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

Ditto.
I built my Tiger 2 as a TD. After about 15 solo flights on my Avistar, I maidened the T2 with only my instructor close at hand - just in case. I found the T2 easier to take off, fly and land than the Avistar. Not to mention more fun too! I have since converted the Avistar to a TD and am looking forward to flying that as well this spring.

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

"One more thing, a dead calm day is the bane of taildraggers." <=== WTH are you talking about?

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

They simply are easier to take off straight with when there is a little headwind. The rudder is already steering and stabilizing the plane at zero ground speed when there is a headwind.

I agree with those who claim that sweet, ugly, or whatever sticks built as taildraggers are easy to take off and land, with their generous tail length and vertical fin area. It almost doesn't count as TD experience. A scale Cub is something else however.

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

The only bane of a dead calm day to an RC'er is if you're headed out the door to go slope soaring or sailing at the pond.
I understand the purpose of the trike gear on a trainer. What I disagree with is the notion that tail draggers or inherrently difficult to fly. I've talked to some widely experienced fliers who are afraid to try a tail dragger because of comments by other fliers.
Yeah the Cub is tougher to ground handle than a Stick. But it still is a kick to fly and only slightly more difficult than anyother dragger. One up side is the increased understanding of rudder function. The other upside to the rear wheel airplane, is that the faster they taxi on take off the more direction stability they have. Unlike a nose wheel which will begin to track back and forth at a point. The result is more airspeed on take off rather than forcing the plane into the air to avoid the Laugh-In tricycle moment.

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

I am certainly not trying to disuade people from taildraggers, every plane I have owned from my second plane on has been a TD. They are cleaner, handle grass fields better, and they just look right. I also like to build and fly small model airplanes (.10 and .15 engine sizes mostly but some .049 and one .020) and just like taildraggers, I was pleasently surprised at how terrible they are not, even though a lot of people try to warn others away from them.
The Cap 232 would not be a good beginner's plane even if it had tricycle landing gear. It's not the landing gear that makes this an experienced pilot's plane.

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

Hey I have no fear of taildraggers, I can crash them just as well as a trike:D
Actually I have yet to crash a plane, unless you count the time I had to borrow an extension ladder to get one of my planes out of the top of a tree (undamaged I might add)
I have looked at 4 stars, Tiger 2 and GP Ultra Sport and so far I like the looks of the ultra sport best.
Wing loading at 20 to 22 isn't alot higher than the 4 star but it gives me more room to grow.
Any other suggestions?

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

My second plane was a clipped wing cub and I was terrified when I took off the first time.I only had 20 flights under my belt and deadsticked as the engine died as I was climbing to altittude at 75'.The club instructor heard me and knowing it was my maiden flight and I'm still new ran towards me to help me and slipped and almost took me out and knocked down the barrier right as I touched down about half way down the runway.I did nose over and bust a prop but all was ok and we laughed because the instructor said,"here I am trying to help you and I inadvertantly almost shoot you down on landing deadstick runnin to help ya!".Anyway I went right back up and have flown fine since I think I almost had myself psyched out as it does take more concentration but but not that much at least for me anyway.I picked up a pts mustang for plane 3 this weekend as its a "trainer" but still havent had a chance to get out yet.

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

B.I.E. you hit the nail on the head. It's not the gear as much as the plane. One of the problems first time draggers run in to is throttle application. Most trainers being trikes and "reasonably" powered, tend to teach newguys that it is fine to go full throttle, bump the rudder/nose wheel a little, then quickly take off. Bad things happen where the ground meets sky.
You mentioned J3's which got me to thinking(an unreasonably slow and cumbersome process). My Cub is the old Sig 72" wing, I fly it with an older OS 28 in the nose and usually take off at about 2/3 throttle. Also the guy who taught me to fly, taught me to slowly advance the throttle instead of firewalling it. The small motor and the slow throttle advance gives me a very rewarding scale like takeoff.
Now, we take our garden variety taildragger, add our understandable penchant for overpowering everything(because we can and it's fun), and then throw in the newbe notion that the faster I hit the power the quicker the plane gets in the air and away from the plane eating Earth and we have the recipe for ankle biting ground loops.
The other thing I got to thinking about is that with the exception of trainers I would bet that 75 to 80% of the planes at our local flying fields are tail draggers. Meaning? Eventually, most everyone firures it out.

RE: First low wing tail dragger?
 

My first low wing taildragger was a John Van'T Haaf "Gnat", a 34 inch wingspan pattern plane designed for a .10 engine. The plan was a centerfold freebie in Model Airplane news, I don't think it was ever kitted. The 1/2A "Bee Tween" I built earlier doesn't count because it was a two channel hand launched plane.

Low wing
Tail dragger
and small!:D

Yet I didn't crash it on my maiden flight and had a lot of fun with it.