Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

Hi all,

I've read numerous posts about warbirds are not trainers, get yourself a trainer etc, and I understand the logic. I have also read a few articles in print and on the web that something like the [link=http://www.greatplanes.com/airplanes/gpma1330.html]Great Planes Tiger moth[/link] makes a good trainer. From looking at the plane I am inclined to believe this. It has dihedral on the lower wing and flat bottomed airfoils. I'm wondering if any of the experienced folk on here would agree that this may make a decent alternative to the square box type trainer.

I live in the Yukon way up in Northern Canada, there is an RC Club here so I will be attempting to get an instructor, if/when the snow decides to go away. I have a sim and probably have well over 100 hours flying time on it, almost all of that (after the requisite learning how things work on the Nextar bit) using low-wing taildraggers or biplanes. Considering the fact that a LHS is non-existant anywhere closer than a 16hour drive, and the hoops I have to go through to get things here, I would REALLY prefer not getting a highwing trainer, and would prefer something semi-scale that I can enjoy for a long time. I have purchased a Jemco AT-6 Texan, but I'm pretty sure that flying that immediately would probably end in pain.

Am I living in dreamland, or do you think that with an instructor along this could be done?

Thanks for your input,
Graham

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

IMO, this plane has three strikes against it as a basic trainer.

1. It's a biplane. Even though it has flat bottom airfoils and dihedral on one wing, it won't handle as gently or be as forgiving as a basic "box" trainer.
2. It's a tail-dragger. Harder to taxi and to handle during takeoff and landing.
3. The real plane was moderately aerobatic. The model probably is as well. NOT what you need in a trainer.

Save yourself some money and grief. Buy the "box" trainer, fly it until you're completely bored with it, THEN go to a more scale looking, more aerobatic plane. If you get a decent radio and engine with your basic trainer, you can use them for your second plane, too.

Dr.1

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

I think that with a trainer along for the ride. reapeat with a trainer. then i would go with the T6 over the tiger moth. a biplane is just not a trainer. the best option really is to get either a "box trainer" or one of the other popular sport planes seeing as LHS is out and tower hobbies etc. will be international order. the only thing i know about the yukon was the week i spent in beaver creek, if that is anything near what you have then even mail order seems like it might be a neat trick.
with a trainer (if he's willing to train you on a low wing sport plane, T6, 4*, goldberg tiger etc.) then i think that you should be able to do it just fine. there will be a lot of people that will tell you that you need a box trainer, my thinking however is that with the right mentor, some one who will spend the time with you, then you can learn to fly any sport plane out there. despite what most think, what makes a good trainer is a stable flyer, good slow to medium speed characteristics, gentle and predictable stall. a flat bottom airfoil is mainly the way that manufacturers achieve the flight characteristics, but it really isn't required. a 4 star has a semi symetrical wing and there are lots of people that say it flies better than their trainer. ground handling is most importand for cars, a plane will take some practice again this is where club trainer comes in to play. a tail dragger does increase the learning curve, but not by so much that with help you cant over come it.
Find that club trainer and talk to him. he is far more likely to understand you plight than most people here will, and may be willing to help you out with what you have. if he says you absolutly must get a box, then i guess thats the answer. I just believe that most of the current batch of sport planes out there fly well enough through out their flight envelope that they could be used as a trainer, again with a trainer on a buddy box.

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

Some GOOD info. above and in your situation ( out back ) you would be WAY ahead to talk to the instructor and see what they think. Not being able to get things at the LHS puts you at a big disadvantage compared to most of us and the instructor will probably be able to keep your needs within a grasp. Just take your time and don't rush it !! ENJOY !!! RED

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

One other plane you MAY want to consider is the SIG Rascal. In the 40 size, with the rates set on low, the plane is docile and slow enough to readily be used as a tail dragger trainer. Put the rates on high and the plane is reasonably aerobatic and will loop, roll, knife edge (with a 46 definitely) etc.

A bi-plane, while very cool, is not a trainer. I am not saying it could not be done, but the learning curve will be very steep. Compare it to teaching someone how to drive a car using a Formula 1 or Indy 500 car.

As others have suggested, you need to discuss this with the person who will be instructing you BEFORE buying anything.

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

In case you haven't heard enough reasons why a biplane isn't a good trainer, here's another that I don't think has been mentioned yet. The two wings sometimes lead to confusion about the orientation of the plane. Even experienced pilots sometimes get confused about the plane's attitude due to the second wing. This can be minimized by flying close in and lower to the ground, but these are not things a beginner should be doing. The high wing layout of the typical trainer makes the orientation more obvious.

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

I know that these aren't the answers that you want to hear, but unfortunately they are the truth. Everybody above has given out some good advice. Bi-planes take a bit more to fly than a single wing airplane. One noticeable difference is in the landing approach. With a "boxy" high wing trainer you can float for quite a long time, meaning after you lower your throttle to idle the plane will "coast" along for quite a long time. But with a biplane this isn't true. Because of the two wings biplanes have more drag and they will slow down a lot quicker than a single wing plane will. With a biplane you need to fly the plane down to the ground as opposed to a trainer which you can hold it level and it will settle down to the ground. Biplanes have a higher learning curve because of that. Even experienced pilots can have problems when they first try flying a biplane.

What Chuck said about the orientation of the plane is very true. Another thing that I see a lot is to a lot of pilots biplanes will appear to be a box. Because of the short tail and the appearance given off by the two wings the appearance of the bipe can take some getting used to. As with everything else in flying practicing will help with this. But for a beginner is may be too much to deal with all at once.

The last thing is the instructor. A lot of instructors won't teach a student if they don't have a good trainer plane. Some instructors may train you on an advanced trainer if the circumstances are right, but I would tend to doubt that any instructor is going to be willing to train you on a biplane. I know I wouldn't

Ken

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

Thanks for the advice. I'll avoid the bipe for now.

Once I get a hold of the club and find out about instructors and talk to one (if the snow ever goes away), I'll see about being trained with the AT-6. I think if he puts it in the air and lets me fly it before deciding whether to train me on it, then I'm good. I have 40+ hours on that airframe alone in sim, so I can handle it in the air I don't just bank and yank. If not, then I'll look for a box trainer. Thanks for pointing to the Rascal Campy, its one of the least ugly trainers I have seen.

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

a sim does not translate into real life. a 100+ hours on the airframe isnt going to even come close to guaranteing you could come close to flying it. In all likelehood, and instructor will refuse to train you on a plane thats not a trainer, or suitably gentle ...

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

An option not mentioned, if you are seriously against standard trainers, is the Hanger 9 P51 PTS trainer.
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...ProdId=HAN2825
(again check with an instructor first)

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

yea yea yea you hear it all the time "get a trainer" "fly a box" blah blah blah... dude if you have an instructor..get what you wanna get.. you will learn on any plane w. the right help... help myyyy "trainer" wasnt a "trainer"..get what you wanna get... practice landing w/ your instructor in the air... then bring her down and do it on the runway!!! have fun

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

UM...

Chalk another one up for 'get a real trainer'. Sims are not really much good until you are working with an instructor. I flew a big scale scratch-built TM (110" WS) and I discovered a new definition for the term 'adverse yaw'. I don't think a student needs to deal with that much rudder correction JMHO.

As far as the AT-6...are you kidding? I have seen experienced pilots tip-stall those into the ground. There is no space bar at the field...I checked.

I really think you should invest in a trainer. I never thought of the Rascal as a trainer, that would be interesting. Look at the SIG Kadet Senior...an awesome trainer and you can put a 4-stroke engine, (.70-.90) on it that you can use later-on.

Good Luck!!

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

This is what is pretty much guarenteed to happen with your AT-6:
http://media.putfile.com/Byron-Texan-Deck-Slide

Again, most instructors wont teach you on it anyway...

Whats so bad about a standard trainer? You're afraid it looks ugly?!? Paleeese....you're not going to be entering beauty contests with your trainer. It's meant to successfully teach you to fly, and thats what it does.
All the advice given here is sound (except ChrisHays' advice...he is after all a "professional prop breaker"...'nuff said). No one says you have to keep the trainer, so just get one, learn to fly WELL, then stop flying it if its so hideous. I have a good feeling you wont regret it! (Heck you may want to keep your trainer!) Cheers! ;)

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

if youre worried about the ugly factor, buy a kit and build it. after youve put your sweat and tears into it, you'd be suprised in how good it looks to you, after your finished. plus a nicely covered kadet senior or seniorita actually doesnt look that bad.

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

Graham,

If I can chime in here. I can understand your wanting a plane that "looks like a plane" or one that you just love the looks of. I'm a noob to the whole R/C scene, I've only been flying for about a month and a half. Sure, I spent quite a few hours on the sim but nothing compared to actually getting out there and flying. One major difference I noticed was that you are much more intimidated when you know that you don't have that red reset button on the transmitter you're now holding. If you don't feel that way when you start flying, you'll definitely feel that way as you sweep up your plane. Just IMHO. That said, I originally had a small .20 size T-Craft as my first plane. I went to the local club and like here, many of them suggested that I get a trainer first. Just so happened that one of the guys knew of a Kadet Senior for sale. Almost ready to fly. Not an arf, just needed some work to get it going again. It had a Saito 50 on it with mega heavy duty landing gear. I buddy boxed for about two weeks and then my trainer said, "you're landing, taking off and flying, I'm just holding the other box!" Even after that, it was amazing how much that underpowered, big, slow plane would get ahead of me from time to time. I just wasn't thinking far enough ahead to really control it, I was reacting to where it was in the air. I would only fly if there was absolutely NO wind (of course, an underpowered Senior doesn't especially like wind anyway) until one day I felt confident enough to tame the wind. Breeze might be more accurate. I went up and learned how to counter crosswinds and even got the Senior to stay put in the breeze with no ground speed evident. Thankfully it was a constant breeze, not gusty and I ALWAYS was at least 3 mistakes high. After about three weeks of flying pretty much every day (I got up at 5 0'clock every morning to fly before work) I took my T-craft up. It was amazing how different they were. The T-Craft was FAST compared to my Senior and I'm glad that I didn't try to learn on it. When I fly my Senior now, I feel like I should put slow moving vehicle triangles on it but when I was learning, it was still a handful. I even had a few deadstick landings with it early on and I'm VERY glad that I didn't have my T-CRaft, it would have crashed for sure. Saying all that to say this, listen to the guys who have been there. There's a reason why there are so many trainers available. I've even had guys tell me to never sell your trainer because sometime, you may get a wild hair to fly slowly or just do some touch and gos. Still got mine and don't see it going anywhere soon.

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

LOL..tell you what.. most club instructors will train him... i was checked out on my second flight on a UcanDo .46 on my second flight..lets see thats 30ish minutes of learning???? ..Professional Prop Breaker was given to me by a group of guys that i fly foamies w. because of the way and things i touch w. them... i hover and most of the time cut leaves off trees, VPP grass a 1in-1/2in off the ground....wanna go fly sometime?



to the origanol poster.. sorry i didnt mean to take over this post w.o making a comment about your situation.. just wanted to respond to a... ahh n.m;)... Let us know what you are getting when you decided... look at the telemasters too!

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

Actually, MOST WILL NOT TRAIN a student on an AT-6 or Tiger Moth. Most will insist that the student get a trainer. This is for the student's sake, and the instructor's sanity.
And your point is? There is no magical formula, and EVERY student is different. While you MAY have done what you say, most students have their hands full with a trainer. Students need slow, predictable, and relatively stable planes to learn on. This is why NEARLY ALL instructors insist on using a trainer for learning.

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

my instructor wont even let students fly the PTS, much less a scale plane right now. the pts may change after they fly one btu i doughbt it.


chris-no, sorry mate you dont sound like someone i want to be any were near while flying if your intentionaly trimming the shrubbery with a planeand trying to break props etc....

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

I think there's the fragility of a biplane to consider when training too, as wheels up landings WILL occur at some point, whilst the student pilot learns what the word "stall" actually means to him/her. With a biplane there's just more to break when you do lawn dart it.

Box trainers serve almost all student pilots well, and are built to take the occassional thump, and more importantly, be dead easy to patch up afterwards.

ChrisHays, it's great that you were able to fly a moderate model early on, but I don't think anyone will disagree that for every lucky person who manages to fly such a model as a beginner, several others will simply jack it all in.

I have to disagree that most instructors will teach on any model, it's my experience that this is simply not the case. Reactions vary, but ultimately most will refuse.

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

Ah well, I don't want to risk the Texan, its a very hard model to replace, so I have a Nexstar on order. I chose the Nexstar because of the AFS, speed brakes and such, as I have been unable to contact the local rc club, and am starting to wonder if they're still around. I may wind up training myself. I'll let you all know how that goes if it happens. In the long run, I guess I can throw some floats on the Nexstar and play in the lakes.

Hmmm anyone know if the version of the Nexstar without the engine/radio comes with the AFS? It seems to from the way the Hobbico website reads.

Cheers,
Graham

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

The ARF version of the Nexstar does not come with the AFS. I hate to break it to you,but I don't think your instructor will want you to have the AFS on. Your instructor is the AFS. If your plane goes into a bad attitude your instructor will take over and get you back in the rhythm. Also, the AFS will give you bad habits. When you buy future planes, it's not like your gonna let go and the plane is just going to correct itself right?The speed brakes and wing extenders might help you learn on the plane,but when my instructor saw those he said take them off.It really depends on you and your instructor.You made a good choice on the Nexstar as it is a great trainer and can give you some great fun!


Happy Flying!

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

Normally, I'm one of those who speaks passionately against things like AFS, speed brakes, and trying to learn without an instructor. However, if you live in a remote location and there's just no instructor available, then you're faced with either learning on your own, or not flying. In addition to those aids, if you're really on your own, look for the threads where some of us have talked about bad habits that you should avoid. Also spend LOTS of time on a simulator before you attempt to fly. And finally, with any glow plane, there is a risk of injury from striking a body part with the propellor. Even if you can't find an instructor, you really should find someone else to go with you in case you cut yourself on the prop.

One other thing I can think of that might offer a way to learn with an instructor is to attend one of the camps that offer intensive training.
AFS is not exclusive to the Nexstar, you can put it in any plane. Here's the link at Tower: http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXGFR5&P=7

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

Chris, can you help me understand something? You say you soloed in 30 minutes on the UCD, after "30ish minutes of learning". In other threads you said things like:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=1383463
"Man i just cant seem to grasp it.. me and my great instructor tried several times today.. i can level the plane and slowly decend i just cant line it up right... my approach is horrible any tips?!?!?"

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=1642889
" avistar isnt "cheap" $99.99 but its great .. its what i learned on and still fly...its more of an advanced trainer"

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=3930852
"avistar is what i learned on... loved it.. still have it btw.."

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=4140648
"my last crash a year ago was a decathlon that i stalled... dipped and flipped...i have a u can do but havent flown it yet..."

So, it looks like you learned several years ago, on several different planes, none of which was a UCD. Please help me understand the conflicting information. I'm curious why someone who admitted to having trouble learning to land a trainer would endorse another person trying to learn with something like an AT-6.

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

Easy answer, you are reading posts by 2 different people.. some from me, some from my roomate who also happens to be my brother. We use the same account on not only RCU but Wattflyer and Flying Giants. Since we have lived together since we turned 18 weve always used the same account. Never ran into a problem. If you need me to run down the posts ive made and my brother has made i will. He flies glow and only owns 3 electric models (besides the million foamies we have out of FanFoldFoam and Depron) now and I fly glow and electric models. Chris who learned on an Avistar around 3-4 years ago and who got me intrested in R/c shortly there after. I (Mike, if you must know) soloed on a UcanDo. [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4116668/anchors_4140648/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#4140648]This Post [/link] if in reference to a UcanDo E-conversion that he is working on and that will maiden today if im not mistaken. IMO the you can do is stable enough to learn on. Not to mention ive flown the rebuilt version of the avistar and the Ucan lands slower and easier.

Edit: I should have mentioned everyone learns different also. I have a friend who taught himself after using a sim and some small electrics untill he went to glow , My brother learned on an avi and i learned on a Ucan W. a Sim;).. anymore questions feel free to Pm me as to not hijack this thread and take away from the original poster

RE: Tiger Moth Trainer?
 

Chris/Mike/Whomever wrote the bit about the bad bitds of AFS, I don't think your read my whole post. I am getting the Nexstar for the very reason that I am starting to doubt whether I will be able to find an instructor and will most likely be doing it on my own. I am aware that AFS can lead to bad habits and such, I didn't plan on letting it do the flying, its just nice to have a net. Regardless if the ARF version doesn't come with it, its a moot point, as that's the version I'm getting.

Thanks for the link re: AFS Chuck, I knew there were others out there, but hadn't found any. I probably won't buy one if it doesn't come with the plane.

Cheers,