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Bi-plane as second plane?
Hello to everyone :)
I have a question and I'm looking for a few opinions on the matter. When I was younger my dad and I used to be into RC aircraft, though I only flew myself a few times. 10 years later I've decided I want to get back into the hobby for a variety of reasons. I was thinking I'd go about getting my hands on a trainer plane this winter, and come spring I'd go out and learn to fly. My question comes in regards to a second plane. I want to pick up a kit which I can spend this winter assembling that will serve as my post-trainer plane eventually, and I want to get something that I'm interested in and never got a chance to be around much before. I've always been a big fan of bi-planes for a number of reasons. So I was considering picking up an Ultimate .40 kit. Another consideration is the fact that where I'm living right now I don't have a lot of space in which to work/store any planes, so the smaller wingspan on a bi-plane would be helpful in that department, but it's really a secondary, if not tertiary, consideration. So then, my question comes down to: Are bi-planes suitable second planes for a beginner pilot? I know they're often used for stunt flying, but can they be docile enough for someone with only a few months experience under their belts? Any opinions would be welcome! Thanks! |
RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
The Ultimate is a little hotrod. You be better off with a Sig Hog Bipe , which will be more forgiving. If this is your first build , you might want to concider a low wing , such as the 4 star . The kits build easy and the plane will definatly take you to the next step in flying , before the Ultimate. Just my 2 cents.
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RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
Hello Inkedsphynx,
IMHO,bi-plane has Two wings to store… Alex |
RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
My neighbor had an ultimate 40, it was about his 4th plane after a couple of trainers and a J3 Cub. It lasted him about 5 flights and is now in a landfill somehwere.
My point is a bi-plane IMO is not a good second plane and an Ultimate is certainly not the best choice for a first bipe either. You will be learning orientation as a new flier and bipes are harder to judge orientation on simply because of having 2 wings. The Ultimate is also a speed demon. Not only did my neighbor plant his 40 size Ultimate but a few weeks ago one of the most experienced pilots (and AMA introdutory instructor) drilled his big Ultimate in and lost a brand new Saito 180 in the middle of a pond in the process. If you insist on a bipe at least go with a more tame model like a SIG Hog Bipe. |
RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
I'm going to have to answer with a flat out NO. You should not get a biplane as as second plane. And the biggest reason why I say not to is mainly the landing. Almost 99% of people who learn to fly a trainer are taught to land their trainer by cutting the throttle and letting the plane float in for a landing. There is nothing wrong with that as it's really a good way to teach a new person to fly. I do with my students as well. But if you try that approach with a biplane you are more than likely going to wind up with a pile of broken plane parts after the plane stalls from 10' up. A biplane really needs to be flown completely down to the ground. Once you have some experience in flying with other planes this isn't hard to do at all, but it is something that you need to learn how to do first. Move to a Tiger II or a 4-star first to learn these skills. And then move on to the biplane. When you do get ready for a biplane I recommend the Sig Hog Bipe. It's probably the most well mannered of most of the biplanes out there these days as it really has not bad habits that other biplanes can have.
Ken |
RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
Thank you all for the quick replies! It seems the answer is going to be a resounding "no!". That's fine with me, as it just means I'll have a few more planes in the hangar (hopefully in one piece!) when it comes time for me to take a bi-plane out for a spin (I chose the Ultimate btw because I've always loved the way it looked).
I guess I'll have to come up with another plane I like to be my second flown plane. I might still consider building a bi-plane kit this winter though, since I'm sure I'll have the time to put more than 1 plane together over the next 5 months. Would a bi-plane kit be considerably more dificult, or potentially beyond my beginner skill level, if I chose to build one this winter? (And no, I wouldn't be tempted then to try to fly it. I am the kind of person that will probably enjoy having a small fleet of planes to look at as much as I will flying them, so I expect to own lots of planes before all is said and done *laugh*) |
RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
I have never built a SIG Hog Bipe but I have built several other SIG kits and they do a great job with instructions with lots of pictures.
If you are mechanically inclined I think you would have no trouble with the SIG Hog Bipe (there is probably a build thread here somewhere) |
RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
ORIGINAL: RCKen A biplane really needs to be flown completely down to the ground. Ken Thanks Jon |
RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
To echo what RCKen had to say, No there is not a biplane that would make a good second plane or even a third or fourth. I build nothing but biplanes, and there is more to consider than how many wings there are to store (of course that is also something to consider. But on landing, the parasitic drag is high enough, that when you cut the throttle on final, your throttle cut is to about 1/4 throttle. You must fly them all the way to the ground. My scale Waco's glide about like a crowbar. You don't keep up with the airplane, you must stay out in front of it. There is just too much to keep up with for someone who has little experience to try, and It would be a shame to lose a beautiful plane such as an Ultimate due to lack of experience. Build it if you must, but don't give it to the temptation to take it out and fly it. The first bipe that you should fly probably should be something like the Hog Bipe. They are probably the most forgiving model biplane out there.
Bill, AMA 4720 WACO Brotherhood #1 |
RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
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ORIGINAL: Minnreefer ORIGINAL: RCKen A biplane really needs to be flown completely down to the ground. Ken Thanks Jon Ok, see if this helps out any. Think of it as doing a high speed landing. Now that may sound funny, but here's what you do to practice this. Fly over the runway at a speed above the stall speed of your plane. You want to be able to fly the entire length of the runway without your plane stalling. Now continue to fly these passes lower and lower. What you are aiming for is to fly a pass where your wheels are actually touching the runway. Of course you don't want to do this at full throttle because you'll more than likely rip the landing gear out. You want just enough speed to be above the stall point of your plane. Just keep getting lower and lower until you can level out right when your wheels touch the runway and you can "fly" for a little bit with your wheels actually rolling on the ground. When you can do this you are ready for a biplane. Because you have to do the same thing with a bipe, fly it right down to when the wheels start rolling. Hope this helps Ken P.S. Just to keep you in the mood for a bipe, here's my current Sig Pig (Sig Hog Bipe) Ken |
RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
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If you want to fly a biplane while you're working with your trainer, why not put an indoor slow-flyer together for winter? There are a number of nice little biplanes that are suitable for beginners, first and foremost being the GWS Pico Tiger Moth.
The Pico Moth sells for about $49.95 and comes with the GWS IPS geared brushed electric motor. It builds easily and requires an inexpensive brushed electric speed controller (ESC) and a couple of micro servos to get flying. You can power it with a 7.2v 350 mah NiCd or NiMH battery and have the whole thing ready to fly for less than $120 or so using your existing transmitter. The Pico Moth is a very stable flyer and can be piloted in a large gymnasium. It's a great way to work on your flying skills while you're waiting for spring. The Pico Moth is suitable for a beginner modeller and pilot, but is well-liked by pilots of all skill levels. Several of the guys I fly indoors with have them and put extra effort into customizing and detailing their models. This option would let you enjoy indoor flying, assuming you can find an open gym somewhere. It will let you enjoy a biplane. It will also let you spend more time re-learning how to fly without risking your hobby budget on an airplane that you're not yet ready to fly. |
RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
Thanks Ken, that is what I figured, just wanted to clarify, there are many planes that I want to fly that need to be flown down, most warbirds are like that and it looks like bi planes are like that, I would love to have both.
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RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
I love biplanes as well. There look so cool in the air. But even cooler is the sound of the wind whistling between those two wings!!!! nothing else like it.
Ken |
RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
You're from Ohio. What field do you plan to fly at?
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RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
I plan on using a bi-plane as my second plane, but I am going about it in a specific way. I am very good at video games and pick up things like controlling these RC planes very quickly, so I have worked out an "accelerated" learning process to get me into a plane I really like as soon as possible. I got the simulator about a month ago and make sure to fly for at least an hour every day. I don't even plan to get a trainer until spring, so I'll have months of daily simulator experience by that time. Then I am am going to use the Arrow 40, which has a semi-symetrical wing, as my trainer. I am going to use that plane possibly all next year until winter before I get my second plane. After all of that, I plan on getting a Super Skybolt as my second plane. I've been told it lands very easily and is a reasonable choice if you think you will be a fast learner and have the patience to wait until you know you will be comfortable with it.
So I really think it might depend on who you are. If you know you are an ace at video games and other similar activities, you can probably go at a faster pace than the general recomendation. I think sometimes the "establishment advice" in this hobby has somewhat of a generational gap aspect too it. As for the Ultimate, I haven't flown real plane yet but if the simulator is any indication that one may be a bit much as a second plane. It is seriously maneuverable... |
RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
ORIGINAL: ccab17 You're from Ohio. What field do you plan to fly at? |
RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
As far a building a bipe goes...
The GP Ultimate 40 is a good build with excellent instructions. Ditto on the Sig Pig (Never built one, but so I have heard) However, both of them require more advanced building techniques than a typical trainer. So even though you don't plan to fly it right away, I would suggest not even building one until you have a little more building experience under your belt. Once you're ready to fly that bipe there are two things you could do to prepare. First is to get a simulator that has a variety of models to choose from. But another way is to modify your "beater" plane. Either use a plane that you are currently flying and comfortable with, or pick up a cheap trainer and get familiar with flying it. Then, add some weight. Start with 1/2 pound (8oz) and fly it some more. Once you get used to flying it (Especially landings) add another 8oz. Keep doing this until you really "FEEL" that extra weight, and find that you really need to compensate for it on landings. |
RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
MinnFlyer - that is great advice about adding the extra weight. I never thought of it but that is what a bipe seems like on landing, a heavy plane.
I couldn't imagine getting a bipe as a second plane, there is still too much to learn. I got a GP Super Skybolt ARF as my third plane and just recently began flying a .40 size Ultimate. Bipes fly differently from mono planes and I am sure glad I got the Skybolt before the Ultimate. The .40 Ultimate is quite a handfull and and you really need to be ahead of the plane all the time. I love bipes though and am looking at a pitts next. |
RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
When I first got involved in RC over 20 years ago, the plane I learned to fly on was an Andrews Aeromaster bi-plane. Why? Because it was the only plane I had. My brothers built it years earlier and never flew it. I put a new radio in and it was my trainer.
You'll notice I said "learned to fly." One thing I didn't learn was how to land. I flew for two summers doing the pass the transmitter routine with my mentor. I could take off, fly around, do basic aerobatics, but never had the confidence to land the thing. Then I went to college, got wrapped up in life and didn't fly again for 15 years. When I got started again, I did it the right way with a trainer. Second plane was a Cub, which had its own challenges. Third plane was a Stik, which is a super second or third plane. Then I revived the Aeromaster. Flew it successfully for a summer until an unfortunate incident where the covering literally peeled off a wing in a dive with disastrous results. Bipes are my favorite planes, but not a good second plane. I agree that a Hog Bipe would be a good first bipe. It has a pretty light wing loading and I don't believe the build is too difficult. One other piece of advice: make sure your covering scheme makes the bottom of the plane easily to distinguish from the top. With two wings, it can be a bear to tell which side is up. |
RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
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ORIGINAL: jagnweiner With two wings, it can be a bear to tell which side is up. Also makes orientation difficult |
RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
ORIGINAL: Kavik Kang I plan on using a bi-plane as my second plane, but I am going about it in a specific way. I am very good at video games and pick up things like controlling these RC planes very quickly, so I have worked out an "accelerated" learning process to get me into a plane I really like as soon as possible. I got the simulator about a month ago and make sure to fly for at least an hour every day. I don't even plan to get a trainer until spring, so I'll have months of daily simulator experience by that time. Then I am am going to use the Arrow 40, which has a semi-symetrical wing, as my trainer. I am going to use that plane possibly all next year until winter before I get my second plane. After all of that, I plan on getting a Super Skybolt as my second plane. I've been told it lands very easily and is a reasonable choice if you think you will be a fast learner and have the patience to wait until you know you will be comfortable with it. So I really think it might depend on who you are. If you know you are an ace at video games and other similar activities, you can probably go at a faster pace than the general recomendation. I think sometimes the "establishment advice" in this hobby has somewhat of a generational gap aspect too it. As for the Ultimate, I haven't flown real plane yet but if the simulator is any indication that one may be a bit much as a second plane. It is seriously maneuverable... |
RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
ORIGINAL: Kavik Kang I plan on using a bi-plane as my second plane, but I am going about it in a specific way. I am very good at video games and pick up things like controlling these RC planes very quickly, so I have worked out an "accelerated" learning process to get me into a plane I really like as soon as possible. I got the simulator about a month ago and make sure to fly for at least an hour every day. I don't even plan to get a trainer until spring, so I'll have months of daily simulator experience by that time. Then I am am going to use the Arrow 40, which has a semi-symetrical wing, as my trainer. I am going to use that plane possibly all next year until winter before I get my second plane. After all of that, I plan on getting a Super Skybolt as my second plane. I've been told it lands very easily and is a reasonable choice if you think you will be a fast learner and have the patience to wait until you know you will be comfortable with it. So I really think it might depend on who you are. If you know you are an ace at video games and other similar activities, you can probably go at a faster pace than the general recomendation. I think sometimes the "establishment advice" in this hobby has somewhat of a generational gap aspect too it. As for the Ultimate, I haven't flown real plane yet but if the simulator is any indication that one may be a bit much as a second plane. It is seriously maneuverable... Bill, AMA 4720 WACO Brotherhood #1 |
RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
I second most of what all the previous modellers stated. BUT, I want to add thet I would not even recommend a bipe to a new builder either. I have built a bipe (BUSA Phaeton 90), it was easy to fly, but it needed an experienced builder. You have to deal with the incidence of 4 wings, strust, etc. Most of them are not for the inexperienced builder.
Remember always that the bigger the planes, the better they fly. Said that, let me tell you there is nothing wrong with building your third plane while you are learning to fly your first:-) I had a "stick" as my second plane and I recommend it to anyone that wants to listen:-) I am currently flying a bipe (Great Planes Curtiss Hawk, an ARF) and it is very, very easy to fly (and see), has a gas engine. As a second plane I would recommend something along the lines of a Four Star 60 or one of the many Stick models available (like the H9 or GP 60 size). Good luck. A simulator helps a lot, but is not substitute for the real thing:-) Gerry |
RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
The boy is absolutely correct. There definitely is a "generational gap aspect" here and with that attitude, it will remain so.
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RE: Bi-plane as second plane?
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder ORIGINAL: Kavik Kang I plan on using a bi-plane as my second plane, but I am going about it in a specific way. I am very good at video games and pick up things like controlling these RC planes very quickly, so I have worked out an "accelerated" learning process to get me into a plane I really like as soon as possible. I got the simulator about a month ago and make sure to fly for at least an hour every day. I don't even plan to get a trainer until spring, so I'll have months of daily simulator experience by that time. Then I am am going to use the Arrow 40, which has a semi-symetrical wing, as my trainer. I am going to use that plane possibly all next year until winter before I get my second plane. After all of that, I plan on getting a Super Skybolt as my second plane. I've been told it lands very easily and is a reasonable choice if you think you will be a fast learner and have the patience to wait until you know you will be comfortable with it. So I really think it might depend on who you are. If you know you are an ace at video games and other similar activities, you can probably go at a faster pace than the general recomendation. I think sometimes the "establishment advice" in this hobby has somewhat of a generational gap aspect too it. As for the Ultimate, I haven't flown real plane yet but if the simulator is any indication that one may be a bit much as a second plane. It is seriously maneuverable... Bill, AMA 4720 WACO Brotherhood #1 Just wanted to say that Bill's post above is the best post I have ever read. One can only hope that it sinks in. Pete |
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