Safety question
 

OK, this has been bugging me since last week when it happened. I didn't say anything to the guys at the field because I'm the new guy and I'm not even sure I'm right.


We had a plane go down in the bushes at the far side of our field. My instructor went out with the guy to dig thru the blackberry brush and get it.

While they were out there Two other guys started flying again. This in and of itself is probably ok, theres a lot of airspace that would have been safe I suppose, so I wasn't too concerned.

Then one of the guys, a teenager (19 I think) Starts doing his usual hard core aerobatics RIGHT OVER the area these folks are digging for a plane in. Now the banter from my instructor earlier when he arrived had been he loses planes because he flies them so hard, so all I could think was "geeze he gonna put that thing in right on top of them..."

I fully expected my instructor to talk to them both when he came back about it, but he didn't say a word about it.

Should I have said something? is it ok to fly when theres people down field getting an aircraft? Am I overreacting, or am I right that at the very least they should have kept there aircraft in airspace well away from those out getting a plane back?

(PS the plane they were fishing out was an old WWII warbird, I thought was a T-38 but its more like the Avenger without the tail gun that went in on maiden. Engine died and the pilot tried to turn too sharply to bring it around, tip stalling it . No real damage done, leading edge damage on the wing but easily repairable.)

RE: Safety question
 

Personally, I would have said something. Its not right to fly when someone is across the runway getting a downed plane. Its not safe either. They were in the wrong and you could have pointed it out and not been wrong.

RE: Safety question
 

The whole point of a flight line is to keep planes from being overhead. If you were looking for a plane in an area where flying would normally take place then everyone should have stayed on the ground, or kept their planes from being over the area where you were searching. You definitely would have been right to say something.

In the future if you see something that you think is unsafe, but you're not sure whether you should or shouldn't say something, phrase your concern in the form of a question. For example, in this case, you could have asked a person in a leadership position in the club something like "is it safe for him to be flying over us while we're out here searching?" Most likely this would have woken them up and caused them to tell the kid to ground the plane.

RE: Safety question
 

I understand your reluctance to speak up, but think about how you would have felt IF there was an accident and you could have prevented it.

Always speak up when you see something that could cause someone harm.

RE: Safety question
 

Well this didn't take long.

I would guess this was a resounding YES I was right and SHOULD have spoken up since I was still at the flying side while they were out there.
Next time, (I'm hoping there isn't a next time) I will say something, and if necessary report it to the club safety officer.

RE: Safety question
 

Absolutely. If you see something unsafe say something about it.

Ken

RE: Safety question
 

You shouldn't have to take it to the safety officer, unless after you point out that there are people "over there" the pilot doesn't either land, or fly over a completely different section. Everyone else is dead on. The pilot should have stayed down, or flown over somewhere else. A regular Joe would have helped look for the plane anyway.... Been there..:D

At least you thought about it, now you know. Sometimes it takes one or two people to recognize a situation and speak up before some people get their heads on straight.

RE: Safety question
 

If someone had dediberately done that over my head and it appears that was obviously the case then far more than words would have transpired.

This needs to be delt with now! Not next time, this selfish and dangerous individual is not going to change on his own it will only get worse. It makes no differance at all who's buddy he is or how great a pilot he thinks he is.

flagrantly flying over anybodys heads is so irresponsibile that many would even suggest that it is criminally irresponsible.

Talk to any of the club officers now.

John

RE: Safety question
 

Flight line safety is always an issue. One that shouldn't be second guessed. If your first though is that "this isn't safe" 99.95% of the time, it isn't safe.

Guys have brain farts, and do some dumb things. Not all the time, but now and then. Then there are those whose complete meal consist of beans, boiled eggs and other gas producing food that all goes to their head. Call them out first and every time.

I was at the field on Thursday and one of our glider guys was out. He was showing one of our officers how to hand launch. I watched one or two passes over the pits with his glider. Then, I had just taken off and this huge shadow swooped over my head. Scared the snot out of me. I brought my plane around and landed then walked over and ask them if "flying over the pits included gliders" Humm, and hawss and finaly a guess so. Later the glider guy came by and appoligized. He hadn't though that he was over the pits.

It is really easy to get distracted and disorentied when flying. You are so focused on the plane, you forget what is on the ground below it. That isn't an excuse, but something to be aware of. Keep in mind where you are flying. The safety zones are set up for a reason.

Don

RE: Safety question
 

Aerobatics over a crash site with searchers looking is definately out. That said, our field is surrounded by dense alders and bog. On occasion, when a plane is down and we cannot locate it, we will ask one of our experienced pilots (who hopefully witnessed the crash) to overfly the line along which the plane went down. Helps the searchers narrow their search corridor.

That's a long way, however, from full-on aerobatics overhead. That ain't cool.

Besides, where does he get off flyin' instead of lookin'? Betcha others helped last time he planted one!

J

J

RE: Safety question
 

A little clarification.

I was no longer helping in the "search" either. The three who were out there were the pilot who lost his bird, my instructor and the pilots girlfriend. The aircraft had essentially been located and while we all offered to help dig it out no one had the gear for it so the pilot and my instructor told us not to, and went in swinging sticks to get thru the blackberry vines since no one had a machete...

However, that said, I was disturbed by the aerobatics guy, and should have said something. I will mention it to my instructor next time out. Hopefully he agrees and just wasn't paying attention to the pilots while he was busy getting scratched up by vines.. In any case, I pray I never put my plane in over there... (THICK bushes to chop thru)

RE: Safety question
 

It doesn't matter if someone is on the end of the runway looking for a plane, or standing there picking his nose. It isn't cool to overfly someone. Two of my worst crashes were on landing approach. Another on take off. All near the end of the runway. Get the picture?

We have a farm road that goes all the way around our field. I get nervious when someone has their car near the ends of the runway. All aproaches to the runway end when someone is retriving a plane. Period. A quick talk with the 3D guy would be in order. Anyone who disagrees with that talk should be on the receiving end of an even harsher and longer talk.

Don

RE: Safety question
 

Adui, You were probably right by NOT confronting the guy who was flying although he was in the wrong. If you would have confronted them while they were flying they could have blamed you in the event they had an accident.

The best place to bring this up is at the next club meeting. Bring the incident to the officials attention and let them deal with it. There might not be any disciplinanary actions taken, but they will rewrite the rules, post the rules, and make everyone who fly's at the field sign that they have read and understand the rules. This should have been done anyway.

The first step to a safe flying environment is education.

RE: Safety question
 

I think its OK to continue flying while a downed airplane is being recovered. But I think the area they are in should be avoided by a wide margin. Aerobatics over their heads ? Not good judgment at all. Thats some serious stupidity . I doubt behavior that stupid could be altered with words. You need a rolled up newspaper or maybe a taser.

I've met some of the greatest people in the world in this hobby. There are some very nice, and young at heart people that know how to enjoy themselves and let the little child come out to play. But I've also met some of the dumbest people also. This hobby brings together folks from all incomes and stratums and allows them to be best buddies. Thats great. But sometimes you also run into the scum of the earth. Believe it or not, there are drunks and liars and swindlers along with thiefs, malcontents, the mentally ill, and the simple. I've even flown with one old German from Brazil that I still believe was a Nazi. So..........keep your gaurd up. You ain't seen nothing yet !

I also flew at a site that had hostile terrain around it. There was a swamp with reeds about 12 feet tall on one side and dense woods on another. We also adopted the technique of having one pilot orbit the crash site while the rest of us postioned ourselfs beneath it in the woods. Then when the orbit ship flys away and lands, you wiggle the sticks and listen for the servos. Works like a charm.

RE: Safety question
 

I think something should have been said, although, being the new guy there, it should have been done tactfully.

Not, "Hey, don't fly over there, there are guys under you!"

But rather, "You might want to avoid that area while they're looking for their plane." (Followed by an inaudible, "You idiot")

RE: Safety question
 

or "hey, cool, I didn't know it was a good idea to fly erratically right over someone's head. When you're finished I'm going to try that myself (inaudible cursing)."

RE: Safety question
 

I agree Minn, 100%. It's best to be tactful, especially since you're new there. But that being said, safety is something that tends to get overlooked at the flying field when people are there to have fun but people need to be reminded of it sometimes.

RE: Safety question
 

What cracks me up is the guys who always "Preach" safety at the club meetings, are the biggest violators. When I see an extreme safety violation, I take care of the issue myself. I don't sweat the small stuff. Have a great summer.

RE: Safety question
 

There was plenty of time during the engine run up and carrying to the flight line or taxi'ing to the line to say something to the guy without having to wait until he was actually airborne to say something. I'm not chastizing here, just bringing up a point that someone mentioned about saying something while the guy was flying. He could have been warned off before he took off, a simple reminder that there were people under the potential area of flight and that he should wait until they were done with their search and recovery.

It's often tough for a new guy to speak up because he may 'not know the rules' of that club or not be willing to be subjected to an arguement with someone that may lable themselves as a 'seasoned pilot'. We all know better, and we all have those sorts at our clubs.

We have the types that refuse to use the pilot stands. And those that will not announce their presence on the flight line before taking off (a reminder that you are getting ready to fly, and asking if anyone is going to land while you are walking out to the runway centerline to take off). A simple ON THE RUNWAY is sufficient in such cases.

Anyway, we understand that you probably hesitated because of the 'new guy status' and it is a live and learn thing. The next time, though, you will probably remember that it is time to say something before an accident happens.

Every accident has a chain if events leading up to it. You could be the one that breaks that link that ends the chain and an accident is prevented.

CGr.