High wing planes
 

Edit: I guess what I'm really looking for is a semi-scale trainer - Hangar 9 Cessna Value series?

I think I might even want to consider a .60 size trainer, one which looks really nice, if there is such a beast.

I love flying my Dolphin, but would like to have another plane around, maybe equally challenging but a bit slower, so .60 might be the way to go.

Are there other cubs or cessnas that fly similar to the Avistar?

Thanks.

RE: High wing planes
 

Even that those planes have the wing in a high position, they aren't trainers, and in my personal point of view they qualify for a third plane. Do not rush, you have tasted the lack of confidence jumping from a trainer to a Phoenix Dolphin, I would suggest (against your position) to go for an avistar (which is way more aerobatic that a common trainer). Build confidence and then go for a low wing trainer.
That is just my opinion.

RE: High wing planes
 

So you'd like a nice high wing large size aerobat with a moderate engine size. Sounds like a Cub/Taylor Craft/Citabria/Super Dec would be appropriate. These are a class of very similar aircraft, originally designed (full scale) as high wing aerobatic trainers. They can be built as clipped wing versions (very common in Cub's) that improve the aerobatic capabilities. These planes are NOT trainers, but can be flown in a very relaxing manner, or run thru beautiful scale aerobatic routines. They also look great on floats.

This class of plane is often a second or 3rd plane. Better as a 3rd, since they're all subject to things like ground loops, and they don't self correct to the same degree as a trainer. Some are also a bit snappy, I hear. Generally, tho, they're quite docile and predictable, especially when flown "scale".

The beauty of a cub type aircraft is also in their size. You can fly a HUGE cub on a .60 size engine. 80" wouldn't be out of the question. Hangar 9 has a 107" (I think) 1/4 scale cub that flies on a 1.00-1.20 size engine, for example.

More trainer time wouldn't hurt you either, but if you want scale, this is where I'd head. Personally, I'd just get another trainer, and take the time to really grow with it instead of just whacking the sticks about until it does something or crashes. Your posts here point to someone who hasn't even nearly mastered his trainer yet. That's why 2 (or is it 3?) are dead. Slow down, fly, fly, fly, and bring it home in 1 piece each day. It'll take you years to truely outgrow a trainer. Most trainers are retired, crashed or forgotten just when the pilot is beginning to be able to learn from it.

I've been flying 3 years now. My 3 channel .25 trainer has tought me a whole bunch just in the last couple outtings.

J

RE: High wing planes
 

http://www.sigmfg.com/cgi-bin/dpsmar...FV4.html?E+Sig Look for the big scale Rascal. Good looks and more agile than a trainer. RCKen did a review on it too and he loved it.

RE: High wing planes
 

Oh yeah a Super deacathlon, a clip wing cub, a Citaboria , Beaver

Too bad they don't make Ace-4-40 or 4-60 anymore. You can bash is just as easy as a 4*
Mid or sholder wing. Maybe a 4* mid wing ?

There's plenty of sticks type model in the market..if your looking at arf

RE: High wing planes
 

Jburry, I guess you hit it right on the mark. I prematurely crashed my trainer, getting bored and being stupid. I really was bored with the trainers though. I am flying well with my Dolphin, but would like a more relaxing plane in the hangar as well. Something inside me doesn't want to go back to a trainer, unless there's one that looks really great (semi-scale). I think I would be bored with an Avistar. I am curious about going to .60 size, and you mentioned some planes that you know I want to look at, while you know I could also still benefit from a trainer. I really don't understand what I would learn from the Avistar that I won't learn from the Dolphin; it is still a forgiving plane - low wing, but has low wing loading and has some dihedral.

Where I'm at now: Crashed 2 trainers, being bored, being stupid, trying to show off. One thing though is that it might just go with the progression - did you crash planes by the time you were flying inverted patterns and doing some nice aerobatics? Even people with experience can make a mistake and hit down instead of up when doing rolling inverted maneuvers. I was slightly challenged by the Nexstar's tendency to roll, and really dive with rudder input. I could land the Avistar practically sideways in a 15mph+ cross wind. Used rudder to do many things, from turning to landing, just not inverted yet. Now I have the Dolphin. The rudder is much bigger, so I am spending time learning how it affects the plane. I am also working on learning the descent rate, so that I can land a little slower. I am practicing hammerheads and knife edges, as they are moves that require lots of rudder use. I don't like planes that self correct. I can return the plane to level when I am ready; this is a feature that I really don't need or want (self correcting). I am getting very proficient at Cuban 8's, Immelmann turns, and similar moves. I am starting to use rudder to track in a straight line while doing loops. As I write this, I'm thinking about what I really want...something larger so I don't get disoriented as easily, something that might fly a little slower if I want it to, but can still perform like the Dolphin.

I just looked at the Taylorcraft and the Citabria, and the Decathlon, and would LOVE one of these planes. Are any of them available still as ARF?

I guess I'd like to hear why or why not I should get one of these - you think I should go back to a trainer? Why (just curious, not saying you'd be wrong)? I've been without a plane for 2 weeks after a crash, and was even without my Dolphin for 3 days. I want to have another plane for relaxing flight and for these kinds of situations. Looks are very important to me, especially for a high wing plane. Again, I just don't see what I'd get out of another Avistar that I can't get from my Dolphin, so that's why I want a scale/semi scale high wing.

RE: High wing planes
 

I'm not sure I understand how a trainer is boring..... When powered more than adequately, and with control throws increased and the CG set at between 29 and 31%, they're very spirited aircraft to fly. Scale looks don't mean a damn at 50' or more away, and the air sure don't care about the pilot figure inside (I do tho, planes with empty cockpits look wrong).

Trainers do have a significant self righting in roll from dihedral, but for the most part their dive-pull-out behavior is a result of a forward CG. Moving that rearward will reduce the tendancy. It'll also increase that elevator sensitivity. Don't be afraid to move it rearward as you progress, but be very careful about going rear of 33%. There be dragons. Learning to counteract roll and pitch coupling is a valuable skill. It may seem that a nexstar rolls and dives with rudder, and it does. But with a little practice, you can correct for it. A little more practice, and you'll correct for it and swear you never did. Many more planes in your future will exhibit this trait, and mastering it on an inexpensive trainer will really help save that SE5A one day.

I know I'm beating on you, but it's from my own experience. 2 years ago, I was given a 3 channel .25 size trainer airframe, which I completed and learned with. My next plane (for all intents and purposes) was that P51 you see in my avitar. That was my aileron trainer, my first warbird, my first low wing, and my first 100+mph plane. Boy, what a handfull! My cautious nature has kept it in one piece thus far, but it had no right to survive!

I now fly the 'stang or the trainer about equally frequently. There are may days I just don't have the mental capacity to fly that stang.

For orientation, practice will help lay that to rest, tho size does help here. One day last year, flying the murdourous mustang, it all just clicked. I don't fly from the pilot stations anymore (tho you'll see me standing there). I fly from the cockpit. Keeping orientation while flying a grey plane on a grey overcast sky requires me, the pilot, to know what I'm about to attempt, to know how it's going to go wrong (if it does) and to have a plan and room to execute that plan. Just flying about thinking, Ok, now a roll, thena loop, then an immelman is asking for trouble. Instead think "next circuit, enter s & l, Loop with roll at top, slow roll away, immelman, downwind... Before you start the circuit. Each pass is a little air show, with one 2 or 3 manouvers. When you do exactly as you intended, precisely, almost every time, you're learning to fly.

J

RE: High wing planes
 

I think you want something to toss around and still can fly like a kiiten at a slower speed.

The something extra, magic, uproar,contender or those profile types models with thicker airfoil.
They have larger control surfaces so you're not fighting the model to toss them around
but fly relative will at slow speed on low rates. They're not designed for speed.
Their wings might not be as long , but they're wider and still mintain decent wing load.

when you crashed your trainer...was it becuase they didn't roll back around fast enough ?:)
when you where only 1 mistake off of the deck

or you can experiment with you're current model by using a different size/pitch prop
or move the throttle stick back and forth every so often.lol

RE: High wing planes
 

Jburry, I don't mind being beaten on, it's probably what I need;)

Flyx, I crashed my plane(s) because I was trying one move after another, not planning anything out. With the Nexstar, I was doing barrel rolls, lower and lower, with no relaxing flying time in between, and the last one just seemed to take up a lot of vertical height. I missed by about 5 feet, maybe less. The Avistar I was just not planning things out, and the plane got a little far away (to my right), and I tried to do something fancy to turn the plane around and got disoriented, while being only 1 mistake high. It got into a dive and I chose the wrong direction for elevator.

I guess I just want another plane, to have two in my hangar. I don't need the next in progression from my Dolphin yet, and don't want something too similar, so the high wing aerobat seemed like the likely choice.

I don't know why I think the trainers were boring. I thought they were very easy to fly, and I like a challenge. Probably because I didn't learn how to master them yet. I was annoyed at the dihedral fighting the rolls in my cuban 8's. If there was a nice looking trainer, again, I would get it. Sure you can't see it when it's that high, but really a nice low pass once in a while to see my plane flying really brings me some satisfaction. I really enjoy scale looks.

I just don't see the advantage of going back to a trainer when I have a 'low wing trainer'. What can I learn from a trainer that I can't learn on a Dolphin?

So does it make sense for me to get a Decathlon or something?

Thanks a lot for all the input.

RE: High wing planes
 

gaRCfield,
I really am not trying to be overly harsh or hurtful here, because I really do wish to see you succeed. But in all honesty I think that you really need to slow down and work on your flying skills. While you do say that everybody makes a mistake and dumps a plane you are correct, but you have had 3 (if I remember correctly) crashes in the last month or so. That's not a "dumb thumbs" mistake, but rather that is trying to fly beyond your skills. Part of the problem with pilots that advance fast like you are is that they never really develop the skills that they will need for more precise flying. Many times pilots like this will crash a lot of planes and get frustrated and quit the hobby. In order to advance into the "fun" parts of this hobby you really need to spend time and perfect the "basics" of flying first. Many of the things you have said recently show that you still need to work on the basics. While it may be boring, trust me you will be rewarded in the long run if you take the time now.

You state above (and in other threads) that you don't want a "boring" plane. In my experience there is no such thing as a boring plane, but rather there are only boring pilots. I can't count how many times I have seen pilots think that they need to move up to another plane because their plane is boring, yet they are totally shocked when they are shown what their plane is truly capable of. Ask InsaneMoonDoggie about his 4-star last year. I went to a fly-in in Minnesota and since I couldn't take any planes with me I relied on others letting me fly their planes. Robbie (Insane) offered to let me fly his 4-star but apologized that it wasn't much of a plane and I would probably be bored with it. To make a long story short, I flew is plane and absolutely wrung it out and when I landed Robbie's jaw was on the ground. His only words were "Damn, I didn't know it could do all of that". Before that day Robbie was getting ready to sell his 4-star because it was "boring", but after that he started to explore what it could do and if I remember correctly he still has it and it is one of his favorite planes now. So what I am trying to say is that it's a pretty good probability that you haven't explored everything your planes can do. I've been flying for 12 years and I still have my trainer, and I still fly it all the time. It's an absolute blast to fly it and do aerobatics with it.

My best advice to you would be to back up and get either a new trainer or a good second plane (4-star or Tiger II) and fly it until the covering comes off of it. When you can consistently push those planes through a good set of advance aerobatics you might be ready. When you can do an entire tank of fuel shooting touch and goes and never have a bounced landing or a prop strike it you might be ready. When you can take off, roll inverted, fly the entire circuit of the field at 20', roll back and and land you might be ready.

Like I said, I really am not trying to hurt your feelings because I really do want to help. I've seen guys in the same boat as you more times than I can count. To be totally honest with you, I was the same way, and I payed for it with a LOT of crashed planes too!! But trust me there, the time you invest in getting the basics down will be rewarded later on in your flying career.

Hope this helps

Ken

RE: High wing planes
 

gaRCfield,

After you’ve soloed and you think you’re beyond a trainer is when you probably need to fly one the most. There is nothing wrong with an Avistar and its capability. I regularly show my student early on in their flight training the performance capability of their trainers – be it a NextStar, Alpha 40/60, Sky Raider Mach I, etc, and they are very surprised when they see how much capability their plane has. What you need to work on now is precision in your maneuvers. Don’t just pull elevator and say that was a loop – look at all the aspects of a loop and how to make the loop perfectly round and track straight, the snaps enter/exit perfectly level, spins that come out exactly on the heading as entered, rolls that like they are on a string – no heading or altitude deviation. Flying a more advance plane is one thing, flying it well with smoothness and precision is another. When you can fly an Avistar as smooth as somebody flying an Extra or Yak-54, then you’ll really enjoy it when you move up to that class of plane.

For me, I don’t care what the plane is, I enjoy flying them all – from a 2M glider or Slow Stick to giving instruction on a basic trainer to flying a pylon racer, pattern plane or WWII scale. And a lot of times I enjoy just taking a trainer up and shooting nothing but touch-n-go’s.

I’d suggest getting another Avistar that you’d be more comfortable with and working on the precision aspect. Do some research on aerobatics and practice, practice, practice.

Hogflyer

RE: High wing planes
 

Thanks guys.

The Dolphin is flying perfectly right now, and after the crashes I've had I am working on perfecting basic flying, and throwing in a couple of maneuvers just to force myself to use more rudder. What I'm gathering from all this is to keep flying my plane, and learn to fly it perfectly, and not crash it beyond repair. I will fly the covering off, like Ken suggested, while making effort to not fly beyond my skills. I have learned a bunch through all these crashes, and now when I do try something difficult, I go into it with a good line, with plenty of altitude, with a plan, and in a good position (not too far away, not too far to the sides).

The Dolphin is a low-wing trainer. It's a copy of the Four Star, "A good second plane", and I believe is the right plane for me to be flying right now. I am challenged, but not nearly beyond my ability, so it is a good fit. If you think I CAN'T learn "skills for precise flying" with the Dolphin, then I would accept that as a reason to buy another Avistar, but I don't think this is the case (in my novice opinion).

Thanks for the advice. I won't buy another plane for a while, and if I absolutely have money burning a hole in my pocket, I will get something like a Sig Kadet or Rascal, which are decent looking trainers. I definitely admit that I have a lot to learn, especially before advancing beyond the Dolphin, but I really think the Dolphin is the right plane for me right now.

This hobby is addictive, which I'm sure you all know, and I guess the time off from flying (between days), with nothing to assemble in the spare room, gets me thinking about this stuff (buying another plane).

RE: High wing planes
 

If your hung up on the looks of a trainer, maybe go with a high wing Big or Ultra Stick 40, 60, or 120 sizes. Many variations of it out there, and it is a great flying flat wing trainer/2nd plane that can perform most manuvers very well, but can slow down and land like a trainer. Heck they even offer them with flaps to add in the fun.

RE: High wing planes
 

GaRCfield,
Don't make the mistake of calling the Rascal a trainer like I did when I reviewed it. That is a plane that is very very sweet. While it can be mild like a trainer, it is very capable of doing so much more than most planes. The first time I flew I was totally shocked with what it could do. For instance, a CLIMBING knife edge the entire length of our flying field!!! [X(] This is an incredible plane.

Ken

RE: High wing planes
 

Recently a pilot told me that they shouldn't have purchased a Nexstar because it can't do any aerobatics. I said nothing. The next time I took him up for training I did some rolling circles before giving him the airplane. That shut him up. :D

Trainers will do quite a bit. They don't do it as precisely as possible, but they will do it.

RE: High wing planes
 

Probably a good choice. If that money does burn a hole in your wallet, consider a new trainer with floats. Gives you a whole nother aspect to explore (float flying, it's a blast!), and the plane converts back to wheels with relative ease. Float flying is anything but boring. but do master take-offs and landings first. While water is softer than earth, it still tears'em up pretty good!

With a little basic building experience, you could bash about any trainer into a pretty pseudo-scale plane that you'll like, and that will fly same as ever. Just avoid adding weight, and keep the wing/stab/finn areas and incidences unchanged.

You've asked a question here to which you already had a perferred answer. We're working real hard to push you away from that, and it looks like it might work... This is great!

J

RE: High wing planes
 

Actually, sometimes I like to use my trainer when I am working on learning or practicing a particular manuever. The reason why is because the plane is adding NOTHING to the manuever so everything that is happening is because of my fingers on the sticks. The trainer will force you to perform a manuever by the book and do it properly. Many more aerobatic planes will allow the pilot to get sloppy and still look decent. But trust me, when you can do a manuever on a trainer and it is done properly you KNOW how to do it!!!! Try doing a single slow axial roll that is the length of your runway in a trainer and you'll see what I mean!! ;)

Ken

RE: High wing planes
 

I do that a lot. It really turns heads seeing an Avistar following a dead straight line using almost the whole 500' runway to perform a roll, hesitating slightly at inverted. :)

I get, "I didn't know an avistar can do that!" a lot. Everybody thinks you either need to pitch up before a roll or accept a slight nose down attitude after a roll. WRONG!!

If you're really feeling confident go to nsrca.org and download the sportsman pattern sequence and fly it. That will make you swallow a big piece of humble pie.

RE: High wing planes
 

Well that's why I asked it here! Thanks for all the help guys, it probably saved me from wrecking a nicer plane at some point.

Ken, did you get to fly the Rascal 40? There's a guy at my field with the 110; it's beautiful, and he does lots of knife edges and inverted flights with it. Really sweet, wouldn't mind a smaller one in my hangar (one day).

RE: High wing planes
 

They make a real nice 3 channel mini electric version too. Been oggling one myself, for improvised field use near my house, but the entry to electric is pricy with chargers and the like....

3 channel's (rudder, elevator, throttle) another strange but rewarding way to fly. I like to fly a bunch of split-s, immelman, stall turns, wingovers, cuban 8's, snap rolls and spins and whatever else I can coax out of the old girl.

Limitations of a plane are part of what make it fun. In fact, limitations is what aerobatics and flying is all about. We depend on them!

J

RE: High wing planes
 

GaRCField,
Yeah, I flew it. If you read my review of it the video posted on the review is me at the sticks.

Ken

RE: High wing planes
 

So would this be another good plane for me to have, or should I wait awhile? It's really a great bird to look at in the sky; I like the curved wings and such - right up my alley! I think I would be very happy with the Rascal, or even the Kadet Senior if it were a tail dragger. They're listed as trainers on Tower's site, and definitely meet my standards of a nice looking plane!

RE: High wing planes
 

GaRCField,
Actually, the Rascal may be exactly what you are looking for. I think you would do well with it.

Ken

RE: High wing planes
 

Ken, I'm sorry, I forgot to mention your review!!! I have never seen such thorough work. I love the pictures of the assembly, the flying, the tips, the straight forward and honest thoughts and comments. Very detailed. And nice flying to boot!!!

I think I will start saving up for this plane. I agree, I think it's exactly what I'm looking for!!! My god, I'm already excited about it. This really is an addicting hobby, but it's just SOOO much fun!!!

RE: High wing planes
 

It's is why you have to becareful...lol
When you put a sunday flier in the air...fly it like a sunday flier.
But of course..you forget after a couple of barrel rolls.:)

It's fun to do and out side loop 40" from the top and end up 5-10 off the deck inverted.lol
and snap it when it's in front of ya...just remember to push when you snap inverted.
practice it...2-3 mistake high, so you get use to pushing.lol