Calling All Instructors
 

As some of you know, I am a flight instructor (and flight training coordinator) for our club. I currently have a student that has a problem I've never seen, and I'm not quite sure how to approach the issue most effectively. The student in question actually has a habit of moving the sticks not enough - he's timid. I've worked with countless students that move the controls too much and have helped them remedy their issue with success, but never this. What teaching techniques do you use with a student that has this tendancy?

I must add that he *is* making good progress in his training with me, but this issue just doesn't seem to go away for good. It seems that when I help him solve this problem it always comes back the next time I see him. He does have a simulator and practices with it. I think this may be part of the problem. He goes back home and practices by himself, thereby ingraining this bad habit all over again. I think I may start suggesting he not use the simulator between practice sessions. I am hesitant to do this since he does use the simulator as a training aid and not a game. I think it's one of those subconscious things that he doesn't realize he's doing unless he has somebody with experience there telling him he's doing it. What do you think?

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

I would let him get about 3 mistakes high and then have him move the controls to their max. That way he will be able to see that he can control it. I was having the same problem when I was taking flying lessons (full size planes) Very timid on doing the stalls. My instructor ask why I was having so many problems doing the stall when everything else was excellant. I told him I was afraid I was going to spin it. OK, lets take it up and you spin it. Tried it and all I do was get a sprial, he said you can't even do spin when you try, so he took it and did a spin. After that I was not afraid to practice stalls. Just my 2c worth.

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

I'm new to this R/C thing, but am a CFI in full size stuff, and an airline captain so, that means I have about no knowledge!

But, are the simulators made to have dual rates so he could have a simulator model that is less sensitive and more like the flying model he has? Sounds as if he has his simulator model too sensitive. A less sensitive sim model will make him move the sticks farther to get the same reactions and could help you out with him at the field.

Chris...

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

Nathan, I'm not an instructor but I was once a student and I think that of the things my instructor told me to do, the ones that I most paid attention to where the ones he told me while on the ground not flying. He'd look at me and try to get me to understand the importance of each of his indications while making me aware of the possible setbacks there could be if I disregarded his pointers. Then on the air he'd tell me to remember what he had just pointed because one tends to freak out and forget everything once airborne. At the end of the day he suggested that I try to do mental exercises of the things we had gone over. I specifically remember leveling the plane when its coming towards you. The classic "point the stick towards the lower side", and he told me to imagine the situation over and over again and try to think of what I'd do. This turned out to be crucial. Maybe if you try this approach and tell your student to think about larger swift stick movements as he pictures the plane's response, over and over again, it might do the trick.

You could also try to get him to set his sim to a less responsive setup so the gets the idea of the real deal. The idea of giving him positive expo on the real situation seems wrong as he will get used to the Tx correcting his bad habit instead of flying the plane correctly. In the end you could just get him to uninstall that darn sim:D

Just my 2 cents.

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

I suspect this is an issue that will go away with stick time. How much time has the student actually spent in the air?

I like the idea of just getting them three or four mistakes high and telling them to go full on all the controls and see how easy it is to recover. It will take practice. The other technique to teach the student is to move the sticks slowly, but continue moving them until you get the desired response. You should be calling continuously out to the student at this stage to get them to move the sticks further. Get them to understand that when you say pull, it means pull more than you are. Same with right or left bank. Make this crystal clear on the ground before you take off.

Also, make sure they realize that you are there to prevent the plane from crashing. Let them get in to trouble intentionally and then recover the plane for them. Eventually they will learn to trust your abilities.

Brad

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

Nathan,

I don't know exactly where your student is at this point.

If he were my student I'd probably be thinking (if you haven't already done so) do some power on and power off stalls, unusual attitudes, and maybe some limited aerobatics like loops and aileron rolls to get him to free up his thumbs. I'd start with the aerobatics to get him comfortable with the seeing the airplane in different attitudes first before doing the stalls and unusual attitudes. In doing these maneuvers it will force him to commit to using the controls. Confidence maneuvers can do a lot to help take away some of the fears many students have. He should find doing loops and rolls fun and be more aggressive in their accomplishment.

The reason I say it will help confidence is that in Air Force Pilot training many of us students (T-37 phase) after having been demonstrated aerobatic maneuvers were told to go out into the training area to practice those maneuvers solo. Many of us (after comparing notes) went on area border patrol, until we got enough nerve to do our first solo roll, then a loop and so forth quickly realizing WOW this fun!!!! By the end of my flight I was almost ripping the wings of the bird. It sure put a tiger in our tank after a few rides. ;)

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

Nathan,
I've been instructing for about 9 years now and I've had a few students that have the same exact problem you are describing. Here's what I did to correct the problems. First of all, do exactly what you thought about doing, keep him off of the simulator. I've preached about the evils of simulators in here more than once, and this is exactly what I was talking about. If a simulator is used incorrectly it actually does more harm than good. The student is going home and doing what he "thinks" is right and in fact is making bad habits worse.

Now to correct the problem when you have him in the air, talk him through the turns. So it would sound something like this. "Ok, we're going to do a right turn now. Start adding in right aileron. More right , more right, more right, more right. Now hold there. Hold, hold, hold, hold, hold. Bring the stick back to center. A little left to level out. Now back to center." Trust me here, he'll pick up quickly on what he needs to do just so he doesn't have to listen to your voice. I know that sounds harsh, but trust me here, this technique works and it works quickly.

I actually picked up this one when I was watching the series "A day in the Life" on The Military Channel, it's about the Blue Angels. When they fly their routine the flight leader is ALWAYS talking the group through every maneuver, and that is how the base EVERYTHING they do in the air on. And when you watch them fly in close formation you realize that is works because the other pilots aren't looking out of the front of the cockpit. They have their eyes glued on the wingtip of the plane next to them and they are relying on the verbal instructions from the flight leader to guide them through the maneuver. So when I saw this I though to myself that this would be the perfect way to help my students that are having trouble when training. And it's worked great for me.

Hope this helps


Ken

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

I'm not officially an instructor yet, and have no advice to add. But I am as you all know teaching my kids. So I wanted to say thank you for this thread, it gives me advice on how to teach my kids as well!:D

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

Okay, I'll recommend he temporarially discontinue the use of the simulator. I have taught him loops, rolls, hammerheads, and figure eights in attempt to let his fingers loosen. I also taught the figure eights to aid in orientation since a properly executed figure eight will have the student controlling the aircraft at almost any angle. He's not ready for inverted flight yet. I have been talking him through things. I always show absolute confidence because I am confident, but more importantly, it puts the student's mind at ease. He still tends to tense up midway through the flight. When I see this I have him look away from the airplane (while I control it) and do shoulder rolls or something to loosen up. I give a debrief after every flight. I think the simulator may be the link causing the chain to break between formal instruction.

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

In 1982, flying T-38's four members of the Thunderbirds team went into the Nevada desert in diamond formation when the lead pilot misjduged the exit from a formation loop, and the other 3 planes followed him in. All were killed.

I distinctly remember an aerial shot of the crash site, with the impact points in an almost perfect diamond. I believe they pancaked in because you could see streaks on the desert floor leading out away from the initial point of impact. Three parallel streaks.

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

simulation CAN help in this situation.

To me it seems like he has full rates ON. That enables MAXIMUM throws in the simulator and you only need minimal inputs to fly.

He needs to use slow rates and reduce the throws even more by editing the plane. just so that more stick movement is required to fly the plane.

What's happening is he's getting used to flying with full rates on the sim and when he gets to the field, he's still using the same stick movements but is not realizing that the plane is now a trainer plane with (possibly) lower rates.

I've never been with an instructor. Yet, I've learned everything on a sim. Snap rolls, Knife edge and other maneuvers. I just recently have getting my self familiar with rollings circles... I would NEVER dare try that on my plane yet. It took me a while to get both sticks moving at the same time ( Aileron for the roll, then rudder to keep the altitude, aileron again to roll the plane and up on the elevator to keep altitude steady and roll again and now apply opposite rudder and level off) That's a lot of stick movement for a roll at a steady altitude. When I first started this manuver, I could not for the life of me get both my thumbs moving at the same time. I practiced for 3-4 hours and finally I could move my rudder while also controlling my ailerons and elevator. Now, I can do a steady roll in any direction.

Our best pilot at our field, who's only been flying for about 5 years now can do wonders with his extra 30%. Things that the veterans can only dream of doing, when we ask him where he learned it all....his only answer was that he Masters the maneuver on a sim first, then applies it to the plane.

Do NOT under estimate the power of the Simulator :P.

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

Either discontinue the sim or have him adjust the sim so more "stick" is needed.

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

Bob Mitchell,

I remember that sad event very well. [:o]

I was a squadron flight safety officer at the time when the report came in of the T-Birds crash.

For those who have never flown close formation the lead is your whole world, your attitude indicator! What the lead aircraft does so do you. Night formation in weather at night is a real challenge, much less doing precision demonstration aerobatics.

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

try giving him a target to fly to...for instance let him fly runway heading, then at the end of the runway have him make a hard heading change to aim at a distant tree or TV antenna..You can also have him do small loops the smaller the better...or teach him a snap roll....and above all else explain over and over again what he's doing wrong and that if he doesn't stop he can loose his plane as it flys off out of range....don't ever let him get away with his timid ways....
Let us know what happens

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

I have taken control of the plane and showed the person what I am trying to have them do. They watch the plane and then the sticks ( one person wanted to watch the sticks, thats where I got the idea ) , and I also talk them through different thinks they are having problems with.

Ya most want to over through the stick and snap them......[X(]

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

Nathan, I'm no where near being an instructor, but I'll pass along a couple things that may or may not help. First, when I started, there was another guy that had been training for about three months. He had a lot of experience in full size, but the model was not going well for him. My instructor told me I would have my wings firs, and I did, but it was a long process. Aftere he finally soloed, he wa progessing along at a much faster rate. I was talking to his instructor one day and commented on this. What was happining was he had perty much a one track mind. If he was listening to the instructor, he couldn't fly the plane. The instructor got fed up one day and just told him to fly it by himself, and he did. Turned out to be a fairly good pilot to. Don't know if this applies to your student or not.

The other thing is Expo. My instructor recommended a lot of Expo for me, I was one of your guy who banged the sticks. I was out to the field today trying to fly a plane I flew for a while last year. I had a number of issues after the repairs and it looked today as if I had solved the major problems, except the plane was twitchy on the ailerons. It turns out I had 35% expo on them and they just wouldn't do much of anything until I was almost mid way through the travel. No response, no response, bang to much response. I brougt it down and dialed in 65% and things went much smoother. I may even try cranking it up some more. I think I've been flying with too soft controls. Could it by your students TX is set up soft and his simulator isn't. You may try hardening up the controls and see how that works. Not more, just more sensitive.

Don

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

Nathan: Perhaps a little reverse roll playing could help. Put HIM in a situation that he has to recover from rather than you recovering for him. Of course, three mistakes high, but put him in a situation that you can recover from, but make HIM recover while you stand by on the buddy box. Perhaps that will 'shock' him into realizing how much stick is necessary to do certain maneuvers.

Also, if you are both using similar transmitters, ie. both on DX7's for instance, dial in some reverse exponential (a few percent opposite than what you would put in to soften the controls) and let him fly that way for a few flights, then slowly remove it.

CGr.

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

CG where have you been. I been having to have my Hazelnut and vanilla coffee by myself. Also, my homemade bagels with vegetable spread was to good to pass up.

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

Nate, that's A first for me, everyone I have ever seen or taught including myself was an over controler.
I think pulling him off the sim may be the right answer though so he doesn't reinforce the problem.
Sorry, never seen the problem before.
Gene

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

I've run into that several times. I tell them, "alright, now give it FULL left/right/whatever and in a few turns it seems to work itself out."

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

I remember reading someones training tips once and they had the student turn his back to the plane and fly off the voice of the trainer. Then have them turn around and do the same thing.

Someone else's idea, I was just paying attention.

Del

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

Full rates, no Expo and do maneuvers twice for him while talking what you are doing. 1st time let him watch just the plane while you explain how much and what stick(s) it takes to do the manuever he is watching. 2nd, do it again and let him watch just your sticks only, as was already mentioned. 3rd have him do the same single manuever over and over until he does it properly. I had a guy I was training for 4 months on our lunch hours and he just wasn't grasping the ammount of stick needed. This slow process eventually created the muscle memory he needed to consistantly fly the basic pattern manuevers. It seemed to really work well teaching flaring for landings, which is very challenging for new pilots managing throttle and elevator at the same time. With regards to a Sim, you really need to help him set it up so it flies like the real trainer, otherwise don't use it. Hope he catches on soon!;)

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

Nate: Try these, 1. take him, up about 3 mistakes and just say OK just fly and have fun. Get him to do anything he can and don't pull him out till the last second but talk him out of what ever he gets into that's uncomfortable for you.

2. Get another instructor to take the buddy box and you stand behind the student with your fingers on his ( the sticks ) and just take him through a bunch of manuvers. I've used this system a number of times and it has almost always helped. Now of course it's going to look like you are hugging him so if you are concerned about your manly hood ~~~~ get the other instructor to stand behind the student !!!! ENJOY !!! RED

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

I recall when I was in flight school, it seemed that those who had no prior flight training soloed sooner than those who did. Too many habits causing them and the instructor grief. These students were actually told "do it my way or your history."

May have to lay it on the line here if he wants to continue or not. if he keeps bring up "well on the simulator I". Then get on him.

We had a guy here who wanted to fly badly. Simple trainer and he was well aware the plane was nothing overly expensive yet he was always so nervous. One day he showed up sick and on meds. Best flying day he ever had.

RE: Calling All Instructors
 

He's really not bringing up the fact that he does things "his" way on the simulator. Frankly, I don't think he realizes that he may be reverting back to his old ways during practice sessions by himself. He's eager to please and is working very hard (and making fine progress); he just has this one issue that seems to be recurring and difficult to "put away" so to speak.

This guy is timid. I think getting on him would further shatter his confidence and may even make him difficult to train because his nerves will get worse. Everybody has a problem or two that is stubborn, but I can usually correct it with relative ease. I'm just a bit stumped since I've taken a few different approaches, all with limited success. I'll find one that will cause the concept to "click" in his head.