E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

So I made a post on here a while back, I was thinking about getting an alpha trainer dsm2. I had one last summer, but eventually crashed it. I currently have some parkzone Embers, which are great, and I have a parkzone sukhoi reserved, but I also have a thirst for something bigger, faster, and more powerful, but still easy to fly with my limited experience, and costing less than $300 for budget reasons. Oh, and it would be nice if it had a dsm2 transmitter included that I could use with my reserved parkzone sukhoi to save money.

At first I thought the alpha was my only option, meeting both my $300 budget constraint and having a dsm2 transmitter included. I already have glow engine support equipment, like starter, fuel pump, glow heater, etc.

I thought an electric would be nice for convenience, but couldn't find any as big or fast as the alpha for under $300 RTF, let alone with a dsm2 radio. I looked at the nexstar EP, but its way to expensive. The hobicco electristar was almost cheap enough with NiMH batteries, but is now out of production.

But today I found the E flite Apprentice. With dsm2 transmitter which I can use with my PZ sukhoi, lithium battery and charger, motor and everything for $299 RTF. But I have some questions about how well this will compare to an alpha trainer, or similiar 40 size glow trainer.

Top speed? Capable of takeoff from grass runway? (I think so, I saw this on a video). How well will it handle wind compared to the alpha? Payload? I was planning to possibly mount some small video cameras on it. Any other general thoughts on how this will compare to the Alpha?

Also, any other large, fast planes with dsm2, RTF for less than $300?

Thanks guys!

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

Complete apples and banannas here. The Eflite is 15 size foam airplane, the Hanger Nine is a 40 size glow wood plane. If your on a limited budget, yuo need to decide if your going electric or glow. Trying to do both on a budget is not good idea. If you want performance, glow is still cheaper.

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

I've been helping a new guy with his Apprentice for a couple weeks now...
It is a nice flying airplane, but as is it gets knocked around by the wind quite a bit. (it's quite light for it's size )
With the 3200mah 3 cell Li-Po it is also just a wee bit tail heavy IMO and with the recommended throw on the elev. it's rather touchy in pitch.

It will take off of grass well enough if the grass is short...

We reduced the elevator throw and it's easier for him to handle now...we also cut back on the ail. throws.

I think that a couple oz. of wt. in the nose or a heavier battery (or both ) will make it handle the wind a bit better.

Top speed? Not sure...seems fast enough for what it is...an E powered trainer...I wouldn't compare the Apprentice to the Alpha though...Apples/Oranges, ya know?:D

P-40...you posted while I was typing...Bananas/Oranges/Apples...:)

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

I know the planes are probably very different, as you say. But that's exactly why I'm asking about the differences in there capabilities. All else equal I would prefer to go electric, for convenience. The aprentice is the biggest, most powerful electric rtf I can afford, and one of the few with dsm2, and I'm curious how much performance I would be giving up compared to a glow rtf of the same price. I'm trying to decide whether I would be willing to give up this performance in exchange for the convenience of electric compared to glow. So yeah, i guess im just going through the glow vs electric debate. Though i cant really afford a balsa electric, so that complicates things. Thoughts? Thanks guys.

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

What happened to all of the gear from the Alpha that you crashed? You should have been able to salvage the engine and radio. Most 40 sized trainer ARF's are less than $150, and a lot of them are less than $100.

If you already have the field equipment for a glow plane, I would go that way. You'll get more air time with a glow trainer than electric.

Good luck

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

Nexstar is where it's at! It is a really cool plane and for the size it is head of its class. The electristar is also nice, I had one and sold it to get the nexstar. You can still find them occasionally on ebay. The apprentice is too light weight.

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

Mclina's suggestion is good.

Can't you salvage the stuff from your crashed Alpha?

I've flown the Apprentice and the Alpha.

I DO LIKE the Apprentice, and as electric trainers go, it's pretty good.

But that said, the Alpha ( or something similiar ) is a much better option IMHO.

It is MUCH easier to repair straight forward trainer type balsa planes, than it is foam ones.

Oh, they'll tell you that all you have to do is tape or glue things together again, but you end up with a plane that is never quite right again.
A premium is charged for replacement parts made from FOAM, something that is cheap and easy to produce...

With a Balsa plane, you run to a local hobby store, pick up some matching covering, and some stock balsa, and you can usually make things look as good as or better than new.

The Alpha flies faster than the Apprentice, and it will handle winds much better.

However given your experience level I would advise you to go ahead and move up to the next level.

Grab yourself a Tiger, 4*, Pulse or other low wing "second" plane as an ARF and put the stuff from your crashed Alpha into that plane.
This will not only keep the cost down, but you'll end up with a great aerobatic plane that will be a fun and speedy flyer.

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

As for using parts from the crashed alpha, I have considered it. The engine is broken. A couple pieces, I believe one of the needle valves and some other little piece, are broken off. I have those pieces, as they remained attached to the plane via the fuel hoses during the crash. I considered epoxying the engine back together, but I decided it was unlikely to stand the heat and vibration. Also the air intake was filled with dirt.

As for the radio, it may have been the cause of the previous crash, so I am hesitant to use it again. I believe the receiver battery died in flight. I had charged it overnight, but it was an ancient NiCad battery. (The whole plane was at least 5 years old, given to me by a relative). I was just cruising along in level flight when suddenly it went into a tight spiral dive, and stopped responding to inputs. And the transmitter battery would only last 20 or 30 minutes. So both batteries would have to be replaced, and the engine is probably questionable. Besides, I need a dsm2 transmitter for a PZ sukhoi I have reserved anyway.

I have looked at the nexstar, it looks like a great plane, but too expensive (>$400 rtf). I really like the nexstar EP as an alternative to the E flite apprentice, but it is even more expensive. It is at least $399 most places, plus the cost of a huge Lipo battery and charger, probably > $500 altogether.

The electristar was a much better deal. I wish they still made them. $199 plus battery and charger compared to $399 plus battery and charger for the nexstar EP. Obviously they had to quit making them to sell any nexstar EPs. I looked on ebay for one but all they had was a few spare parts. By the way, if anyone has one of these used, ideally with batteries and charger, at a reasonable price, I would be very interested.

The nexstars and electristar do not have dsm2 radios, which would be nice as well. It seems like the alpha is the only 40 trainer with a digital radio.

Considering a second plane would be nice too, but they don't seem to make many of them rtf, so I would have to use the old equipment to stay within budget. Although if anyone knows of a "second" (nontrainer) plane sold rtf, for under $300, ideally with digital radio, Id like to here about it.

I might give some more thought to using that old equipment though now that you mention it. I have to wait till I get back home in a couple weeks to check the exact condition of the engine/radio (Im in college now). Thats actually another reason Id like an electric, if I could find one reasonably priced, with glow 40 performance or close to it. Then I could take it back to college with me and fly it here, where glow planes are prohibited by ordinance on campus. There is a very large field area with several baseball, football, and soccer fields to fly.

Anyway, thanks for the help guys!

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

To play it safe, buy a new carb.

Take some old fuel and rinse out the engine throughly after removing the carb, muffler & glowplug

Try to flush it out repeatedly, and then lightly turn the crankshaft and check for any grittiness as if there were sand inside.

If you feel none. you are probably done.

If you feel something, don't push it, rather remove the engine backplate and flush the interior out too.




Get a new battery pack, they are fairly inexpensive.

Put the pack on the receiver with a couple of servos installed, and with the antenna down, do a range check.

If it passes, then while tapping lightly on the receiver move and hold the sticks into different positions.

If the positions vary when you tap, the receiver may be bad. If not you should be fine.


From the sound of it, fixing the engine is trivial.

You could fix this, and use the money saved to purchase a better DSM2 radio, than that included with the RTF's, which tends to be rather basic.

There is nothing wrong with that. You have the right engine, servos, and are merely missing a few items.


Remember that with electrics you'll also have to factor in the cost of additional battery packs ( I usually recommend 2-4 packs ), so you can fly while charging an already spent pack.

To get .40 glow performance you'll need at least 5000mAh 14.8v or higher voltage packs, an ESC capable of handling that voltage, an 800 watt motor, a computer controlled balance charger, maybe a power supply for the charger, etc.

All told that alone will run you more than you are looking to spend for a complete setup, even if you do it on the cheap.

Consider trying to utilize what you can salvage out of the crash.

Most places prohibit flying RC planes, even the electrics. ( Park flyers, HAH! Find me a government park that will not run you off. ) so you really should see if there are any RC clubs in your area.


= You also may be able to buy a used plane inexpensively from someone at one of these clubs. =


I've seen some amazing deals...

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

Parts for the EVO trainer engine are not too expensive. Even a whole new casing is only like $15. I had to replace a crankshaft in mine last year and it was only $15 or so.

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...prodDetailTabs

The other problem I see with buying the new DSM2 Alpha will be that it is not a computer radio and it has no model memory. I'm not sure how you would bind it to the Sukhoi and still be able to fly the Alpha. I'm sure someone with more Spektrum knowledge can help you here.

But it does sound like you are heading towards 2.4Ghz, so there may not be much savings by trying to salvage gear from the Alpha, other than servos.

Good luck

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

He's not going to save on the radio, but by using the components from the crashed Alpha to put together a Low Winger, he could save the cost of all of the items that add up.

e.g.

Engine
Switch
Servos


If he applies that against a computer controlled DSM radio and an airframe, he'll get what he wants for the amount of money he is talking about... and end up with a better radio to boot... one that could handle multiple planes exactly as you said.

And in a pinch, he could just use the old TX with the new airframe, and then save up for a DX7 later.

That gets him back in the air quickly.

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

I would also strongly encourage you to shop places like craigslist, I have found a LOT of good deals on there, and if you are patient and look around you can find lots of stuff. of my 6 planes and 6 engines, I have only bought 1 new plane and 1 new engine, the rest are all used and or loaned to me. Most clubs have people that love to help other people out, just ask if people have anything that they want to get rid of.

Jon

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

Ok I am beginning to like the idea of a sporty non-trainer plane, possibly using at least some old equipment from my crashed alpha. Especially since this plane is essentially meant to quench my thirst for speed and power, which my PZ Embers and eventually sukhoi cannot. But first, I came across this:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXHMY7&P=ML

which is an electric super sportster. It says ARF, but it includes motor and battery. Crappy brushed motor and Nicad though. Still, would this be able to come close to a 40 glow trainer at least in terms of top speed? If so, I could add a spektrum dx6i system and use the servos from my crashed alpha, and be within my $300 limit. Or, I could buy a cheaper dx5e system, and have about $100 left for either a lipo upgrade, or a brushless upgrade. I think you guys have convinced me to go with a glow plane, but I wanted to see what you think of this (or a similiar, ~50" wingspan, affordable electric sport plane).

But, since I think I will end up with a glow plane, how about this:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXJ575&P=7

Which is basically the same plane as above, but a little bigger and designed for glow. And its a kit. I would prefer ARF, but the ARF version is $50 more expensive. And I like this color scheme better. Use the 4 servos from the crashed alpha, and add a spektrum dx5e system, and I have a plane for $200 if I use the alpha's engine. Even if I add a $70-$80 glow engine, Im still under my $300 budget.

Heck, the 60 size kit is only $25 more, and 60 engines appear to be about $30 to $40 more, I could almost do that.

Not sure why I didn't realize before that a second plane was a realistic option, even staying under $300 with a digital radio. I guess I am just assuming based on what I have read on these boards that this is a suitable second plane, if not, please correct me. If its going to be really twitchy and unstable, I will hopefully have my PZ sukhoi when I get home in a couple weeks, which might be (sort of) useful for getting adjusted to an aerobatic plane. If its anything like the ember, it should survive when I crash it while practicing aerobatics.

Thanks again guys!

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

I have one of those, and actually it is a great flyer.

It comes with a powerful 540 brushed motor and gearbox. There is NOTHING wrong with this configuration.

The included ESC has a jumper on it. Flip the jumper and the plane will handle LiPo packs!!!!

Using LiPo packs increases the voltage ( it flies faster ), reduces the weight ( it flies faster and glides longer ) while increasing flight time.

The included NiCD pack weights a LOT, so you could use TWO LiPo packs in parallel to give you fantastic flight times.

Mine will fly for a good 30 MINUTES on batteries, before I tire and bring it in, with charge still left on the batteries.

I often get a "WHAT do you have in THERE!?" comments at the field.


Change the prop and you can increase pitch speed more than with the provided prop and you are set to go.

It is not as large as the ARF or Kit however.

I pulled the included motor out and replace it with a brushless motor and ESC on the cheap.

This turned it into a rocket, and people tell me it flies ( and sounds ) like a .40 plane when they see me flying it.

Nope, the Super Sportster EP uses Mini servos. Yours will not fit.

If you don't like the color, it would be faster to get the ARF and merely recover the white parts.

The Kit is going to take you far longer to build.... and it doesn't sound like you've built kits before.

The ARF may be the best option for you.


More, yes, but you left out the original cost.

You'll spend $120.00 or so on a new engine, alone.


No the Sportster, and the Pulse are very similiar flyers, they look somewhat the same as well.

Both are good second planes, for someone who does fairly well with landings on a trainer.

Both planes track straight on the ground, are great aerobatic flyers, will keep your interest, can be turned into "speedsters", glide very well.

The Sportster has held up for me fairly well.

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

FYI - the tower 40 size trainer ARF is only around $60 (with coupon) + S&H. That's about the cheapest trainer ARF on the market (including ebay), and it flies quite well.

I can't speak for all hobby shop owners, but most would happily take a look at your crashed engine and tell you what it would take to make it airworthy again free of charge. It sounds to me as if the bracket for the remote needle broke off. Honestly, you don't even have to fix that part for it to work, but the replacement part is very cheap.

You'll also need to test your receiver after having been crashed. If it does have any troubles, most often it's the replaceable crystal that is bad ($12). You also need to check the servos for possibly stripped gears after a crash. You definitely need to replace the receiver battery AND get a battery tester. It's extremely wise to check the batteries in your transmitter and receiver before each flight.

Do you have a flying club nearby? There is usually plenty of help to be had at your local flying field. They could help you setup a new model and trim for flight and even give flight instruction. Flight instruction is the best insurance against crashing your first time out. A good flight instructor would have shown you the tools (a battery tester) and would have tested the flight battery on your first Alpha before each flight. That plane might very well still be flying. It's VERY expensive to crash a lot of airplanes. I strongly suggest getting help until you are a proficient pilot. This is true of glow or electric.

The little Sukhoi will not be a good trainer. My advice would be to hold off on that purchase for a while and concentrate your limited funds on developing your piloting proficiency. Once proficient, you can go nuts and buy anything you wish. Don't be in such a hurry to throw away money crashing planes that are beyond your abilities. I always give this advice to all my students. You're in the most expensive phase of the hobby... the "accumulation phase". It's a phase where you WANT everything you see, and it's difficult to restrain yourself. (I've been there and done that!).

As far as glow versus electric goes, I'm a proponent of glow. I'm biased that way. But, since you already have all the stuff, glow is much better for training. Obviously, you can build any size plane and make it electric if you want, but considering the planes you've mentioned here, the glow plane handles wind and payload and rough landings FAR better (as would the same airframe with the appropriate electric setup). But the biggest advantage is frequency. For the same money, you can fly a glow plane MANY more times in a day than the electric. And at this stage, that's an important factor.

My 5 cents,
Tom

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

this is a bit more then the $300 BUT it comes with dx6i radio and i've heard lots of good things about it.

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...ProdID=HAN4425

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

I had looked at the PTS mustang, and for the most part it does look like a nice plane. I did not notice it has dx6i, I figured it was dx5e, that makes the $399 price a little easier to swallow compared to the $299 alpha. And the dx6i would make it easier to switch between this and my PZ sukhoi, without having to rebind everytime. And if I take off the removable droops and increase the throws it will probably fly more or less like a sportster or pulse (right? I am just speculating here, you guys know more about this than i do). And I can leave the droops on to make it fly like a trainer until I get practiced up again (havnt flown a glow plane since the alpha crashed last summer). And its RTF, so I don't have to do much building. I was looking at the manuals for the pulse and super sportster, and those require more building than I had expected.

The thing is, I was planning to get a nice 60 size mustang either next summer or in a few years, with retracts and flaps and a big 60 engine, when I am out of college and (hopefully) have money. This mustang appears to have flaps from the pictures, but no retracts. Who makes a mustang without retracts? It will look so unrealistic while flying. Actually, i was just looking at the pictures, and in the one where they show the transmitter and instructional dvd in the foreground, i think maybe i can see a wheel well on the bottom of the wing. Does this mean retracts could be added easily, given that it includes a 6 channel radio? Can anyone who owns one or has seen one up close confirm this? Note that Im looking at the MkII version that tubamike linked to. I could use servos from my crashed alpha as retract servos (right?). Also can anyone confirm that it has flaps? Appears to in the pictures, but don't see it mentioned anywhere in the description.

Even if there is no option to add retracts in the future, this does actually look like a rather good fit for me, given that its like a trainer that can be converted into a sport plane. I was beginning to think that if it turned out that I couldnt use my crashed alpha's engine, it was going to cost $400 or close to it to get a pulse or super sportster flying, and thats with a cheap dx5e radio, this has dx6i. If I can stomach $400, this really does look good, though I really didnt want to spend more than $300 at the most.

Wow I have went through a lot of planes in the last few days. Started out looking at an alpha or apprentice, then sport planes, now this lol. Thoughts?

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

the mustang has flaps, they come with 3 preset positions that you adjust manualy while learning to fly, but a couple servor's from your crashed plane can be added to make them functional flaps. also i don't think this can be fitted with retracs, the wheels are swepted forward on this mustang because it is for learning to fly on and it helps to prevent it from nosing over in the grass.

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

here's a couple youtube links

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EundN...eature=related

i stand corrected, it looks like it can be modified with retracts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHpxJ...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITiZy...eature=related

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

Yes the PTS can be modified, but it is major surgery to do so.

The OP has limited experience with this kind of thing, so it would not be advisable for him to consider as a salient point in his selection.

Otherwise the PTS is a very nice plane... however given his experience with the more docile Alpha, without aid, he may be biting off more than he can handle.

An instructor and a buddy box would be a wise move no matter what he gets.

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

back to the apprentice, spare lipo's are not to expensive if you know where to get them. i get all mine from hobbycity.com. the rhino's and zipph-h's are great.

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...idProduct=6354

if it wasn't for the fact thay you want a spektrum radio, i would have also mentioned the electrostick

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXUTZ8&P=ML

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

The electrostick is interesting, but like most of the big electrics, too pricey. Its $219, and I would have to add a spektrum dx5e system for $100, lipo battery for $100, plus a balancer for $20-$30, and a charger. That will probably be close to $500, and thats with a dx5e. The PTS mustang has a dx6i, and I suspect its performance would be far better, especially with the training attachments removed.

But like I said, a big electric would be nice, since I could ship it to college and fly it there, much easier than I could fly a glow plane there (I don't have a car at school to drive to a flying field where glow flying is allowed). Which is what initially made the apprentice so interesting, an affordable big electric at $299 RTF. But it seems that despite its 58" wingspan, its not really in the same league as nitro planes of similiar size. (Made of foam, as someone pointed out).

Right now, the Mustang MkII PTS seems like the best choice, and is probably what I will do if I decide I can afford the extra $100 over an alpha trainer. I think the mustang is a pretty good deal for the price with that dx6i computer radio, and it can be used as both a trainer and a sport plane. By the way, with all the training attachments removed, and a standard two blade prop, how will its performance compare to a sport plane like a pulse, super sportster, or similiar? And if I choose the mustang, I may seek help from an instructor for the first flight. Despite that I have basically self taught myself up to this point, its an expensive plane to crash.

Also, someone suggested at one point (maybe a different thread) that I should get a thing called a voltwatch onboard battery monitor, if I got an Alpha. I really like the piece of mind that something like that would provide, after losing my alpha to what was probably a receiver battery failure. Will one of these (see link) also work with the Mustang MkII PTS? I see no reason why it wouldnt, but want to make sure:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXHDJ2&P=7

Thanks guys

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

With the training aids removed, it is a quick flyer and more heavily loaded than any of the other planes.

The Pulse, Sportster, etc. all slow down and give you more time to react during landings, than the P-51 does with the aids removed.

The plane tends to yaw at takeoff too.

MAY is the wrong word to use, it should be "DEFINITELY WILL".

The PTS is a great trainer if you have help. By yourself it will have a short life.

Yes.

It is always important to check the state of your batteries before flying.

A voltwatch is a good idea, and you should also have a voltage meter with load, made for RC.

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

I plan to add a servo from my crashed alpha to make the flaps functional, will this help bring the landing speeds more in line with a trainer, or at least with a sport plane? And yes, I will definitely seek the help of an instructor.

Thanks.

RE: E flite Apprentice vs Hangar 9 Alpha...
 

With the droops, speed brakes, flaps & slower prop it comes in somewhat like a trainer, at very slow speed.

But with the included prop, it will seem not to have a lot of power. This is by design and often instructors are all too quick to remove the prop and the speed brakes.

The speed brakes slow the plane, and add a small amount of nose down tendancy, which counteracts the nose up tendancy of the flaps.

The plane was designed to act as a trainer when all of this stuff is used TOGETHER.

At worst replace the prop, but leave everything else on, for your initial flights.

As you get comfortable with the landings, you can start removing things.

Newbies tend to be quite hard on landing gear, as they have not learned how to make good landings.
They rip the wheel wires out, then blame the plane.

An instructor will help you get past this phase without trashing the landing gear.

You should use the fixed flaps as recommended for trainer mode, until you are about done with training.

Afterwards add the flap servo, not before.

If you can keep the plane in one piece through your first couple of dozen flights, you'll enjoy it as a sports plane all the more.

It does get buffetted around by the winds more than I would like, as it weathervanes into the wind a bit.

This makes it difficult for the novice to fly in medium winds. I would suggest avoiding winds over 6-8mph until you have MANY flights under your belt and are experienced with cross wind landings at lower wind speeds.