RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

Showtime:Location in WI is outside DLH on the South Shore near the Brule River.

Lots of comments here, mostly good.   I agree about the "grannys".  I guess you find them everywhere in life.  It is just difficult to be enthusiastic when someone comes on and basically tells you that you are doomed to failure, you are stupid, no-one would ever do that, and the IRS will audit you for life if you try.  On the other hand, there are gentlemen who say, "I wouldn't go about it like that, but to each his own..."</p>

With that kind of statement, a person just may ask, "Gosh, how would you do it" and build upon that.</p>

Perhaps this is also a charactor building thread.   I accept that 95% here that have responded want me to succeed albeit they have reservations about my course of direction.  I accept that I am "unconventional" to say the least.  But aren't we all our own men.  Just find the part that fits for you and enjoy that.  If none of it fits, leave the thread.  Seems there are a lot of posters who are waiting with baited breath.  But...   High winds and impending T-storms have eliminated any chance of anything but taxiing tonite, by my decision. 
Reports to follow...
DIVERGOFF:  Kolb TwinStar</p>

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

Paul,

There are a lot of different types of people on these boards, some are old crotchety and some are very cocky and opinionated, but for the most part they are good people. There are a lot of folks who have been in the hobby a very long time who have seen a lot of aspiring flyers take the self taught road only to fail and leave the hobby. Many here just feel the path with the highest success rate and highest "Stick with it" is the instructor, AMA field, buddy box, etc. path. Regardless of how untactful they may have been, they likely have good intentions and just want to see you succeed. Now, with that said, what you do with your money, time, and on your personal property is your own business and if a grown man has made a decision to do something (legal) then by god who am I to say you can't or shouldn't. Nobody here has the right to attack you, only to offer advice and opinion in a constructive way. Since early on you stated you were aware of the instructor issues but didn't want to go that route then that should have been the end of it.

I wish you luck and am looking forward to hear the stories, for better or worse.

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

Just remember, set the plane up for a gentle climb with throttle and elevator trim. Make gentle turns to the left. Use just the ailerons at first, don't mess with the elevator stick. If you get mixed up, orient the TX so the antenna is pointing in the direction of the plane. Look over your shoulder if you have to. As you make your gentle turns, apply ONE click of throttle up to climb. As you get too high, apply TWO clicks down to descend. When you get too low, apply TWO clicks up to climb to safety and throttle back ONE click to maintain altitude. Learn your turns first along with MILD throttle management. You'll learn from this that it's the ENGINE that make the plane go up, NOT the elevator. Crucial mistake when in trouble is to apply elevator to go up without enough throttle. The elevator points the airplane, the engine takes it up.

Good luck.

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

Sorry, I have been tied up today so I am replying late. My comment that I can't build an airframe for the price I can buy the same ARF has been pretty well answered with other people's posts, but just as an example: To cut out from balsa, plywood, and spruce the parts for a 1/3 scale aerobatic scale model, I would guess the bill for wood alone would be $300.00 or more. Then add another $200 for covering. Then consider a fiberglass cowl, hardware package, dural landing gear and so on. I would spend close to $750 to $800 to build the same airframe I can buy in ARF form for $600.00. Back in the "old days" when no one knew what an ARF was, us "geezers" built because there was no alternative to it.:D

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

Yeah, If you didn't build it you didn't have anything to fly which definitely sparked the interest and motivation to build. Plus the sweet aroma of Ambroid curing was an added bonus!;):D

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

Just grip it and rip it dude!

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

Yes, nothing like the sweet smell of all those cancer causing solvents in Ambroid! And don't forget the Elmer's White Glue. Geez, no wonder it took so long to build stuff!

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

Kennel, Everyone else is giving you advice so I may as well:D.When you take off don't pull it off too soon. I did this once with my trainer and I lost all aileron control and the engine torque made it roll left and it hit. But I was lucky it only broke the engine mount. If I would've remembered to use the rudder I probly could have saved it but I did learn how to change motor mounts.:D

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

Good luck and let us know how that first flight goes! I myself am new to the nitro planes, but have been flying electrics for a while. I started out with no experience other than on the styrofoam electrics (Hobbyzone Super Cub) and bought and flew a Hangar 9 Alpha a few months ago. I have many hours in FS One, but that was it. I had a great fifteen second flight the first time, only brought to an abrupt end due to the aileron harness coming unplugged...After purchasing a new fuselage and rebuilding, I havent had too much trouble. I have never had the assistance of an instructor, but I have been alright due to my experience with the electrics and my simulators. I am now flying my Alpha as well as a Hobbico Superstar 40...

Dont be too intimidated with the thought of an instructor...as long as you understand the mechanics of flight and have a deep pocketbook, you will do ok. I would highly recommend that you check the servo reversing switches on the Spektrum transmitter, and check all control surfaces just before takeoff.

Good luck and let us know how it went!!!

Tony

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

I guess I'm one of the grannies, then. I have an independent streak and tended to make decisions and go about the hobby like I though was right early on. I had some major failures and learned that maybe there were people who knew more than me. I then appreciated the guys who cared enough to tell me when I had it wrong. I never liked hearing it, but I was bright enough to know that more experienced people know what they are talking about. There's a guy in our club who has got to be the most bullheaded human being that ever lived. He has destroyed at least 10 airplanes in the last two years, and he doesn't have money to waste on them. He recently said he was quitting because of the failures. Most of the instructors have explained things to him, given him supplies and equipment, and all have tried to help him. He wants to be stubborn though, and now he's out of the hobby. He is not bright enough to know that more experienced people know what they are talking about.

Me personally, I don't give a rip what the "approved" way is. I care about what works and what generates success. And I post so that new guys who haven't even flown an oval yet don't get discouraged by failing after reading a post on the internet telling them to do it wrong. I volunteer as an instructor for my club because I care about new pilots and advancing the hobby. And yes, I will be direct with guys who are messing up because I want them to succeed. If that makes me a Nazi, then Heil Hitler!

BTW, to the OP: If I came across rude in any of my posts, then do please excuse me. I'm just trying to help.

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

jester s1,

Your post comes across as giving advice, without being judgemental.  I have no problem with that.  If I wasn't looking for some guidance, then I wouldn't be here.  I tell my bride that I know EVERTHING.  If you pormise not to tell her, then I will admit that there are some things I might not know.   Several people, resigned to the fact that the "instructor" thing is not for me, have made suggestions about what they think I might need to know to get me closer to the possibility of success.</p>

</p>

You suggest that you don't care what the "approved" way is.  I'm kinda like that.  I want to find the way that works for me.  I don't think that makes me stubborn.  I think that it makes me knowlegable about how I, as one individual can learn.  I've done a bit of teaching.  I have concluded that not everyone learns the same way.  Rather than force someone to adapt to my sophomoric attempts at instruction, I try to find the meathod that the student "gets".  Some are hands on, some are theoretical.  Whatever works.  I know for me that lots of study, lots of observation (lurking on the boards) and then hands on works for me whenever I try to acquire a new skill set.

So Jester, I don't think you are a "granny", I think you have seen a sucessful method that works for some.  Maybe the majoirity. You don't condemn me or take shots at me 'cause I don't do it your way.  You only offer the suggestion of what you have senn work.  That's the difference between you and a "Granny" in my book.

Scroll thru the threads and note the people who have said "I wouldn't do it, but if you do, remember this....."  Those are the people that are helping....

Thanks

Paul</p>

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

RC Airplane nut:

Somewhere in threads I read about your suggestion.  Guy had an Alpha.  Two takeoffs, both immediate dips to the right and crash.  Thought he had a trim problem and worked the trim to death on the ground.   Nope, turs out he attempted to lift off without enought airspeed.   So, that is firmly planted in my mind.
Thanks
Paul

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

AndyW;
Your advice is different from my first flight plans and I would like you to explain why you choose to do lazy ovals with the ailerons rather than the rudder.

Here are my thoughts.  With the A/C at altitude, and slow, skid the a/c around the oval with a little rudder.  gets both thumbs working.  I expect a little nose drop with the rudder, perhaps more so than with ailerons.  Rudder would be my choice for landing approach so why not use it to start rather than ailerons.  I can work in coordinated turns with ailerons later in flights.
That's my thought process.  I would like to hear your thoughts because (and don't tell my wife) I could be wrong here.</p>

</p>

Thanks</p>

Paul</p>

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

Bass and Plugboy,

I will graduate to building.  Probably over the winter.  I have build many balsa models in the past and love it.  Course, that was the silkspan days so I will have to learn those gosh darn new fangled covering methods.

Here is one for the books.  My sons "dream" is to build a "Spruce Goose" complere with eight .049 motors.  Trust me, the kid is Mensa and he can do it!   Isn't it great to sit back and dream about goals...    Anyone know where I might get some plans for a spruce goose.  It would make a nice little present from a father to a son, sharing a common hobby.

Paul

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_62...tm.htm#6296333

check that forum post out all about the spruce goose and where to go to look for plans or who to ask!

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

or this may help..

http://www.seawings.co.uk/sprucegooseplangal.htm

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

Either a lot of people are hung up on some definition of "Instructor" that doesn't exist, or they haven't read your posts. As I pointed out before, your son can already fly RC, and your plan is for him to help by doing the take offs (probably landings too), giving advice, and my guess is if you get in big trouble he'll be there to hand the transmitter to. In my book, that's an instructor.

There's no state or local licensing board to become an official "RC Instructor", so anyone that can fly and decides to help someone else learn is an instructor whether they call themself that or not. Some clubs have rules about who can instruct, but lots of people fly at unsanctioned sites and teach their friends and family. At my club we have official instructors who use buddy boxes, but I've also seen a bunch of people (frequently a father teaching his) doing exactly what you are doing, passing the transmitter back and forth.

So again, I don't see why people are going on and on about how much better it is to have an instructor when you already have one. Good luck, I'm sure you'll do fine. Keep it high so you have time to pass the transmitter back to your "instructor".

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

Wish you good luck and how you go about learning, especially on your own property, is certainly your business. In your very first post you mention some previous figure nines, and later mention 2 channel foamies, then even later discuss co-ordinated turns etc. You obviously have some expereince or exposure to both RC terms and general aviation. How many RC flights have you attempted prior to purchasing the trainer you have now? You obviously have a computer, do you or your son have an RC simulator? Have you set up an RC field on your property, ie a smooth flat well mowed area for take offs and landings. Just curious.

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

Kennelmaster,

I would like to jump in on your question you posed to Any in post #112. while I agree that learning to use rudder should go right along with basic flight skills I think you may want to change you view of the ailerons. I think you mentioed at some point you have done some full scale flying? When you initiate a turn using rudder only what does that tend to do to the turn? It turns into a skidding uncordinated turn. Plus not to mention the fact that using rudder to maintain wings level on approach is difficult at best leaving you behind the aircraft. Using the rudder to raise a lowered wing relies on moving the aircraft on its vertical axis to momentarily increase the speed of the lowered wing and slow the high wing. This does work but there will be a slight delay as the lowered wing develops lift then raises itself back up. Ailerons are the direct route to maintain wings level on apporach.

As for making regular turns in an oval, using ailerons is a much more coordinated means of moving the plane around its lateral axis. You initiate the turn using ailerons, pull some back stick to compensate for loss of vertical lift, correct with rudder to maintain coordination. Most trainer aircraft will fly left turns using only aileron and elevator. Right turns will fight the left turning tendancies of the prop and engine (all 4 of them) so you will need more rudder in a right turn.

Alot of folks who have been in the hobby for many years learned to fly with a 3 channel set up with rudder only. That was more out of neccesity than choice. You are not in that boat and have ailerons to use. I could go on and on about the aerodymics of flight and turns in general but I think I covered the important stuff. I fly full scale as well and I love learning about all the mechanics of flight. Fully scale flying has taught me more about RC and actually made me a better RC pilot by a long shot. Especially when I was working on getting my Flight instructor rating. I hope this helps some. If you want me to clarify any of my rambling feel free to ask!

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

frenchdoor,

Thanks a million...  If I can locate anything that will be close to plans I can set him up with a workshop and let him go at it.   Why would I have to set him up???   Well, my understanding is that the livingroom in his small apartment is now being used for rebuilding his motorcycle engine...  Plus, it's a father son thing:D

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

Kennelmaster, TruBlu02 is right on the $. Another thing to consider is speed and reaction time. Most trainers fly around 45 ot 60 mph. A good mental exercise is to calculate 60mph into feet per second, even at 300 foot altitude max correction time is 2 to 4 seconds for an RC plane going 60 mph. If you "get behind the plane" (mentally) it usually is all over.

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

OK Tru blu,  definitely food for thought.  I am going to have to ruminate about that for a while and perhaps come up with a new plan to install (mentally).  Plan the flight, fly the plan....

Any other thoughts out there????

Paul

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

Also, once airborne and at a reasonable altitude, throttle back to 1/3rd throttle. Modern trainers fly great at this setting, nice and slow, and provide even more reaction time. How many times have I seen a "instructor" have some novice zipping around at full throttle.

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

K3...
If my old feeble mind still works, and understand that my math skills leave something to be desired, 60 mph = 88fps.  With that equation in mind I would suspect we shold think about a manuvering altitude of about 80,000 feet.  Somewhere with the SR-71's....:D

RE: Beginner??? Probably!
 

Kennel,
I am by no means telling you that your ideas are wrong. The ailerons are there to make your life easier so why not use them? Flight is a balancing act of forces surrounding an airplane. Yes adding ailerons into th mix does complicate the movements from your brain to your thumbs but I think you will have a much better feel for the plane using the method I have described. I reccomend trying both methods of flight so you can see the difference. Especially on landing. That of course depends on the weather not keeping you grounded. Hows the forecast out in your neck of the woods?