Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

OK, so I have never flown pattern, and I don't have a pattern ship, but I want to. I need advice on what is what. There are references all over this place about IMAC and F3A (i think) and three or four others. I am guessing these are different subgroups of competition pattern flying???? Where does one start?? Which one is best? Pros Cons of each? Opinions please. I looked at the IMAC 2009 routine and it looked greek to me. I was able to figure out what some of the manuevers were, but there were symbols that I have no idea what they meant. There were references to the manuevers discription, but I guess you have to have the manual or something. Please explain. I also would like advice on a good beginner pattern ship that is fairly inexpensive. I plan to build a bridie .40 this fall. I really like the looks of the old school pattern planes. Your input is appreciated. Thank you.

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

Hi Sentry,

This page gives a general rundown of what [link=http://www.hooked-on-rc-airplanes.com/precision-aerobatics.html]precision aerobatics and pattern flying[/link] is and how to get started.

You can begin practicing precision aerobatics with just about any airplane that can perform basic aerobatic maneuvers. Once you move up in competitions you will probably want a "true pattern ship" to keep up with your competitors. But such a plane can be very expensive and is definitely not needed for getting started in flying precision aerobatics.

Hope this helps,

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

Old school pattern planes? Wow ... I wish I had one or rather had the skills to build one! Yeah ... MK kits are nice.

If you are about to just flirt with F3A why not try something that is an all round flying plane. I would vote for the Fliton Extra 330 Freestyle but she will want a nice 70 sized 4C. You can of course use sport planes like say the WM Super Sport 40 for sportman level or the WM Spot On 50. After trying a 'proper' pattern plane you will not want to use other planes to fly for pattern. They are so straight and go where you point them. All your mistakes are so obvious. That's what I learnt.

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

Old school pattern planes? Wow ... I wish I had one or rather had the skills to build one!


I have a friend who is going to show me how to build one. We have the plans and I already have the motor (OS.60) so I am gonna build it, I guess I just wonder if it will suffice. It seems like everyone has big 3D lookin planes in IMAC???? Still confused.

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

That's because IMAC requires a scale type of plane so you see a lot of Extras, Edges, Sukhois and Yaks. Pattern you can start out with just about anything that you can stunt with.
I build and fly the old school pattern planes because they make great sport planes too. Todays pattern planes are much more advanced but you can fly the basics with planes like the Kaos or the nice little Venus Arf, Tracer ARF or an Ultra Sport. A lot of choices in kits or ARFs for basic and sportsman.
If you go into the Pattern Forum or classic Pattern Forum or IMAC Forum you can learn a bunch more about it.
I have the 01 Sportsman in front of me now. I fly it for fun. I found it at http://www.mini-iac/Sequences/2001/0...sman_known.hmt it shows you the what and how so you can learn to read the sequences. I think you just type in that address with the new dates and it may come up for you? I hope you can still get it there, 01 was a while ago.

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

Like what Graybeard says, IMAC is basicalled precision flying using SCALE PLANES ... pattern only is limited by size and weight, 2m x 2m not exceeding 5 kgs (11 lbs). As for those old patterships, they were pretty heavy and with retracts they are best flown with a pipe. What plane are you going to build?

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

Daddy Rabbit, winner of class three at the Nats Pattern event in 1966, scratch built from plans. A pair of Bridi Kaos, first won class three in 1970 then two more years. You can still get a Kaos kit plus several of the older Bridi kits from Blue Jay. Very good starter planes for pattern but there are newer designs but they all have very colse designs. Just 60 size planes. It doesn't cost a bunch to get into pattern but there seem to be more IMAC events held these days?? Depends on your area.

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

For beginning either IMAC or pattern you can fly whatever plane you want. No restrictions in the beginners classes.

for pattern maneuvers, check this out:
http://nsrca.us/documents/judging/cu...rtsman2007.pdf

Basic pattern homepage is nsrca.us

Just worry about safely flying the maneuvers and not so much about the plane. I started pattern flying a $99 Dolphin.

Entry level pattern planes are the Great Planes Venus II, Piedmont Models Focus Sport, World Models Spot On, and others.

As far as what's best, well, the best thing to do is go to meets and see what you like. I got hooked on pattern the first time I saw a guy fly a pattern ship through the routine, at my first pattern meet.

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

There is another pattern group called SPA for Senior Pattern Association.

http://www.seniorpattern.com/

They fly the original pattern aircraft, or should I say, sport aircraft that are capable of doing pattern maneuvers. It was where pattern got it's start. They have a list of "SPA Legal" aircraft that can be flown in competition. Their routines are pretty much the same as classical Pattern but use different planes.

I have one such plane in my inventory, the Goldberg Skylark 70 with an OS .75 AX engine. It is a very nice flying aircraft and meets all the requirements of SPA. My instructor, Ron Lockhart, who is a Master Class Pattern Competitor, flew it and put it through all of his master class sequences and it did just fine.

As for me, well, with work and other activities, I just don't have the time to dedicate to all the practice that is necessary for getting any better at the pattern sequences, but I am fully capable of flying the pants off of my Skylark, but I often just go out and to the maneuvers to keep "in shape", then just sport fly for the relaxation of it all.

Don't let anyone fool you. To do well in pattern, it takes a lot of discipline and time... time = burning fuel.. lots of fuel.

The most basic maneuver that you can do, probably some would not refer to as a maneuver, but it is and gets judged at events, is the straight and level flight from right to left or left to right. The reason for that is you cannot set up properly for any of the follow on maneuvers if you can't fly straight and level... hands off the transmitter. That takes skill and a lot of prep to make the plane ready for that type of flight. Every maneuver you make requires a setup from straight and level flight. If you aircraft starts off into a loop, for instance, and you are not straight and level, well, the loop will be sloppy and will get judged accordingly.

So, if you want to get started in Pattern, then get that plane set up properly, and learn to fly the plane straight and level with little or no input from the transmitter. Do a proper and extended take off, with a slow turn into the flow, make your turn to downwind, and level out at about 100 feet or so altitude with a little over half throttle. Trim for straight and level flight during your downwind pattern. Do it quickly and decicively, then at the end of the downwind leg, do a half reverse cuban 8, if done right AND if your plane was trimmed out correctly, at the end of the maneuver, you should be flying straight and level upwind and ready to begin your maneuvers.

Even if it sounds easy, try it. You will see that this is the very first thing you must master so you can move on into the other maneuvers. That is not to say you can't learn and do the other maneuvers, but to get them right, you must master the straight and level flight.

Practice.. practice.. burn fuel.

Best of luck, Sentry4. Stick with it and you will be a much better flyer.

CGr.

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

Went out this morning to practice and yes it is hard for the straight and level with no input. When you do the routinedo you do it in a certain order?

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

The routine is in a certain order - follow the link in post #8. The PDF/Powerpoint presentation is in order.

Straight and level flight is two of the 'maneuvers' in the beginner's ('Sportsman') schedule. The other classes don't actually have straight and level flight maneuvers, but every maneuver is supposed to start and end with a straight and level segment, sometimes inverted.

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

Hi Gene.

Yeah. Each maneuver is in a pattern sequence.. thus patten flying. It all starts out with a straight line for without a straight line, you can't set up the first maneuver properly and it all falls to crap pretty quickly after that.

I focus on my sticks. For instance, when doing a loop, I focus on my input so that I pull stright down on the elevator stick and really focus on not putting any aileron into the loop maneuver. After a while, and this all comes down to muscle memory training by repitition, it comes automatically. Your brain thinks "LOOP" and you pull straight back with no side to side movement that will tend to make a loop look sideways or induce a roll attitude in the loop.

The same goes for the Half Cuban Eight, or Immelman, or Split S (from the top).. all starts out with a straight line followed by pure straight inputs. Entering a half cuban eight, for instance requires a pull back to 45 degrees climb altitude. Then the roll to inverted at the exact middle of the 45 degree climb to altitude.. with as much climb before as after the roll to inverted. The roll to inverted must be 180 degrees (not 190 or 170). Pure moves to pure rolls. If you miss the roll by, say 10 degrees, it tends to make the pull to finish the maneuver.. the half loop to the opposite direction straight and level flight, as is the total half cuban 8 maneuver..

So, all starts out with a straght and level approach into the maneuver followed by pure input to the sticks with no tendency to roll where a roll is undesirable.

What I do after I do several passes at about 100 feet (I also do the half cuban eight instead of a roll to turn back in the opposite direction... helps learning the move without pressure). Then after several passes that I really focus on straight and level, I begin the focused half cuban eights.. or the focused Immelman which will put you "On top" do a straight line and into a split S maneuver (roll to inverted at about the 3/4 point as it passes by you at altitude, then pull for a nice large return to 100 feet.. trying to keep all the maneuvers big. For instance.. don't just roll to inverted and yank for a quick return to the opposite direction flight, but do the move slowly and purposefully. The same for the Immelman.. picture this.. you are in the upwind direction, you are straight and level, you want to reverse direction.

Step 1: Straight and level flight upwind (say left to right).
Step 2: you are at the 7/8 point in the "Box" and you want to reverse direction using the Immelman so you slowly pull on the elevator giving you a large radius half-loop. (pure pull, no aileron) You end up on the top of the large half loop.
Step 3: You then roll 180 to upright flying.

Now you are flying right to left but up high.

Step 1: You want to reverse direction using a Split S. So, at the 7/8 point of the "box" you roll to inverted using pure aileron and roll to exactly 180 degrees inverted flight.
Step 2: You finish the last 1/8 inverted and then pull pure elevator for a large half loop.
Step 3: You finish the half loop and are flying straight and level, upright and headed back left to right.

You completed two maneuves in a row that were set up by straight and level flight.

Wphew.. takes practice!!! :D

Dick.

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

One more thing, Gene. I'll use the Half Cuban Eight as an example: The pull to 45 degrees is done sharply and cleanly, AND must be 45 degrees. You would be surprised at the comments from the judges "That was not exactly 45 degrees" and off come the points. Don't ask me how they know.. they just do.

Then comes the equal amounts of air before and after the roll to inverted. Keep the maneuver big. Big impresses them because it requires control and discipline.

This is why I've stressed on trim adjustments in some of my posts. Setting the airplane up properly with the right CG and thrust angle comes into play when it comes to the subtleness of some of these maneuvers. Slight differences can cause big differences in the flight attitude. When you roll to inverted, for instance, how much down do you need to keep it inverted and straight? If a lot is needed, then perhaps your CG is wrong, or you had to much up in the trim for straight and level flight. So a combination of CG and elevator trim may need to be tweeked to get it so very little opposite elevator is needed to hold a straight and level inverted attitude.

Dick.

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

Doing these maneuvers properly usually requires a lot more than just straight pulls on a single stick. Rudder is huge in pattern for correcting heading and for keeping your nose up when the plane is in knife edge attitude. When doing loops the ailerons are used to make corrections for wind and such. A roll requires A LOT more than just moving the aileron stick to the side. Another thing is roll rates - to maintain constant roll rates it is necessary to vary the amount of aileron stick input accordingly.

Also when you pull into verticals (or even into a 1/2 Cuban) the offset engine thrust can/will pull your plane to the side, and as CG mentioned trimming issues will affect the attitude of your plane. It is all about making the proper corrections to keep everything smooth an in line.

Of course this stuff all comes with time and practice and it's important to know that when you see people doing these maneuvers properly that it's not that easy.

Half reverse cuban 8's are more commonly used for practicing as they get you back into straight and level flight with a lot more flying space ahead of you. This is the 'preferred' turn around maneuver when you're 'out of the box'.

As far as the order of flight - it is all in order. The pattern (in this style {nsrca} of pattern flying) consists of a center maneuver and turn around maneuvers. Center maneuvers are centered directly in front of you (and the judges) and turn around maneuvers are performed within the limitations of the 'box'. You can make your maneuvers as big or small, your radii as sharp or gradual as you like, as long as they are consistent.

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

Thanks for all the help Joe.

I have not been flying all that long, a little over a year on the 2nd go around. Flew a few times 40+ years ago, no buddy box, just hand it back and forth. Never soloed back then. I fly almost every morning, benefit of being retired. I think I need a plane that is probably more atuned to some of these patterns. I have a 91 4 stroke just waiting for some kind of plane. Any suggestions. You are really an inspration. I said, "look at this guy, one year and he is taking 2nd place". So I am much older and wiser, so I should get 1st place:D:D:D. Only kidding, but congrats.
Gene

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

Gene, I would love to see you ahead of me in the standings:D

Pattern planes generally have a fuse that is longer than the wingspan (helps the plane to track very straight through a maneuver). Symmetrical wing, either shoulder mounted or mid wing mounted. Some of the longer 3D planes are known to do pattern stuff pretty well so long as the rates are turned down (10 degrees deflection is all you need for pattern) like the H9 Showtime or something.

A plane for a .91 four stroke is a tough call for me with my limited experience. I immediately thought of this one but not sure if it's just too big of an engine:
http://ecsvr.com/abm/shopexd.asp?id=2418

This plane has a lot of good reviews. I would probably recommend asking in the pattern forum though, you'll get better answers there. I will think about it in the meantime.

It is my pleasure to help anyone get involved in pattern flying. Please PM me if you want to ask me questions personally.

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

If you really want a sweet plane for the .91 four stroke:

http://www.kyoshoamerica.com/airplan...part_num=11854

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

A Bravo 303 won't break the bank http://www.americanpioneerhobbies.com/bravo_mark2.html

I have seen them on offer for even less.

I had one and it is a nice flying model, ideal for pattern practice.

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

I guess with all your experience in pattern, you can blow aside stick control. I prefer not to, it was the first lesson when I was working toward flying pattern. Stick control and flying a straight line. Proper trim, proper aircraft set up, including the thrust line, are all necessary and you don't learn that overnight, nor does your aircraft become perfectly setup overnight. All this takes time, and that was my point.

I provided goirish some simple drills that I used to get myself prep'ed for flying maneuvers. I'm sure even those top competitors out there started out trying to figure out how to make that nice roll, nice loop before they were introduced to a half cuban 8 or Immelman, or whatever you wish. And I can pretty much assure you that before any degree of perfection was possible, they had to learn to fly straight and level, and that the aircraft had to be set up properly and the pilot had to understand that what has to happen is the repeated drills in the air to get things right.

I'm sure even you, Joe, found that after practice, certain maneuvers came upon you much easier, and to the point where you realized that a little left rudder might help correct that maneuver.... something that does not happen on week one - day one of pattern 101.

I believe my intent was to help Goirish with simple approaches to begin pattern and what to do in the initial phases of learning pattern. It does not come by osmosis, it takes practice and lots of it. And, no matter how good the flyer is, without proper stick control, even with a rudder, maneuvers will be sloppy at best.

Any one wanting to get started in pattern has to know the basics of pattern and it must start out with stick control. As you progress and learn in steps, you learn how and when to apply certain inputs to help align the aircraft for the next maneuver.

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

Joe, that sure looks like a U-CAN-DO. 400 magic beans is a bunch of bucks for someone just testing the waters.
When I was learning pattern I was taught straight and level first thing then the big loop and slow roll and the 1/2 Cuban or emmelman for a turn around. Everything you do will have to start out straight and level so that was the first thing. Pretty much everything in any stunt flying contains the loop and roll so I have spent a lot of time trying to perfect those. Without much luck!!;)

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

Sorry I have a bad habit of cramming everything in at the beginning, as I'm sure you all can tell by now;). It absolutely starts with stick control, straight lines, proper angles, and smooth radii. I certainly don't 'blow aside' stick control - that's something I was taught (relatively) long before I even knew what pattern flying was, and something I still practice when my radio is in my hands and planes are not in the sky.

I guess my point was to show that while the Sportsmans maneuvers seem 'simple' there is actually a lot that's going on with the plane and with the sticks (and also to encourage rudder use!). It takes a lot of practice to get things right, and a lot more practice to advance through the levels.

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

I really appreciate all the advice and help. I will practice, practice, practice. I have been doing most of the manuvers with my stick, but I will get a plane that is more suitable for pattern flying. Where can one get all the good information, Right here on RCU!!!!!!!!!!!
Gene

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

Joe, no mater how straight and level I have my plane I still tend to pull a taste of right into my ailerons unless I am thinking about not doing it. Curse of the two fingered pinch pilot. I have also started to trim my planes for straight and level at half throttle, I was taught to do it at full throttle but I go into things better at half power and just add throttle as needed, much smoother for me.
I understood what you were saying and trying to convay.;)
The other Gene

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

That was my point about stick control. I said that I have to focus on not pushing or pulling aileron with elevator or elevator with aileron. It is even more noticeable with the rudder. I find it almost impossible, unless I focus on it, not to add throttle when adding rudder.

It's something that takes time to overcome, if ever. People like Dave Lockhart that seems to have total control on all of his sticks, even manages to work switches on his TX without losing what he is doing in the air. Makes me very envious of his abilities.

Yup, Gene.. practice practice practice. There's still a chance for us old fogies, I guess. To some it comes naturally. It does not for me, although I'm getting better at it, but it still has me thinking "Ok, loop coming up.. pull on the elevator and leave the aileron alone"....

AND, yes, to us beginners in Pattern, the sportsman level maneuvers are quite challenging. We can all do the maneuvers, some well, some not so well, but putting them all together in the "pattern" is what takes all that practice and focus. And, of course, no matter what you do, it all STARTS with stick control.

CGr.

RE: Pattern IMAC F3A questions
 

Pattern setup is not only done on the plane but the transmitter also.
Increased stick tension can help the dreaded cross controls. Adding expo
to your surfaces allows a small mistake on the stick look smaller in the air.
Mixes can help remove some of a planes bad traits (not a crutch for improper setup),
some planes have quirks that can't be removed without major redesign and that is where
computer mixes really show their usefulness.