Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

I think I can... I think I can... I think I can...:D

Has anyone ever come into model building as a "beginner" and done quality work comperable to G-Pete's Ziroli P-38?[link]http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8175750/anchors_8175750/mpage_1/key_pete/anchor/tm.htm#8175750[/link]
I think I can... call me nuts if you like, but that is exactly what I want and hope to do.
There's plenty of threads to cover everything I thought of and seemingly everything I didn't. Quality of detail I can do, and I would enjoy it immensely.
I have very little money, so it would take me forever to build it, giving me tons of time to think, plan, research, etc., etc., etc.
Keep in mind I don't mean overnight skills in flying it, just building it. I'll let you aces fly it for me! lol
What do you guys think? [sm=confused.gif]

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

I think it's something to shoot for! A goal to be met! I'd say go for it but don't be blindsided or even obsessed with reaching or beating someone else's skill level the point of this hobby is to enjoy it.
I think once you start getting super competitive then you'll miss out on something truly great in modeling. For me, I don't compete with anyone but myself! Always try to be better today than you were yesterday.
As I say, its a great goal to shoot for, however I wouldn't go off regarding him as a rival. Even with all the reading in the world and pics you can find. There is something to be said and gained just from hands on experience
and the years it takes to hone that skill. Especially the little things that get over looked. Enjoy the journey concentrate more on that and less on the destination!

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

Well, if I see it on the sports book at the casion I will bet against it but you never know. Nick Ziroli and friends has some pretty big shoes to fill and when he designs a plane he has a nice staff helping him out and building the proto types to test. I have some of his very old plans from Model Airplane News of one of his early WW1 bipes in 40 size and it's so scale I never bothered to build it. I was looking for a fun little plane to build so I went to another designer.
Good luck with it though and if you put in the years of learning like these guys did you may make it?? If nothing else you will learn a lot and enjoy yourself with those lofty goals. I will root for you.

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

Yeah, I didn't mean to say I would be competing with him, and I won't. It would be foolish of me or anyone else if they thought they could top his skills gained through years of experience other than gaining that experience themselves. It's just that I have always loved the P-38, built one as a kid, but never got any further than the structural stage, because the chickens got into my "shop" and destroyed it by nocking things off the shelf onto it! Very sad day. And I wouldn't want to build one and do any less than MY absolute best. I really just want to be sure that my goals are not too lofty... it is a VERY expensive endeavor after all. From what I can assertain, it's something to the tune of 6,000 or 7,000 US dollars when complete. Probably more since I have NO supplies.

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

While your goals are great, and I don't mean to lessen your enthusiasm any, but to think you can start at that level may be a bit of a reach. Build planes requires skills that need to be learned, and planes to the level that you want to build to will require A LOT of those skills. In fact, most of the plans for planes of that caliber EXPECT you to know building techniques and do not tell you exactly what to do to construct the assembly. This would be similar to somebody starting medical school tomorrow and next week they think they  are ready to heart surgery. There is a learning curve required and it's really hard to ignore that curve.

I understand that you say money is an issue, but you may wind up spending more money by not going through "the steps" to build your skills. Start out building some smaller more popular kits. Many of the more popular kits are very well documented and designed to ensure successful builds. Buy starting on these smaller kits you will build the skills needed for you "dream build" later on.

I'm sorry if this sound harsh, but I think it needs to be said. While it's possible that you could do this, it's really unlikely that you will be able to. I would hate to see you spend that much money to attempt something like this only to find that you're not ready for it. Trust me, I want to see you succeed and that's why I'm saying this.

Hope this helps

Ken

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

Thanks, Ken. I do appreciate ALL comments, positive and negative. If I do decide to go for it, I'll be sure to do MAJOR research via the threads. I just found out where my local club hangs out, so I'll be sure to tap that knowledge base as well.
Again, thanks for the criticism.

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

The only limit to reaching your goal is desire.

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

Hey, reach for the goals, and do the best. The worst thing that can happen is you learn something!!! And, produce a pretty fine product, that I'm sure you, like all of us, will find something that can be improved on. But, set those goals and work towards them. That'd a good thing!! :D

CGr

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

Go for it! :D

Years ago at our club there was a gent that had been in the auto body shop business for many years. Without a doubt he built some of the best airplanes I've have ever seen to date. So if you talents provide, then more to you. Best of luck and most of all enjoy the hobby.:)

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

RCKen got it right. Building fancy scale models isn't just a matter of reading about how to do it. If that were the case, it would altogether unremarkable that anyone does it. Your hands need to learn the skills, and a few simpler projects beforehand are the way to do it. Ziroli's first build wasn't the impressive models you see today, and neither is anyone else's. Arguably, the cheapest possible route to go is to build two or three .40 sized kits, starting with a basic sport plane and then a detailed scale model and maybe a detailed .40 sized P38 before tackling the big one. I say that because a mistake in a small model may cost you $50 and a few hours, while a mistake on a big model could cost 5 times that. Progressing in incremental steps also will give you the flying experience needed to enjoy that big model once you have it built.

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

the key is to always do your very best and have fun doing it

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

There have always been people who just build and not fly. Team scale was invented to put together a builder and a flier; where regular competition you have to be both builder and flier. You may not be interested in comps. but the piont is it has been done forever. My best friends dad built scale planes and never could fly a trainer. His son and I both built and flew an bunch of planes. He never let us fly them and they only got flown once or twice before they were shelved to move on to the next one.

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

If you look up Gordon Whitehead from the UK you will see he designed an outstanding P-38, I think his plans were sold in RCM or MAN plans. I haven't built his P-38 but I did build one of his Krier Krafts and it was a great build and a lot of fun. Some of the stuff was pretty old school so it left a lot of room to redesign for items we have today. It's a lot smaller then the Giant Nick designed and his plans are a lot cheaper. Smaller also means less wood and cheaper hardware. I think I would give this one a try before I tried to design something myself just to get my feet wet. I have seen a lot of Nicks P-38s over the years at IMMA events, some more scale then others but all of them outstanding planes. You do know you can just buy his plans too?
If you go into the scratch and designing forum you can see what some of the scratch builders have to go through to design there own. Today it's done with a CAD on a computer, I used to do it on my drafting table but find it easier to just buy someone elses plans these days.
I have given some thought to building Gordons 38 myself.

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

No truer words!

This applies to almost everything in this hobby.

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

Well I will tell you that you wouldn't be the first to want to start this way , from the top down as apposed to from the bottom up , Me included , I started building warbirds right out the gate , my first build was a spitfire built from a set of plans , after about a yr and half I got it to the close to being completed stage , the only advise i can give you is be very patient read and gather as much information on every step that you can learn before you proceed measure 3 times cut once , AND TAKE YOU TIME ! it is 10 times harder and the learning curve can be expensive both time and money , can it be done Of course ! would I do it again probably not , frustration can and will set in to the point of giving up , the likely hood of you succeeding are greater the more experience you have , however if you do decide to go this route then i wish you the best of luck , just remember YOU CAN'T QUIT

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

I build stringed instruments for a living. [link]http://www.smithcreekmandolin.com[/link] I also cut and sell the wood used in all types of stringed instruments to other builders, frequently those building their first instrument. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to talk first time builders out of buying the best most expensive wood I sell. I tell them not to expect their first instrument to be perfect, but it should be considered a learning experience. The typical response I get is something like this: "Oh, I know, but I'm going to do a good job, I'm going to be very careful." This is my response: "I've never played golf before, but I think I'm going to go out this weekend and shoot a round of par golf. You know how I'm going to do it? Every time I hit the ball, I'm going to be very careful."

Sounds pretty stupid when you put it that way, but that's exactly what it is. It takes a couple years to learn how to sharpen all the tools you'll want to use, much less how to use them. When it come to building planes some people start out ahead of the game because they already work with wood, or know how to fiberglass or spray paint, but there are still hundreds of little bits of knowledge and skills that are very specific to building an rc plane that you don't know until you actually do. Then you try to do it better the next time.

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

Hi,

If you have a look at Paul's site there is a wealth of hard won knowledge there.

http://airfieldmodels.com/

Cheers,

Colin

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

An idea is to start with a cheap basic beginner kit just to get a good feel.
I know you will have no problem structurally but you have to allow for the electronics and controls which are not even mentioned in most advance kits. It is assumed you already know how to put that stuff in during the build.
I am a member at two of the local clubs. alot of members from Port Huron.
One is the Prop Busters, they fly and have their meetings in Goodells at the county park.
http://www.sccpropbusters.com/
The River District Eagles fly in St. Clair on the Detroit Edison landfill (just south of St. Clair Hwy and King Rd.) and have meatings at the Marysville library.
http://notgrownupyet.com/eagles/
Best of luck

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

I have thoughts on this . . . but then I have thoughts on everything.

I've never built a Ziroli kit, so I don't know the details he goes to on the plans and instructions. I have built very well detailed and designed kits that can be followed easily to a good result and others that are called "bulider's kits" that are best described as sufficient or less so materials to build a kit after you decide on your own hardware and its placement and can fill in the gaps for construction - assuming there are instructions at all and not just two or three sheets of plans. I've seen warbird "kits" that are just the hollow fiberglass fuselage and cowls/fairings - the parts that would be hard to form yourself - and all the wood and hardware is up to you to select and gather. It would be my guess that Mr. Ziroli will gear the instructions and kit to an advanced builder and pilot.

He might skip over things like engine synchronization (twin engines require special care), the pneumatics for retracts, covering and finishing, etc. The other sad truth is that the workshop required for such a build will require at least twice the expenditure in tools, cements, epoxy and such than the kit, radio system and engine. Can you do it with an X-Acto #11 knife and a sanding block? Maybe, in 25 years or so. But this isn't a Gillow's stick and tissue kit. You don't just grab a can of Rustoleum in "P-38 Markings" at Lowes or drill out and tap the aluminum gear struts with a cordless hand-held drill.

Sure, even a beginner could put together a wonderful model. Some people have extreme patience and "clever hands" . . . some don't. When I used to fly model rockets I had one friend whose models always looked like he made them out of Play-Do and another whose rockets looked better than the catalog pictures. The only difference was skill. But if you've never built OR FLOWN before so much would be lost in building it to your preferances (as you have none yet) and the chance it would have a glaring error that kills it on the first flight is high. You Tube has dozens of dorked scale models that went down for reversed ailerons or other "newbie" mistakes.

Lots of us paid our dues through free-flight rubber and glow powered, control line, two-channel gliders, etc. and built up a background for what works and what doesn't. And, most importantly, what to watch out for. Things like center-of-gravity and control surface travel without binding are just as important on a trainer as a 99% scale warbird. The difference is the trainer kit would have walked you through the steps and methods to assure both are correct. There is also a lot of technique in simple things like gluing or epoxying wood. Lighter always flies better and it takes some knowledge of how much is enough and where weight can be scrimped vs. where strength justifies heavier construction.

I wish I had $1 for every first build P-51 that had a short and fragmentary first flight.

Do it. But be aware that it is a monumental task and will be time consuming and seem impossible at times. But that's what makes some of them fun! I always have one on the "back burner" that is a builder's kit and it may take me many years of occasional futzing when the mood strikes. Happily, ARFs and easy kits (and rebuilds of oopses) are around to keep me flying.

PS - before you buy the kit buy a set of plans (or just the "study plans" if available). You'll find them useful if you do go ahead. But I think if you begin pricing out the requirements you will be astonished how much money is involved. You mentioned "very little money". You will be surprised how fast things like engines, radio systems, batteries, retracts, hinge points, fasteners, etc., etc., etc. add up.

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

Good luck with your build, I got to say it's not that hard to do work as well as the pros or the guys that have been doing it for years. What we have on you is that we have done it so many times that we learn shortcuts and what to watch for as far as strait lines and such, I think if you take your time and use a close eye you could easly build a airplane that looks as good or better than all others. One thin you need to be aware of is that you should not invest more than you are willing to part with in 10 seconds or so. As this can be the nature of our hobby. One thing that I have never under stood is those people who speend all there time building and forget to learn to fly, I see it all the time. If you do this you miss the reward of all your time spent at the build table.

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

Thanks for all the great posts, guys. I'll take everything into consideration before I start a project weather it be a small one or large.

Missileman, will you be at the Propbusters airshow next saturday? I'm only a couple miles down the road from the park, and I'm planning on going.

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

there are many skills needed to build a model like you want.It is not just a matter of cutting and glueing,there is the equipment set up and the work around of problems that always show up and then the finish work.however working with wood if you make a mistake you can cut a new piece and redo it till it is right.

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

I plan on it.

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

im going to paint the mona lisa, i have never painted before but im going to be very careful.
its about the same task, is it impossible, no. i would build your own trainer from a kit and fly that, then build a gp rapture, then a p-51, then a corsair, then a smaller p-38, then the the big one.

by that time you will have figured most of the stuff out, and a lot of fun along the way, but even then its still a tall task. at least give your self a chance and build the above before dropping the cash equivilent of all of the above planes.

RE: Beginner to Pro overnight?
 

I guess I can't make it. My daughter is marching in a parade that day with her high school marching band. I can't miss that.