Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

Three questions about trainer biplanes:

1) It has been said that you either hate or love biplanes; do they fly so different from monoplanes?

2) When is a beginner pilot ready to try his first biplane?

3) Which biplanes are good trainers and which ones are to be avoided?

I would like to hear your opinions.[sm=72_72.gif]

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

Good questions I would love to hear what all the guys think as well
Derrick

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

Hopefully you shall get some good advise regarding which bipes are best for beginners. I can't answer that since been flying Rc of all types for 60 years. However, to point out some of the differences. They are tail draggers so that takes a bit of getting used to. Next they are slightly more difficult to set up and trim out. Also generally more touchy due to short coupling. I wouls have to say depends a lot on your experience and ability regarding how much difficulty you may have. Not a 2nd plane for sure. However are great in most all other respects. Perhaps a favorite bipe of mine was a 1/4 scale Starduster 2. Fantastic looking and flying. Sold it before moving here to Florida, due to it's size wish still had it.

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

If you are a builder, the Sig hog bipe is a very good and friendly flyer.
You will need to be even more so careful about picking contrasting colors for top and bottom.
It is easier to tell top from bottom of a single wing plane due to the wing being on top or bottom, with the biplane you have both.

Tim

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

I don't think any biplane can legitimately be considered a trainer. Now if you mean good first biplane, that's what I think you are looking for.

What makes a bipe challenging is the combination of short wingspan and short tail moment. Also challenging is the fact that people tend to loose orientation of these planes while flying and literally fly them into the ground. My recommendation would be to start with the biggest biplane you can afford avoiding of course 3-d planes. Bigger planes are always more stable and easier to see. My first biplane was a 1/4 scale Bud Nosen Gere Sport with a 96" wing span. I would compare the performance of that plane to an Ugly Stick or the old Ace 4-60, very docile while capable of basic aerobatic maneuvers.

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

Not all biplanes are short-coupled and a handful to fly. In fact the Sig Hog bipe (kit) and the Great Planes Super Skybolt (ARF or kit) are both very nice flying airplanes. I'm partial to the Skybolt. It's just beautiful to look at and wonderful fly.

There are a few more issues to consider when setting up a bipe such as top wing incidence but that's no big deal on a quality kit or ARF. They are really no harder to set up or trim out than anything else so long as you follow the instructions. Anybody who's mastered a good low-wing sport plane or any aerobatic plane can likely handle either one of these planes fine.

Things to watch out for? I personally have a harder time seeing bipes at certain angles. They also have more drag with two wings and slow down pretty quick so you may have to carry a little power on approach. That will vary depending on the particular plane of course.

Some Ultimate bipes fly nice too. They seem to vary depending on who made them and the specific design though. Some are nicer than others. That's just my opinion of course, could just be me.

I would recommend avoiding things like Pitts, Christen Eagle and things like that as first biplane. Not that they aren't great airplanes but they are often stubby little things that can be more of a challenge.

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

Good advice so far.
You have become proficient with a basic trainer I asume. If not do still build yourself a bipe! But get a bunch more trainer time in, really master it. You will HAVE TO BE COMFORTABLE WITH THE RUDDER!!! A bipe will require good control of rudder on takeoff , landing and in the air.
If you like to build find a Sig Astro Hog Bipe or even a Aeromaster (no longer made but available). The deadnuts simplest bipe is any of the Ugly Stick bipes. They are even easy to scratch build, free plans can be found with a little search time here on RCU.

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

I concur with some of the comments you have received, and I differ with others. Here's my take on biplanes in general.

1. There is a difference, and they do fly a bit differently - that is, they require less wingspan to get the same lift as a comparable monoplane. The difference in flying is, the shorter wingspan lends itself to a faster maximum roll rate. If you use a bit much aileron throw, you may find it "touchy" in roll. The earlier comment about coupling is correct, not all are short fuselage versions. Those that DO have a short fuselage can be very touchy in pitch.

2. Any RC pilot comfortable with recovery from spins and able to handle ordinary aerobatics with a low wing monoplane is ready to try a stable biplane. One comfortable with some wilder aerobatics is ready for 'most any bipe.

3. Ultimates are usually pretty good fliers. The Hog Bipe is perhaps a bit more friendly, the Pitts a bit more agile.

Now, it must be mentioned that two wings require more setup work. Furthermore, the top wing is mounted differently than the lower wing, and care must be taken to get it right. My Ultimate is designed with the top wing aligned with a half degree of negative incidence. As such, the top wing is the last to stall. This is a handy thing on that plane.

Biplanes may look intriguing right now, but after you've had one you will find it a lot of work. I suggest you save the biplane experience for after you are comfortable with all the aerobatics you choose to learn on a low wing monoplane.

Best wishes,
Dave Olson

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

When I went into bipes I didn't notice too much difference between them and a single wing plane other then the added drag. A lot depends on what you are used to flying right now. The Hog and Bolt are outstanding first bipes. If you are looking for a very easy bipe to fly then I haven't seen the Tiger Moth brought up, that was the easiest bipe I ever had in the air and on the ground. Long tail moment made it very good for ground handling and it flew and landed like a trainer but could still do stunts. The Stearman is another good one and a lot more active then the Moth. A lot just depends on what you can fly now and what you want to be able to do with the Bipe. Balsa USA has another good one in there EAA Bipe. I have only lost one Bipe but it was a scratch built Krier Kraft and I discovered it didn't want to be flown slow while banking too sharp, a lesson well learned. You just don't want your first one to be short coupled or ground handling can be a problem. The Tiger Moth is a great first time Bipe.

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

I was going to add my 2 cents, but most of the replies are all saying what I would have pointed out, I'm a biplane junkie. There really isn't too much of a difference between bipes and monos except drag caused by alot of wing and some designs have short coupling, IE- sig's smith miniplane, but they all fly fairly well. Just remember even a 40" wingspan bipe has an equivelent of 60" on a monoplane, why only 60"? Because the chord on a bipe wings a mono wing is shorter. I really love my super skybolt, long tail movement, grenerious wing area and actually,.....it's pretty lite compaired to most. The hog bipe is an excellent first bipe as well as a pheaton 90 or cgb ultimate if tone down the throws. But just pic on that fits you correctly, don't buy a kit if you really don't have much time to build, get an arf, having to build 2 wings is the nature of the beast, plus you'll need to get yourself an incedence meter to lineup and set bolth wings angle of attack.

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

It's hard to lump all biplanes together and classify the way the fly with one set of statements. Planes with a single wing fly differently from each other depending on the type of plane they are, and biplanes are no different. Different bipes fly differently from each other so it's hard to get you one set of rules or guidelines that will cover them all. However, for people getting started in biplanes there are a few things that I see happen more than other. And these can reach out and bite the pilot if he's not careful. For the most part all biplanes will have these issues, so they are good things to keep in mind on your first biplane.</p><ul>[*]Orientation. Because the biplane has two wings it appears more "boxy" in the air which can cause disorientation when it's in the air. It's not something that kills the deal, but you just have to learn how to determine the orientation of the plane. It's not harder than a single wing plane, just a little bit different.[*]Most biplanes will go exactly where you point them. If you're coming off atrainer, or your second plane, you'll more than likely be used to dealing with a big dihedral wing. This is going to help make the plane a bit easier to come back to straight and level flight. A biplane won't do that. You have the bring it back to level yourself.[*]And last one is the one that I see bite more pilots, especially newer pilots, than anything else (and yes, it has bit more too). Landing. If you try to land a biplane by "chopping the throttle and gliding it in" you'll be picking up pieces of balsa off of the runway. Biplanes bleed off speed quicker thana single wing plane because of the drag from two wings. And most bipe will stall with very little warning. So if you try to glide it in you'll more than likely stall the plane at a very low altitude with no air under you to recover. To land most bipes you need to fly the plane down to the runway with just a little bit of power, and then chop your throttle just before the wheels touch down.[/list]
These items aren't hard to overcome, but they are the biggest issues I see people have when they move to biplanes. And newer pilots will usually have a little bit harder time because they are new at flying. But one you overcome these it's easy to fall in love with a biplane!!! IMHO there is nothing better in the world than coming down the back side of a loop with the engine at an idle and listening to the wind whistling between the wings!!!!My recommendation for a good first bipe is the Sig Hog Bipe. I've had 3 of these and I love them. They are great flying planes.

Hope this helps

Ken
</p>

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

opinions on the great planes PT17 military stearman as a first bipe?

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

They are just fine, no big surprises but it depends on what you have been flying. If you are going from a trainer to a Bipe it's not the best idea. If you have been flying more performance planes then it's no big deal. I love the Stearmans but before I started flying Bipes I had flown a lot of other types of planes. I think I went from fun fly types to the Fokker D-VII that I built from plans. Other then the ground handling I didn't have any problems, it was a smaller 40 size Bipe too. Skill level means a lot and not just for Bipes. People flying trainers then going into something like an Extra right away usually have some problems, are you flying stunt planes or a trainer??

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

thanks Gray Beard, I know I'm not ready for a bipe yet, still working with my "second" plane, a world models sky raider, I have a vq p51b that I don't fly yet, but I do take it along every once in a while and let a couple of other club members fly it, just so I can watch, it sure looks beautiful flying, the stearman would be the same way until I know I'm ready for it

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

I'm a biplane lover, too, and that was to be my suggestion. Biplanes have a lot more drag and need better throttle management.

I think the Ultimate in it's various forms ( I have a 65" 43cc and a 42" .46 size) is about true to its name as the best of the breed for flying. Not the best looking or the most nostalgic, but it sure can fly. Once you've mastered a low-wing sport model you can handle a bipe. And be warned that not all bipes are similar. The Skybolt and the Hog bipe are dandy while some Camel and Pitts Special models seem impossible to handle on the ground.

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

First one I built was from Rich Uravitch plans, The Fokker D-VII, only a 40 size plane but not all that small. The Tiger Moth was a kit built with a 66 inch span, the Boeing was built from John Tanzer plans and 68 inch. The Krier Kraft was built from Gordon Whitehead plans and an outstanding flying machine, it's the one I lost showing off. I had just got it into trim for IMAC flying. I have has a big bunch of bipes over the years and the Hog may be your best bet for A first try. The Tiger moth is the smoothest flyer out of any Bipe I have ever flown and a great first try. It's more like flying a trainer though and you could get tired of it in a hurry. I still have a couple of them out in the shop but hauling bipes to the field without taking them apart is a real pain in the mule!!;)

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

Excellent responses, gentlemen; thanks.

Nice models, GB.

I am ready to build one biplane from a kit.

Is there any kit like the Sig Hog bipe, the Great Planes Super Skybolt or the Tiger Moth in .40~.46 size?

Again, thank you all.

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

Most of them are more in the 60 size but over the years I have seen a lot of the popular Bipes in the 40 size, you will have to start doing a computer search to see what is still out there. If you can't find the kit in the size you are looking for then you should do a search for plans in places like MAN {model Airplane News} or RCM plans service. The little Fokker is a 40 size and I was only using a cheap OS .46 LA or SF in it. Due to the drag on a Bipe they do tend to use larger engines. My 60 size Aeromaster was a complete dog with a two stroke .68 but turned into an outstanding plane when I installed a .91. Now you have some info, it's up to you to look for the plane that you want.

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

There are no biplanes that can really be used as a trainer. The closes is probably the Tiger Moth. One reason why biplanes don't make good trainers is you have to know what you are looking at when installing the wing and putting it together at the field. Bipes are very sensitive to the CG. Bipes need to be a little nose heavy. A tail heavy or even slightly tail heavy bipe can be short lived. I own and have flown many biplanes through the years, just about one of type produced, you name it and I've probably owned it or crashed it. Bipes can be fun to fly but you need to know what you are doing.

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

Have a laugh at this.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_9425651/tm.htm

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

:D

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

Great planes makes a kit called the "Ultimate 40". I helped my son build one a few years ago and throughout the build I kept thinking, "He's not ready for this firecracker".

But once I flew it, I was amazed at how stable it was. Good choice for a 40-size.

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

I would have to agree with what Mike is saying. The first Ultimate I flew was the 40 size, I thought it was a Goldberg kit though?? Anyway, it was sold through Tower. So much for everything I was told about those scarry stunt Bipes!!:eek: It handled really well on the ground and landed so smooth it scared me, Ego Booster!!! I have flown them up to 37% and they are all pretty much the same, size doesn't seem to mater, they all have been great in every size. Last one I flew was set up with triple rates, they went from just OK to OH WOW!!! All that is really needed in the build is to borrow a good incidence meter so it is set up correctly the first time.

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

my next question would be with the number of aleirons, which would be better for a first bipe, two or four? or does it even matter? be more the plane than the number of aleirons? asking because i noticed that on GPs stearmans, the military version has two, where as the cilvian model has four, both instruction manuals are the same except for the aleirons

RE: Three questions about trainer biplanes: How? When? Which?
 

I'm a 1/2A guy for the most part , but in the case of a bipe, I'd say the bigger the better..there is the ACE ultimate bibe for .10-15 size, flys good but squirrelly on the ground...Rog