What are Flapperons???
 

G'Day

Being quite new to this hobby and not having visited a local club yet, I am still at the very early stages of learning what's what. I have seen in a few posts that people talk about using seperate servos on the Ailerons to make Flapperons instead but I have know idea what that means or the advantages of it? I have searched the forum but can't find it explained anywhere so if someone would be so kind to do so, it would be much appreciated.

Cheers

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

Flapperons are when both ailerons are made to deflect downward together acting as both flaps and ailerons.

There is really NO benefit (except that you don't have to cut separate flaps) but they are a really BAD idea for several reasons.

Do yourself a favor and forget you ever heard the word and use separate flaps and ailerons

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

The advantage of flaperons is it simplifies building and linkage installation. The disadvantage is it degrades the function of both the flaps and ailerons. Separate flaps require two more servos and associated wiring.

They were, and are, used on competition fun fly planes. When the plane is straight and level, they are deployed as flaps which really tightens up a loop. When making a quick dash back to the runway at the end of the maneuver, they are raised as spoilers, literally sucking the plane back to earth and saving a few precious seconds on the clock.

Flaps are commonly used on scale planes to increase lift for takeoff and landing. They allow the plane to fly slower before stalling. They are also used extensively on control line planes.

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

Flaps...are devices at the in board trailing edge of wings that drop down.....they increase the curvature of the wing therefore incresing lift....so an airplane can fly slower yet produce the same amount of lift....a side effect of deploying flaps is extra drag, so if you are on board an airplane and the flaps come down you will most likely hear the engines spool up to compensate for the increase in drag.....
Now ailerons are also at the trailing edge of the wings but outboard....ailerons work opposite of each other, (usually) some airplanes don't have ailerons,......anyway when the left aileron is up the right aileron is down, and vice a versa....ailerons control the roll axis of the airplane....
Now Flaperons are when you combine the 2....a strip aileron that goes completely along the trailing edge of the wing....you drop both ailerons to act as flaps.....but either increase or decrease the travel of one aileron, to control the roll axis of the aircraft.....

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

OK.  That helps a bit.  So if a plane is built with a Flapperon setup instead of an Aileron setup, how do you drop both to act as a flap or only one to control the roll axis?  It's kind of hard to explain isn't it?  But say for a mode one setup with flapperons, if you move the right stick to the right, won't that only move the right aileron and the left stick only move the right aileron?  So how do you move both at the same time to act as a flap?  Or can you only set the plane up to do one or the other?

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

Let's see if I remember this...we hooked one servo to the aileron channel and one to the flap channel and mixed the two, then slaved the whole mess to the elevator so the flaperons would operate whenever the elevator was commanded. Of something like that. Futaba 7UAF radios.

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

OK.  So elevator control moves both flaps and aileron control moves one flap?  That makes sense.  But you need a programmable controller to do this I'm guessing.  Do the mid price range radios have those functions?

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

I am sure there are exceptions, but, most "ccomputer" transmitters with at least 6 channels have flaperon mixing.

In a mode one system, throttle and aileron are controlled with the right stick. Flaperons are activated with a switch or knob and turning it on moves both ailerons down (or up) a certain percentage of the total available travel. Moving the aileron stick still moves the ailerons normally but the amount they can move is limited because part of the travel has already been used.


In "normal" operation, moving the elevator stick does NOT cause flap or aileron to move. DR1's example is a specific mix that probably is activated by a switch and used to make really tight loops.

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

What he said..."Normal" flaperons are operated by a rotating knob on the transmitter (the flap control) and are independent of other controls. Our case was special use. One aileron servo is plugged into the aileron channel and the other is plugged into the flap channel, then you mix the two. Getting the directions and percentages of movement can be a little bit of a bear to get set up right.

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

No, you misunderstood the poster.

Normally flaperons are an attempt to add a flap like function to a plane that has NO working flaps.

Instead the ailerons are moved down in unison a BIT, while still continuing to work as ailerons, in an attempt to give the plane more lift.

This was often then coupled to an elevator via yet ANOTHER mixing function on a computer controlled radio, to make the plane perform very tight loops. But this was never the primary reason for flaperon mixing.

However flaperons can act to get you in trouble. They will cause a wing to stall more quickly, so it is best to avoid flaperons for your purposes ( landings and short field takeoffs ).

Yes you need a programmable radio.

Most non-entry level computer controlled transmitters have flaperon and other advanced mixing functions. Functions that make "mid priced" TX's worth while.

Now-a-days you can find computer controlled radios down to $170.00 or so in price. Well within the Entry level or beginner's price ranges, but often overlooked.

The "mid priced" TX's in the $300-600.00 range have quite advanced mixing and features.

The "high priced" units all but make coffee for you.

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

G'day

Computer radios can do all sorts of things. Flaperons is one of the ones best avoided for beginners. Yes, you can do it , but for most of us it is best avoided as it tends to create a plane that becomes less stable and wants to rock and roll all over the place.

On most models the flaps are near the fuselage and the ailerons at the outer end of the wing. With flaperons, the whole length of the moving surface becomes aileron and flap and big flaps are generally not good for stability.

A friend has a model of a Pilatus PC-9 which is an advanced trainer used by the Royal Australian Air Forcel. He did not build the model. The real aeroplane has flaps but the model has been built without them though they are an option on the plan. He tried using flaperons to slow this slippery model down but it just turned a nice flying model into an evil handling monster. He has abandoned that idea and is now about to embark on building a completely new model from the same Airborne plans and this time he is going to incorporate flaps and retracts.

Now Elevons is a good one which you can use on flying wing type planes like the Me-163. In this case, the two movable surfaces on the back of the wing do double duty as elevators (moving up and down together) and ailerons (moving opposite each other). This also needs two aileron servos.

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

Ok, now that everybody has said "what" flaperons are, and "how" they are setup, I'm going to go back to what Minnflyer said above in the second post. Forget you heard about them.

This isn't to say that flaperons can't be used at all, because as DR1 Driver said, there are legitimate uses for them. But for beginners it's not a good idea for them. And here's why. They make the plane more prone to crashing. Why? Well, as Jetmech05 said flaps do produce lift when they are deployed but they also produce drag. Normal flaps are usually located in the inward portion of the wing close to the fuselage of the plane. When the flaps deploy the entire plane slows as  the drag increases, but it does so evenly because the flaps deploy evenly on both sides. Now when you move the flaps out to the wing tips and combine them with ailerons you setup a condition that could be very bad. With the flaps deployed and you move the ailerons you can cause the wingtip to slow to the point that it stalls, but ONLY the wingtip stalls, which causes what is called tip stall. When that wingtip stops flying and stalls it's going to drop. At altitude this isn't an issue because you usually have room to recover. But at just a few feet over the runway you won't have room to recover from the tip stall and will drive the plane into the ground wingtip first. NOT a good situation for a beginner.  

This is why there normally aren't recommended for beginners.

Ken

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

Flap and flaperons are not for a beginner. If your plane needs them, you should not be flying it.

Tom

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

Listen to what Ken said. I have used them on planes for years but only on FUN FLY COMPITION PLANES AND FOR COMPITION ONLY. Well usually. I have always slaved them with something else too, usually the elevator one way or another. At the moment I only have one plane set up with them and they are slaved to my elevator so as i add more elevator the flaps/ailerons drop. This set up is on a fun fly plane too, an old HOTS. I only use them to fool around in high winds. I have almost lost this plane on more then one occasion when I forget to turn them off and do a landing. The plane gets close to the ground and drops too much speed and tip stalls, right now, no warning. On a calm day they can bite me quick if I have been fooling with them and forget to turn the switch off. They have there place in flying but they do nothing good for most pilots except create problems. I don't even teach how to set them up to students. If a student decides he just wants to fool with them it's all on there heads, not mine.

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

My addition to this is what I've said numerous times before. Flaperons reduce the effectiveness of the ailerons. When deployed, the ailerons move down in unison, as said above. Then, what remains of aileron action is limited by, subtracted from, the aileron movement at a critical time, which is during slow movement during an approach and landing.

As GrayBeard, Ken, Minnflyer and others said, they are fine at altitude, but use them when you need aileron control, is just not a good idea.

CGr.

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

http://www.minnartist.com/RCU/grafix/popcorn.gif

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

I see you got the munchies!!! BTDT;)

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

Alrighty then.  I think I get the idea of it.  I wasn't planning on putting them on my planes (unless everyone agreed it was a good idea of course).  I was just curious as to what and how?  So thank you all for your descriptions.  Much appreciated.:)

Cheers

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

Flapperons, or otherwise commonly known as "Flappinontoomuch" is the horizontalopening between the wife's nose and chin.
(and it's a wonder whyI've been married three times)

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

I hope you mean the horizontal opening - otherwise you have a whole new problem [X(]

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

Thanks for the correction. No wonder I can't fly for crap. LOL

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

The biggest problem with them, when you're on approach and move the ailerons, you dump the extra lift created on one side.

IF you're going to do it, make sure its on a plane with full span ailerons, doing it on anything with wing tip ailerons is a BAD thing, you're creating wash in, which is the last thing you want during a landing approach.

They can be cool to play with but definately not while you're learning to fly.

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

Iwant a radio that makes coffee!

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

Get an 11x then :)

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

Now spoilerons, they're OK. :D:D:D

I have flaperons set-up on one model, but that one has tapered ailerons that don't extend to the wingtips. You'll note that in more advanced models with butterfly or CROW mix the outer ailerons lift (aka "spoilerons"). That gives added wash-out and prevents a low-speed stall. If you're slowed on approach and trigger flaperons you run a big risk of stalling one wing panel should you mistakenly try to correct a low altitude roll problem with ailerons instead of rudder.

Since 90% of flyers (not just beginners) would use ailerons in that situation, you can see why it's not generally a good idea. Flaperons down on slow approach near the ground, left wing drops, you give right aileron stick which lowers the flaperon on the left side even more and stalls the left wing completely. Model rolls left (opposite to stick input!), strikes a wingtip and cartwheels into pieces and you yell "I got hit!" instead of "I was dumb!"

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

If I ever want to make coffee, I'll think about it.

Now if I want to fly, I'll use my 10C :D

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

I think that statement is a bit too harsh and negative. I've used flaperons to good effect but they certainly aren't for beginners and as with any new technique are best practiced at 3 mistakes high. Then you can see if they help or harm your plane and what you are trying to gain with it. Most new configuration / technique / setups complicates things and breaks the keep it simple rule, but they can provide advantages in some situations that make it worth the complication.

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

They are fun to play with and if your in a fun fly. First time I set them up in an Up-Roar everyone told me how bad they were and I was going to crash, I liked them but i did forget they were on in one compition and just couldn't figure out what was going on. My fault and it was my first fun fly event. After a person has been flying for a while they are worth setting up and fooling around with just to see what they make a plane do. I did and in some cases they are a hoot, other times they can bite you pretty bad and quick. They sure aren't for every plane and every pilot.

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

Oh yeah.. you are so right. I had a Goldberg Wildstick with real flaps and, of course, ailerons. This thing could reverse directions in it's length (it seemed) when I applied full flaps.. I could deploy them, then pull in full elevator and it would just flip over in the opposite direction.

The loop rate was so much fun. It was a cool plane with the flaps... but these were not flaperons.. I had full control of the ailerons. Different from flaperions.

CGr.

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

I think you nailed the root issue right there.
Years ago I too thought they were just fun to play with. Flip them on and do some neat tricks then turn them off before trying to land to avoid any nasty slow flight characteristics. Every plane I had at the time had full length ailerons and what I didnt know was how flapperons created wash-in.

My thoughts today though are a little different.
1. I agree that newbies should leave them alone. For the most part I think you should avoid flapperons on any plane that has full length strip ailerons. Unless your just doing some fun-fly stunts. The wash-in is horrible when trying to land.

2. If you have a plane that has 3/4 length ailerons, as measured starting at the fuse, then flapperons could be a huge benefit for landing heavy planes. Because the ailerons are short of the wing tip by a fair margin then the dreaded wash-in problem is avoided. Flapperons are typically larger in area vs. normal flaps so you dont need nearly the amount of throw to get noticable lift or drag. Also, of the two planes I have setup with flapperons, it took me several test flights to find the balance of lift vs. drag thats comfortable for my flying style. Both planes also have a flap-elevator mix to compensate for the pitching down.
About forgot. Because one of the planes I have is borderline needing flaps or not, Ive found the flapperons to be most beneficial in winds less than 7mph. Anything higher theyre just not required.

Cheers,
James

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

My CG Extra turns into a complete hand full if I use them, my Hots is a kick with them in the wind. Where I have run into trouble with them is on a calm day and I forget I have them on and try to land. The Hots hits a slow speed and just stalls right then and there. It does give me warning but if I'm not thinking about what I'm doing I forget what it is telling me. I have bent the LG more then once over the years when I forget the switch!!

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

Yeap. Makes total sense to me. Those planes fall into rule #1.
Ive had many planes that Ive never tried flapperons on because Im sure it would be a waist of time or the novelty would wear off. Those planes had full length ailerons or ailerons that were placed to close to the wing tip, a light wing loading (voids the need for flaps) or are not fun-fly machines.
There arent many planes that Im aware of that fit rule #2.
Cheers.

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

Certainly flaperons are not for every plane, nor every pilot but I have flown them extensively over the past two years on a Kadet LT40.  Before setting them up, I modified the ailerons from approximately 3/4" wide by full length (as supplied by Sig) to nearly 2 inches wide by full length.  They are operated by a 3 position switch on the radio-normal, 15 degrees down flaps, and 30 degrees down flaps.  They only tend to tip stall if you are flying extremely slow (walking speed) but the ailerons retain enough authority even to correct a stall at low altitudes.  In a stiff breeze the plane will land vertically from 100' or more.  Just to show off, I deploy the flaps, set the plane on the end of one of our 7' set up tables and gunning it from an idle, the plane is airborne before the end of the table, even on a calm day.  Last week, I goofed and set it on one of the 4' tables.  It dropped as it came off the end but still flew before hitting the ground.

One of our better pilots was stunned when he did three rolling circles with my plane in just over the 100' width of our runway.  He said he had never been able to do that with a trainer.

I nearly always use the flaps on landing but sometimes I land with the wind to effectively slow the plane a bit.  Otherwise it just floats on past the end of the runway.  When deployed at full throttle and at altitude, the plane rises dramatically but without pitch or roll change.  Backing off the throttle first just slows it down when they are deployed.  One day, just for fun, I was able to make four takeoffs to 4 or 5 feet and full stop landings in the 400' length of our runway.

It does take practice but IMHO is well worth the effort.  I have a number of other, faster, planes but this is still my favorite.  This winter I plan to add droop tips and leading edge slats in the quest for the ultimate slow-flying plane.  Don't be afraid to experiment!

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

That sounds like it might be something I could do later on down the track if my LT-40 stays in one piece.:D

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

i have heard of people using the Ailerons as spoilerons to create wash out to slow the model down on Extra's and Edges, is this a better option than using them as flapperons??

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

Yes. But it depends. Spoilerons "spoil" the airflow over the wing, though only at the trailing edge, giving you less lift, higher wing loading and effectively lowering the main wing's angle of attack. Less lift brings you in steeper . . . but less angle of attack brings you in faster. If you have a good, low idle then they are helpful. If you can't slow down the model BEFORE deploying them they may not be a good alternative. Gliders, with glide ratio out the giggie, use them for landing.

An Edge? You have enough control throw to Harrier in, and a lower pitched prop would be a better solution to slow a landing.

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

I have to agree with Charlie concerning the Edge and Extras. I have an Edge that would float forever with a high pitch prop. I had to beg it to land. But just dropping the pitch and increasing the diameter some fixed the problem and turned the plane into a different bird.

On a pattern ship I had, I used spoilerons so I could better stick the landings. Because of many factors like engine, prop ground clearance and landing gear the easy solution was to setup an elevator-spoileron mix. As I applied up elevator to hold pitch on approach the spoileron would raise just enough to kill some lift. I loved it and the only time I didnt use the mix was on calm days.

Cheers.

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

I'm a bit confused here...  My instructor is teaching me to use rudder for roll and lateral correction on landing.  He said using ailerons so close to the ground can cause one of the wings to stall and roll it over into the ground.  So if you are not using ailerons on landing why wouldn't flaperons work????

RE: What are Flapperons???
 

You use the rudder to correct heading, the ailerons to correct roll.

If you're learning how to land the last thing you need to worry about is flaps or flapperons.