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Brushless Motor questions.

Old 03-02-2004, 11:07 PM
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Dopesick
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Default Brushless Motor questions.

Evening all, Few questions....

Im interested in taking my GWS E-Starter over to the "light side" and running a brushless motor. my ideas are leaning towards a Hacker B20 series motor mounted in a GWS gearbox of 5.33:1. As for that is what is in there now. Only with a "Speed 300" motor or so designated as a GWS 350c Motor.

Now first off, I run Thunder Power Li-po 2 cell 2100mAh packs. I am thinking, with brushless you can also run 3 cell packs.

can anyone help me crunch some numbers on WHICH motor would be the proper setup? I'm looking for SAME or better speed, and or better flight times, and better motor life. I'm stuck between Hacker B20 12L, 15L, or 18L NON-Planetery geared.. So the motor shaft HAS to be 2.3mm. I am also open to other brand of motors as well!

here's the stock pecs of the plane, flying weight is without electrics. I would assume electrics added 2-5 oz.

Length 725 mm (30.54 in)
Wing Span 960 mm (37.80 in)
Wing Area 17.1dm² (265sq in)

Flying Weight 430 g (15 oz)

Wing Loading 28 g /dm² (9 oz/sq.ft)

Power System EPS-350C (C-Gear ratio 5.33:1)

Propeller EP1080 10x8

Suggested Servos PICO,NARO/MICRO/MINI

Suggested Speed controller ICS-400 above

Radio Required 3~4-Channel radio
Old 03-02-2004, 11:16 PM
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Wayne Miller
 
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Default RE: Brushless Motor questions.

Hi Dopesick,

I've just downloaded Motocalc for their 30 day trial period, the site address is: http://www.motocalc.com/

Why don't you go there and down load the software, that way you can run all the different motors, props, gearing etc. and find out which one suits you best.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Wayne Miller
Old 03-02-2004, 11:29 PM
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Default RE: Brushless Motor questions.

I would like to suggest himax 2015-5400 used in gws geared box that came with the plane to run with your 2s 2100s or if you want to run 3 cells get a 2015-4100. Either way these are great little motors that will give you an increase in power, efficiency, and reliability. These motors are only $50
Old 03-02-2004, 11:47 PM
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Default RE: Brushless Motor questions.

Okay I'm having a bit of difficulty with MotoCalc. When loading a Thunder Power battery the 2100 in question, Do I have to tell it how mny cells are there, or does it automatically have this info ?
Old 03-03-2004, 12:17 AM
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Default RE: Brushless Motor questions.

Hi Dopesick,

I had the same problem getting used to Motocalc, I'm just a beginner with it as well, but hopefully I can help you from my mistakes.

What I do is go to the top tab and select BATTERY, then OPEN, then select the battery and you must select the number of cells.

To get started, I think you should explore each tab at the top and enter the information that suits your system.

What I did was set up the page completely with all the settings and then saved it. After that I changed the settings as needed. I also got confused with the propellers. They will ask for the minimum diameter and maximum diameter as well as the minimum pitch and maximum pitch. When you hit COMPUTE REPORT at the bottom, it will print out all the information for the different propeller sizes.

Similarly, if you tell it to print the information for LiPo's for 2 cell minimum and 3 cell maximum, it will print the information for both.

Since you only have Motocalc for 30 days, you may want to print out the results.

Notice the information at the top left of the printout to verify your inputs were correct.

I didn't understand the program at first, but the more I use it, the better I like it and will probably be purchasing it.

Hope the above helps.

Best regards,

Wayne Miller
Old 03-03-2004, 09:50 PM
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Default RE: Brushless Motor questions.

Maybe you can give this a look over.. I like the idea of it since all I have to do, is get a gearbox setup for it.. Only 1 question, IS the Hacker B20 18L available with a 2.3mm shaft?

MotOpinion - Untitled
25ft above Sea Level, 29.92inHg, 70°F

Motor: Hacker B20 18L; 3086rpm/V; 0.4A no-load; 0.092 Ohms.
Battery: Thunder Power TP2100; 2 series x 2 parallel cells; 2100mAh @ 3.7V; 0.022 Ohms/cell.
Speed Control: Castle Creations Phoenix 35; 0.0045 Ohms; High rate.
Drive System: Generic 9x6in Prop w/3:1 Gearbox; 10x8 (Pconst=1.25; Tconst=0.956) geared 2.8:1 (Eff=95%).
Airframe: GWS E-Starter; 265sq.in; 22.6oz; 12.3oz/sq.ft; Cd=0.055; Cl=0.47; Clopt=0.67; Clmax=1.24.
Stats: 77 W/lb in; 55 W/lb out; 16mph stall; 22mph opt @ 49% (129:14, 76°F); 27mph level @ 56% (99:21, 77°F); 984ft/min @ 30.2°; -205ft/min @ -6°.

Power System Notes:

The full-throttle motor current at the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed (15.7A) falls between the motor's maximum efficiency current (5.1A) and its current at theoretical maximum output (33.2A), thus making effective use of the motor.

Possible Aerodynamic Problems:

The diameter (10in) to pitch (8in) ratio is less than 1.5:1, which will result in reduced propeller efficiency at low speeds (the propeller is stalled). Although this is not likely to affect flying characteristics, it may make take-off or hand launching difficult.

Aerodynamic Notes:

The static pitch speed (45mph) is within the range of approximately 2.5 to 3 times the model's stall speed (16mph), which is considered ideal for good performance.
With a wing loading of 12.3oz/sq.ft, a model of this size will have trainer-like flying characteristics. It would make an ideal trainer, for use in calm to light wind conditions.
The static thrust (17.7oz) to weight (22.6oz) ratio is 0.78:1, which will result in very short take-off runs, no difficulty taking off from grass surfaces (assuming sufficiently large wheels), and steep climb-outs.
At the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed, the excess-thrust (11.2oz) to weight (22.6oz) ratio is 0.5:1, which will give steep climbs and excellent acceleration. This model should be able to do consecutive loops, and has sufficient in-flight thrust for almost any aerobatic maneuver.

General Notes:

This analysis is based on calculations that take motor heating effects into account.

In-flight Analysis - Untitled
25ft above Sea Level, 29.92inHg, 70°F

Motor: Hacker B20 18L; 3086rpm/V; 0.4A no-load; 0.092 Ohms.
Battery: Thunder Power TP2100; 2 series x 2 parallel cells; 2100mAh @ 3.7V; 0.022 Ohms/cell.
Speed Control: Castle Creations Phoenix 35; 0.0045 Ohms; High rate.
Drive System: Generic 9x6in Prop w/3:1 Gearbox; 10x8 (Pconst=1.25; Tconst=0.956) geared 2.8:1 (Eff=95%).
Airframe: GWS E-Starter; 265sq.in; 22.6oz; 12.3oz/sq.ft; Cd=0.055; Cl=0.47; Clopt=0.67; Clmax=1.24.
Stats: 77 W/lb in; 55 W/lb out; 16mph stall; 22mph opt @ 49% (129:14, 76°F); 27mph level @ 56% (99:21, 77°F); 984ft/min @ 30.2°; -205ft/min @ -6°.

AirSpd Drag Lift Batt Motor Motor Input Loss MGbOut MotGb Shaft Motor Prop Thrust PSpd Prop Total Time
(mph) (oz) (oz) Amps Amps Volts (W) (W) (W) Ef(%) Ef(%) RPM RPM (oz) (mph) Ef(%) Ef(%) (m:s)

0.0 0.0 0.0 15.6 15.6 7.0 109.0 31.8 77.2 70.8 66.9 16500 5893 17.7 44.6 0.0 0.0 16:09
1.0 0.0 0.0 15.6 15.6 7.0 109.0 31.8 77.2 70.8 66.9 16500 5893 17.5 43.6 2.8 1.9 16:09
2.0 0.0 0.1 15.6 15.6 7.0 109.0 31.8 77.2 70.8 66.9 16498 5892 17.3 42.6 5.5 3.7 16:09
3.0 0.0 0.3 15.6 15.6 7.0 109.1 31.9 77.3 70.8 66.8 16492 5890 17.1 41.6 8.2 5.5 16:08
4.0 0.1 0.5 15.6 15.6 7.0 109.2 31.9 77.3 70.8 66.8 16483 5887 16.9 40.6 10.8 7.2 16:07
5.0 0.1 0.8 15.7 15.7 7.0 109.4 32.0 77.4 70.7 66.8 16473 5883 16.7 39.6 13.4 9.0 16:06
6.0 0.1 1.1 15.7 15.7 7.0 109.5 32.1 77.4 70.7 66.7 16462 5879 16.6 38.5 15.9 10.6 16:04
7.0 0.2 1.6 15.7 15.7 7.0 109.7 32.2 77.5 70.7 66.7 16449 5875 16.4 37.5 18.3 12.2 16:03
8.0 0.2 2.0 15.7 15.7 7.0 109.9 32.3 77.6 70.6 66.6 16436 5870 16.2 36.5 20.7 13.8 16:01
9.0 0.3 2.6 15.8 15.8 7.0 110.1 32.4 77.7 70.6 66.6 16423 5865 16.0 35.4 23.0 15.3 15:59
10.0 0.4 3.2 15.8 15.8 7.0 110.2 32.5 77.7 70.5 66.5 16409 5860 15.9 34.4 25.3 16.8 15:58
11.0 0.5 3.9 15.8 15.8 7.0 110.4 32.6 77.8 70.5 66.5 16396 5856 15.7 33.4 27.5 18.3 15:56
12.0 0.5 4.6 15.8 15.8 7.0 110.6 32.7 77.9 70.4 66.4 16384 5851 15.5 32.3 29.6 19.7 15:55
13.0 0.6 5.4 15.9 15.9 7.0 110.7 32.8 77.9 70.4 66.4 16373 5847 15.3 31.3 31.7 21.1 15:53
14.0 0.7 6.3 15.9 15.9 7.0 110.8 32.9 78.0 70.4 66.4 16363 5844 15.1 30.3 33.7 22.4 15:52
15.0 0.9 7.2 15.9 15.9 7.0 110.9 32.9 78.0 70.3 66.3 16355 5841 15.0 29.3 35.6 23.6 15:51
16.0 1.0 8.2 15.9 15.9 7.0 111.0 33.0 78.1 70.3 66.3 16349 5839 14.8 28.2 37.5 24.9 15:50
17.0 1.1 9.2 15.9 15.9 7.0 111.1 33.0 78.1 70.3 66.3 16346 5838 14.6 27.2 39.3 26.1 15:50
18.0 1.2 10.3 15.9 15.9 7.0 111.1 33.0 78.1 70.3 66.3 16345 5838 14.4 26.2 41.0 27.2 15:50
19.0 1.4 11.5 15.9 15.9 7.0 111.0 33.0 78.0 70.3 66.3 16351 5839 14.1 25.2 42.7 28.3 15:51
20.0 1.5 12.8 15.9 15.9 7.0 110.8 32.9 78.0 70.4 66.4 16362 5844 13.9 24.3 44.3 29.4 15:52
21.0 1.7 14.1 15.8 15.8 7.0 110.6 32.7 77.9 70.4 66.4 16380 5850 13.7 23.3 45.8 30.4 15:54
22.0 1.8 15.5 15.8 15.8 7.0 110.3 32.5 77.7 70.5 66.5 16404 5859 13.5 22.4 47.2 31.4 15:57
23.0 2.0 16.9 15.7 15.7 7.0 109.9 32.3 77.6 70.6 66.6 16434 5869 13.2 21.5 48.6 32.4 16:01
24.0 2.2 18.4 15.7 15.7 7.0 109.4 32.0 77.4 70.7 66.8 16470 5882 13.0 20.6 49.8 33.3 16:06
25.0 2.4 20.0 15.6 15.6 7.0 108.9 31.7 77.2 70.9 66.9 16505 5895 12.7 19.7 51.0 34.1 16:10
26.0 2.6 21.6 15.5 15.5 7.0 108.3 31.4 76.9 71.0 67.1 16552 5911 12.4 18.8 52.2 35.0 16:16
27.0 2.8 23.3 15.4 15.4 7.0 107.5 31.0 76.6 71.2 67.3 16604 5930 12.2 17.9 53.2 35.8 16:23
28.0 3.0 25.0 15.3 15.3 7.0 106.8 30.5 76.2 71.4 67.5 16662 5951 11.9 17.1 54.2 36.6 16:31
29.0 3.2 26.9 15.1 15.1 7.0 105.9 30.1 75.8 71.6 67.7 16725 5973 11.6 16.3 55.1 37.4 16:39
30.0 3.4 28.7 15.0 15.0 7.0 105.0 29.5 75.4 71.8 68.0 16792 5997 11.4 15.4 56.0 38.1 16:49
31.0 3.6 30.7 14.8 14.8 7.0 103.9 29.0 74.9 72.1 68.3 16865 6023 11.1 14.6 56.8 38.8 16:59
32.0 3.9 32.7 14.7 14.7 7.0 102.9 28.4 74.4 72.4 68.6 16942 6051 10.8 13.8 57.5 39.4 17:11
33.0 4.1 34.8 14.5 14.5 7.0 101.7 27.8 73.9 72.6 68.9 17024 6080 10.5 13.1 58.2 40.1 17:23
34.0 4.4 36.9 14.3 14.3 7.0 100.5 27.2 73.3 72.9 69.2 17110 6111 10.2 12.3 58.8 40.7 17:36
35.0 4.6 39.1 14.1 14.1 7.0 99.1 26.5 72.6 73.2 69.5 17203 6144 9.9 11.5 59.4 41.3 17:52
36.0 4.9 41.4 13.9 13.9 7.0 97.7 25.8 71.9 73.6 69.9 17304 6180 9.6 10.8 59.9 41.9 18:09
37.0 5.2 43.7 13.7 13.7 7.0 96.1 25.1 71.0 73.9 70.3 17413 6219 9.4 10.1 60.4 42.5 18:27
38.0 5.5 46.1 13.4 13.4 7.0 94.4 24.3 70.1 74.3 70.7 17528 6260 9.1 9.4 60.8 43.0 18:48
39.0 5.8 48.6 13.1 13.1 7.1 92.6 23.4 69.2 74.7 71.2 17649 6303 8.8 8.8 61.2 43.6 19:11
40.0 6.1 51.1 12.8 12.8 7.1 90.7 22.6 68.1 75.1 71.6 17776 6349 8.4 8.1 61.5 44.1 19:37
41.0 6.4 53.7 12.5 12.5 7.1 88.7 21.7 67.0 75.5 72.1 17909 6396 8.1 7.5 61.8 44.6 20:05
42.0 6.7 56.3 12.2 12.2 7.1 86.5 20.8 65.7 75.9 72.6 18047 6445 7.8 6.8 62.1 45.1 20:36
43.0 7.0 59.1 11.9 11.9 7.1 84.3 19.9 64.4 76.4 73.1 18191 6497 7.5 6.2 62.3 45.6 21:11

Note: Motor performance calculations take ambient temperature and heating effects into account.

Generated by MotoCalc 7.08, 3/3/2004 6:47 PM.
Old 03-04-2004, 07:05 PM
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Wayne Miller
 
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Default RE: Brushless Motor questions.

Hi Dopesick,

Again, I'm just starting to use the calculator myself and so we may need someone else with more experience to jump in and help us out, I may not be doing this correctly.

From your information, I think everything is OK. However, I do question why there is two cells in series in parallel.

I like to do aerobatics with my plane so what I do is take the wieght of the plane, and look for the prop that will give me the same thrust in the calculator with my motor. This then becomes the starting point for my selection.

The real test for me is to mount the different props on the plane and point the plane nose up, and give full throttle, I expect the plane to become weightless or to "just" lift (for me more lift is better). Once I find the props that will do this, I then go back to the calculator and check which of the props that give me the least amount of amp draw from my batteries, and therefore more flying time.

The next step is to go to the field and fly to confirm my prop selection, sometimes I need to go the next prop up (in thrust) to give good loops.

Again, I'm sure there are many people more qualified than I and I hope they will jump in and help us out here.

Best regards,

Wayne Miller
Old 03-04-2004, 11:01 PM
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Default RE: Brushless Motor questions.

hmm ya know I think I have a problem there, I dont remember telling it 2 cells in parrallel
Old 03-04-2004, 11:21 PM
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Default RE: Brushless Motor questions.

Okay here's the redone stats. Looks pretty well so far. And if I transfer over the motor, gearing, and go with a different prop size, THIS WILL WORK in the Formosa I will build next too!!!

MotOpinion - GWS - E-Starter Hacker B20 18L - 1080 Prop 2.8:1 GWS 350c "A" Gearing gearbox

25ft above Sea Level, 29.92inHg, 70°F

Motor: Hacker B20 18L; 3086rpm/V; 0.4A no-load; 0.092 Ohms.
Battery: Thunder Power TP2100; 2 cells; 2100mAh @ 3.7V; 0.022 Ohms/cell.
Speed Control: Castle Creations Phoenix 35; 0.0045 Ohms; High rate.
Drive System: Generic 9x6in Prop w/3:1 Gearbox; 10x8 (Pconst=1.25; Tconst=0.956) geared 2.8:1 (Eff=95%).
Airframe: GWS E-Starter; 265sq.in; 19.7oz; 10.7oz/sq.ft; Cd=0.055; Cl=0.47; Clopt=0.67; Clmax=1.24.
Stats: 80 W/lb in; 57 W/lb out; 15mph stall; 21mph opt @ 47% (73:50, 75°F); 25mph level @ 54% (55:25, 76°F); 1023ft/min @ 34.1°; -191ft/min @ -6°.

Power System Notes:

The full-throttle motor current at the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed (14.8A) falls between the motor's maximum efficiency current (5.1A) and its current at theoretical maximum output (32.2A), thus making effective use of the motor.

Possible Aerodynamic Problems:

The diameter (10in) to pitch (8in) ratio is less than 1.5:1, which will result in reduced propeller efficiency at low speeds (the propeller is stalled). Although this is not likely to affect flying characteristics, it may make take-off or hand launching difficult.

Aerodynamic Notes:

The static pitch speed (43mph) is within the range of approximately 2.5 to 3 times the model's stall speed (15mph), which is considered ideal for good performance.
With a wing loading of 10.7oz/sq.ft, a model of this size will have trainer-like flying characteristics. It would make an ideal trainer, for use in calm to light wind conditions.
The static thrust (16.6oz) to weight (19.7oz) ratio is 0.84:1, which will result in very short take-off runs, no difficulty taking off from grass surfaces (assuming sufficiently large wheels), and steep climb-outs.
At the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed, the excess-thrust (11oz) to weight (19.7oz) ratio is 0.56:1, which will give steep climbs and excellent acceleration. This model should be able to do consecutive loops, and has sufficient in-flight thrust for almost any aerobatic maneuver.

General Notes:

This analysis is based on calculations that take motor heating effects into account.

In-flight Analysis - GWS - E-Starter Hacker B20 18L - 1080 Prop 2.8:1 GWS 350c "A" Gearing gearbox

25ft above Sea Level, 29.92inHg, 70°F

Motor: Hacker B20 18L; 3086rpm/V; 0.4A no-load; 0.092 Ohms.
Battery: Thunder Power TP2100; 2 cells; 2100mAh @ 3.7V; 0.022 Ohms/cell.
Speed Control: Castle Creations Phoenix 35; 0.0045 Ohms; High rate.
Drive System: Generic 9x6in Prop w/3:1 Gearbox; 10x8 (Pconst=1.25; Tconst=0.956) geared 2.8:1 (Eff=95%).
Airframe: GWS E-Starter; 265sq.in; 19.7oz; 10.7oz/sq.ft; Cd=0.055; Cl=0.47; Clopt=0.67; Clmax=1.24.
Stats: 80 W/lb in; 57 W/lb out; 15mph stall; 21mph opt @ 47% (73:50, 75°F); 25mph level @ 54% (55:25, 76°F); 1023ft/min @ 34.1°; -191ft/min @ -6°.

AirSpd Drag Lift Batt Motor Motor Input Loss MGbOut MotGb Shaft Motor Prop Thrust PSpd Prop Total Time
(mph) (oz) (oz) Amps Amps Volts (W) (W) (W) Ef(%) Ef(%) RPM RPM (oz) (mph) Ef(%) Ef(%) (m:s)

0.0 0.0 0.0 14.6 14.6 6.7 98.0 27.9 70.0 71.5 64.6 15971 5704 16.6 43.2 0.0 0.0 8:36
1.0 0.0 0.0 14.6 14.6 6.7 98.0 27.9 70.0 71.5 64.6 15971 5704 16.4 42.2 2.9 1.9 8:36
2.0 0.0 0.1 14.6 14.6 6.7 98.0 27.9 70.1 71.5 64.6 15969 5703 16.2 41.2 5.7 3.7 8:36
3.0 0.0 0.3 14.7 14.7 6.7 98.1 28.0 70.1 71.5 64.6 15962 5701 16.0 40.2 8.5 5.5 8:36
4.0 0.1 0.5 14.7 14.7 6.7 98.2 28.0 70.1 71.4 64.6 15953 5698 15.8 39.2 11.2 7.2 8:35
5.0 0.1 0.8 14.7 14.7 6.7 98.3 28.1 70.2 71.4 64.5 15943 5694 15.7 38.1 13.8 8.9 8:34
6.0 0.1 1.1 14.7 14.7 6.7 98.4 28.2 70.2 71.4 64.5 15931 5689 15.5 37.1 16.4 10.6 8:34
7.0 0.2 1.6 14.7 14.7 6.7 98.6 28.3 70.3 71.3 64.4 15918 5685 15.3 36.1 18.9 12.2 8:33
8.0 0.2 2.0 14.8 14.8 6.7 98.7 28.4 70.4 71.3 64.4 15904 5680 15.1 35.0 21.4 13.7 8:32
9.0 0.3 2.6 14.8 14.8 6.7 98.9 28.5 70.4 71.2 64.3 15890 5675 15.0 34.0 23.7 15.3 8:31
10.0 0.4 3.2 14.8 14.8 6.7 99.0 28.5 70.5 71.2 64.3 15877 5670 14.8 33.0 26.0 16.7 8:30
11.0 0.5 3.9 14.8 14.8 6.7 99.2 28.6 70.5 71.1 64.2 15863 5665 14.6 31.9 28.3 18.2 8:29
12.0 0.5 4.6 14.9 14.9 6.7 99.3 28.7 70.6 71.1 64.2 15851 5661 14.5 30.9 30.5 19.6 8:28
13.0 0.6 5.4 14.9 14.9 6.7 99.4 28.8 70.6 71.1 64.1 15840 5657 14.3 29.9 32.6 20.9 8:28
14.0 0.7 6.3 14.9 14.9 6.7 99.5 28.8 70.7 71.0 64.1 15831 5654 14.1 28.8 34.6 22.2 8:27
15.0 0.9 7.2 14.9 14.9 6.7 99.6 28.9 70.7 71.0 64.1 15824 5651 13.9 27.8 36.6 23.4 8:27
16.0 1.0 8.2 14.9 14.9 6.7 99.7 28.9 70.7 71.0 64.0 15819 5650 13.7 26.8 38.5 24.6 8:26
17.0 1.1 9.2 14.9 14.9 6.7 99.7 28.9 70.8 71.0 64.0 15817 5649 13.5 25.8 40.3 25.8 8:26
18.0 1.2 10.3 14.9 14.9 6.7 99.6 28.9 70.7 71.0 64.0 15820 5650 13.3 24.8 42.1 26.9 8:27
19.0 1.4 11.5 14.9 14.9 6.7 99.5 28.8 70.7 71.0 64.1 15829 5653 13.1 23.8 43.7 28.0 8:27
20.0 1.5 12.8 14.9 14.9 6.7 99.4 28.7 70.6 71.1 64.1 15845 5659 12.9 22.9 45.3 29.1 8:28
21.0 1.7 14.1 14.8 14.8 6.7 99.1 28.6 70.5 71.1 64.2 15868 5667 12.7 21.9 46.8 30.1 8:30
22.0 1.8 15.5 14.8 14.8 6.7 98.8 28.4 70.4 71.2 64.3 15897 5678 12.4 21.0 48.2 31.0 8:32
23.0 2.0 16.9 14.7 14.7 6.7 98.4 28.2 70.2 71.4 64.5 15933 5690 12.2 20.1 49.5 31.9 8:34
24.0 2.2 18.4 14.6 14.6 6.7 98.0 27.9 70.0 71.5 64.6 15970 5704 12.0 19.2 50.8 32.8 8:36
25.0 2.4 20.0 14.6 14.6 6.7 97.5 27.7 69.8 71.6 64.8 16015 5720 11.7 18.3 52.0 33.7 8:39
26.0 2.6 21.6 14.5 14.5 6.7 96.9 27.3 69.5 71.8 65.0 16068 5739 11.4 17.5 53.1 34.5 8:43
27.0 2.8 23.3 14.3 14.3 6.7 96.2 26.9 69.2 72.0 65.2 16128 5760 11.2 16.6 54.1 35.3 8:47
28.0 3.0 25.0 14.2 14.2 6.7 95.5 26.5 68.9 72.2 65.5 16192 5783 10.9 15.8 55.1 36.0 8:51
29.0 3.2 26.9 14.1 14.1 6.7 94.7 26.1 68.6 72.4 65.7 16262 5808 10.7 15.0 56.0 36.8 8:56
30.0 3.4 28.7 14.0 14.0 6.7 93.8 25.7 68.2 72.7 66.0 16336 5834 10.4 14.2 56.8 37.5 9:02
31.0 3.6 30.7 13.8 13.8 6.7 92.9 25.2 67.7 72.9 66.3 16416 5863 10.1 13.4 57.5 38.2 9:08
32.0 3.9 32.7 13.6 13.6 6.7 91.9 24.7 67.2 73.2 66.6 16501 5893 9.9 12.6 58.2 38.8 9:14
33.0 4.1 34.8 13.5 13.5 6.7 90.9 24.1 66.7 73.4 67.0 16591 5925 9.6 11.9 58.9 39.4 9:21
34.0 4.4 36.9 13.3 13.3 6.8 89.7 23.5 66.2 73.7 67.3 16688 5960 9.3 11.2 59.4 40.0 9:29
35.0 4.6 39.1 13.1 13.1 6.8 88.5 22.9 65.5 74.1 67.7 16793 5998 9.1 10.4 60.0 40.6 9:38
36.0 4.9 41.4 12.9 12.9 6.8 87.1 22.3 64.8 74.4 68.1 16906 6038 8.8 9.7 60.4 41.2 9:48
37.0 5.2 43.7 12.6 12.6 6.8 85.6 21.6 64.0 74.8 68.6 17026 6081 8.5 9.1 60.9 41.7 9:59
38.0 5.5 46.1 12.4 12.4 6.8 84.1 20.9 63.2 75.1 69.0 17153 6126 8.2 8.4 61.2 42.3 10:11
39.0 5.8 48.6 12.1 12.1 6.8 82.5 20.2 62.3 75.5 69.5 17286 6174 7.9 7.8 61.6 42.8 10:25
40.0 6.1 51.1 11.8 11.8 6.8 80.7 19.4 61.3 75.9 70.0 17425 6223 7.6 7.1 61.9 43.3 10:39
41.0 6.4 53.7 11.5 11.5 6.8 78.9 18.7 60.2 76.3 70.6 17570 6275 7.4 6.5 62.1 43.8 10:56
42.0 6.7 56.3 11.2 11.2 6.9 77.0 17.9 59.1 76.7 71.1 17720 6329 7.1 5.9 62.3 44.3 11:13

Note: Motor performance calculations take ambient temperature and heating effects into account.

Generated by MotoCalc 7.08, 3/4/2004 8:18 PM.
Old 03-04-2004, 11:36 PM
  #10  
Dopesick
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Default RE: Brushless Motor questions.

Okay I am liking how this is looking, I will LOSE speed with the formosa, with this setup, BUT looks like it is saying acrobatics will be great! Almost near prop hang! All I have to do is change to the STOCK Formosa 10x6 Prop...

MotOpinion - GWS - Formosa - Hacker B20 18L - 1060 Prop 2.8:1 GWS 350c "A" Gearing gearbox
25ft above Sea Level, 29.92inHg, 70°F

Motor: Hacker B20 18L; 3086rpm/V; 0.4A no-load; 0.092 Ohms.
Battery: Thunder Power TP2100; 2 cells; 2100mAh @ 3.7V; 0.022 Ohms/cell.
Speed Control: Castle Creations Phoenix 35; 0.0045 Ohms; High rate.
Drive System: Generic 9x6in Prop w/3:1 Gearbox; 10x6 (Pconst=1.25; Tconst=0.956) geared 2.8:1 (Eff=95%).
Airframe: GWS Formosa; 256sq.in; 18.5oz; 10.4oz/sq.ft; Cd=0.056; Cl=0.47; Clopt=0.66; Clmax=1.24.
Stats: 74 W/lb in; 55 W/lb out; 15mph stall; 21mph opt @ 63% (69:13, 75°F); 25mph level @ 73% (54:27, 76°F); 906ft/min @ 29.9°; -196ft/min @ -6.2°.

Power System Notes:

The full-throttle motor current at the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed (11.2A) falls between the motor's maximum efficiency current (5.3A) and its current at theoretical maximum output (34.8A), thus making effective use of the motor.

Possible Aerodynamic Problems:

The static pitch speed (35mph) is less than 2.5 times the stall speed (15mph), which may result in reduced performance at typical flying speeds and a low maximum speed. This situation is usually acceptable for an electric sailplane or other slow-flying model.
Pitch speed can be increased by using a higher pitched and/or smaller diameter propeller, a lower gear ratio, a higher cell count, or some combination of these methods.

Aerodynamic Notes:

With a wing loading of 10.4oz/sq.ft, a model of this size will have trainer-like flying characteristics. It would make an ideal trainer, for use in calm to light wind conditions.
The static thrust (17.3oz) to weight (18.5oz) ratio is 0.93:1, which will result in very short take-off runs, no difficulty taking off from grass surfaces (assuming sufficiently large wheels), and steep climb-outs.
At the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed, the excess-thrust (9.2oz) to weight (18.5oz) ratio is 0.5:1, which will give steep climbs and excellent acceleration. This model should be able to do consecutive loops, and has sufficient in-flight thrust for almost any aerobatic maneuver.

General Notes:

This analysis is based on calculations that take motor heating effects into account.

In-flight Analysis - GWS - Formosa - Hacker B20 18L - 1060 Prop 2.8:1 GWS 350c "A" Gearing gearbox
25ft above Sea Level, 29.92inHg, 70°F

Motor: Hacker B20 18L; 3086rpm/V; 0.4A no-load; 0.092 Ohms.
Battery: Thunder Power TP2100; 2 cells; 2100mAh @ 3.7V; 0.022 Ohms/cell.
Speed Control: Castle Creations Phoenix 35; 0.0045 Ohms; High rate.
Drive System: Generic 9x6in Prop w/3:1 Gearbox; 10x6 (Pconst=1.25; Tconst=0.956) geared 2.8:1 (Eff=95%).
Airframe: GWS Formosa; 256sq.in; 18.5oz; 10.4oz/sq.ft; Cd=0.056; Cl=0.47; Clopt=0.66; Clmax=1.24.
Stats: 74 W/lb in; 55 W/lb out; 15mph stall; 21mph opt @ 63% (69:13, 75°F); 25mph level @ 73% (54:27, 76°F); 906ft/min @ 29.9°; -196ft/min @ -6.2°.

AirSpd Drag Lift Batt Motor Motor Input Loss MGbOut MotGb Shaft Motor Prop Thrust PSpd Prop Total Time
(mph) (oz) (oz) Amps Amps Volts (W) (W) (W) Ef(%) Ef(%) RPM RPM (oz) (mph) Ef(%) Ef(%) (m:s)

0.0 0.0 0.0 12.6 12.6 6.8 85.4 21.5 63.9 74.8 68.7 17051 6090 17.3 34.6 0.0 0.0 10:01
1.0 0.0 0.0 12.6 12.6 6.8 85.4 21.5 63.9 74.8 68.7 17051 6090 17.0 33.6 3.3 2.3 10:01
2.0 0.0 0.1 12.6 12.6 6.8 85.4 21.5 63.9 74.8 68.7 17050 6089 16.8 32.6 6.5 4.5 10:01
3.0 0.0 0.3 12.6 12.6 6.8 85.5 21.5 64.0 74.8 68.7 17045 6088 16.5 31.6 9.6 6.6 10:00
4.0 0.1 0.5 12.6 12.6 6.8 85.5 21.5 64.0 74.8 68.6 17039 6086 16.3 30.6 12.6 8.7 10:00
5.0 0.1 0.8 12.6 12.6 6.8 85.6 21.6 64.0 74.8 68.6 17033 6083 16.1 29.6 15.6 10.7 9:59
6.0 0.1 1.1 12.6 12.6 6.8 85.7 21.6 64.1 74.8 68.6 17026 6081 15.8 28.6 18.4 12.6 9:59
7.0 0.2 1.5 12.6 12.6 6.8 85.8 21.7 64.1 74.8 68.6 17020 6079 15.6 27.5 21.1 14.5 9:58
8.0 0.2 2.0 12.7 12.7 6.8 85.9 21.7 64.2 74.7 68.5 17014 6077 15.4 26.5 23.7 16.3 9:58
9.0 0.3 2.5 12.7 12.7 6.8 85.9 21.7 64.2 74.7 68.5 17011 6075 15.1 25.5 26.3 18.0 9:57
10.0 0.4 3.1 12.7 12.7 6.8 85.9 21.7 64.2 74.7 68.5 17009 6074 14.9 24.5 28.7 19.7 9:57
11.0 0.5 3.7 12.7 12.7 6.8 85.9 21.7 64.2 74.7 68.5 17011 6076 14.6 23.5 31.0 21.3 9:57
12.0 0.5 4.4 12.6 12.6 6.8 85.7 21.6 64.1 74.8 68.6 17027 6081 14.3 22.6 33.3 22.8 9:59
13.0 0.6 5.2 12.6 12.6 6.8 85.4 21.5 63.9 74.8 68.7 17051 6090 14.0 21.6 35.4 24.3 10:01
14.0 0.7 6.0 12.5 12.5 6.8 84.9 21.2 63.6 75.0 68.8 17094 6105 13.7 20.7 37.3 25.7 10:05
15.0 0.8 6.9 12.4 12.4 6.8 84.2 20.9 63.3 75.1 69.0 17150 6125 13.3 19.8 39.2 27.1 10:11
16.0 1.0 7.9 12.2 12.2 6.8 83.3 20.6 62.8 75.3 69.3 17218 6149 12.9 18.9 40.9 28.3 10:17
17.0 1.1 8.9 12.1 12.1 6.8 82.3 20.1 62.2 75.6 69.6 17299 6178 12.6 18.1 42.5 29.6 10:26
18.0 1.2 10.0 11.9 11.9 6.8 81.2 19.6 61.6 75.8 69.9 17391 6211 12.1 17.3 44.0 30.8 10:35
19.0 1.3 11.1 11.7 11.7 6.8 79.9 19.1 60.8 76.1 70.3 17495 6248 11.7 16.5 45.4 31.9 10:47
20.0 1.5 12.3 11.5 11.5 6.8 78.4 18.5 59.9 76.4 70.7 17610 6289 11.3 15.7 46.7 33.0 11:00
21.0 1.6 13.5 11.2 11.2 6.9 76.7 17.8 58.9 76.8 71.2 17745 6338 10.8 15.0 47.9 34.1 11:16
22.0 1.8 14.9 10.9 10.9 6.9 74.7 17.0 57.7 77.2 71.7 17898 6392 10.3 14.3 48.9 35.1 11:36
23.0 2.0 16.2 10.5 10.5 6.9 72.5 16.2 56.3 77.7 72.3 18069 6453 9.8 13.7 49.9 36.1 11:59
24.0 2.1 17.7 10.1 10.1 6.9 70.0 15.3 54.7 78.1 72.9 18255 6520 9.3 13.0 50.8 37.0 12:26
25.0 2.3 19.2 9.7 9.7 6.9 67.3 14.4 52.9 78.6 73.6 18455 6591 8.8 12.5 51.5 37.9 12:58
26.0 2.5 20.8 9.3 9.3 7.0 64.4 13.4 50.9 79.1 74.3 18669 6668 8.3 11.9 52.2 38.8 13:36
27.0 2.7 22.4 8.8 8.8 7.0 61.2 12.5 48.8 79.6 75.0 18897 6749 7.7 11.3 52.9 39.7 14:21
28.0 2.9 24.1 8.3 8.3 7.0 57.9 11.5 46.4 80.1 75.8 19136 6834 7.1 10.8 53.4 40.5 15:14
29.0 3.1 25.8 7.7 7.7 7.0 54.3 10.6 43.7 80.6 76.5 19387 6924 6.6 10.3 53.9 41.2 16:18
30.0 3.3 27.6 7.2 7.2 7.1 50.5 9.6 40.9 81.0 77.2 19648 7017 6.0 9.9 54.4 42.0 17:36
31.0 3.6 29.5 6.6 6.6 7.1 46.5 8.7 37.8 81.3 77.8 19919 7114 5.4 9.4 54.8 42.6 19:11
32.0 3.8 31.5 6.0 6.0 7.1 42.3 7.8 34.5 81.6 78.4 20199 7214 4.8 9.0 55.2 43.2 21:10
33.0 4.1 33.5 5.3 5.3 7.1 37.9 7.0 31.0 81.7 78.8 20489 7318 4.2 8.6 55.5 43.7 23:44

Note: Motor performance calculations take ambient temperature and heating effects into account.

Generated by MotoCalc 7.08, 3/4/2004 8:33 PM.
Old 03-04-2004, 11:38 PM
  #11  
Dopesick
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Default RE: Brushless Motor questions.

Any opinions? I would LIKE to use the same Motor, Battery, and Speed Controller in BOTH planes. YET, I am willing to try a different gearbox! Remember I'm looking for a motor and gearbox setup that will work with BOTH PLANES though.
Old 03-05-2004, 07:46 AM
  #12  
Wayne Miller
 
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Default RE: Brushless Motor questions.

Hi Dopesick,

I think it looks good.

One thing you may want to consider is buying one extra LiPo cell. It can be plugged in in series with the Kokam adapter to give 3 LiPo cells or 11.1 v. If your motor will take this, it wil be a huge increase in performance.

I have a Formosa and it flys well and I think you will enjoy it. It is not a starter plane and goes exactly where you point it. The contol surfaces recommended settings are very sensitive and as a result I have my elevator and aileron expo set to 75%. There is another thread talking about this and you may want to do a search on "Formosa" and read the different threads. It will fly like a Pattern plane, so experience will needed.

Fly4fun,

Wayne
Old 03-05-2004, 02:19 PM
  #13  
Dopesick
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Default RE: Brushless Motor questions.

Yeah I'm not exactly a beginner, although the Formosa will be my 1 Step up from an aileron beginer plane. I think I will do well.

With the Formosa I will probably go over to 11.1v li-Po pack for better performance.
Old 03-05-2004, 05:01 PM
  #14  
Wayne Miller
 
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Default RE: Brushless Motor questions.

Hi Dopesick,

I have the 2100's 3 cell for my Formosa, and I find it a little heavy, you may want to consider 1500's 3 cell, it will save a few ounces.

I was given some advise on another thread to "hog out" the battery compartment for the Formosa before I joined the fuselage. You may want to consider this.

Remember, the ailerons are very sensitive at 20 mm

Please let me know how you make out on your first flight.

Good luck!

Wayne Miller
Old 03-18-2004, 07:48 PM
  #15  
goplaneman
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Default RE: Brushless Motor questions.

I have the E-starter and the Formosa, love them both.
E-starter
Himax 2015 4100
cc 10amp esc
gws 350c gear box (5.33:1)
3s1p 2100 TP
Apc 10x6 elec prop.
16oz flying weight

Formosa
Himax 2015 4100
cc 10amp esc
gws 350D gear box (6.66:1)
3s1p 2100 TP
APC 11x4.75 Elec prop or 10x7
15.5oz flying weight

They both fly great, Make shure the bat compartment is set up befor putting the fus together.
Old 03-21-2004, 02:03 AM
  #16  
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Default RE: Brushless Motor questions.

I chose the Himax 2025-4200 for my formosa because it works so well on 2S. I'm running 1500 Kokam and 1900 TP. Motocalc says 43 mph and 24 oz thrust using an 11x8 orange on a GPS A drive. This set up pulls close to 20 amps at wot but I only use wot for verticles and an occasional low pass. Stunts beautifully and still climbs like mad at 1/2 throttle. Wot verticle is not unlimited but still solid up to about 200 feet. Duration is 10 min with the 1500 and 12+ with the 1900 using the throttle well but stunting all the time. Yesterday while flying with some friends who fly gas or nitro, I decided to tease them by flying round and round as slow as the plane would go and not fall out of the sky. My 1900 was fresh and I never used more than just enough power to climb and then back off from that. This way I could still loop and roll from a slight dive, do hammerheads, and fly inverted circles. The thing stayed in the air about 20 minutes and the guys, not being familier with electrics and the noise they don't make, didn't realize I was sandbagging them. They were sure impressed with all that duration.

I've got about 20 hours on this airframe with the Himax. This means about 60 charges on each of my lipos. They still work as well as ever dispite the heavy discharge rates I subject them to.

I will have to try 3S because I'd sure like to see the extra 10 oz and 10 mph I"d get. I'd be drawing such heavy amperage, I just might fry the cells. Backing off the prop diameter to a 9x8 would save some amperage, keep some of the thrust increase, and give the plane a great boost in speed.

This whole game is a balancing act that sure is fun. Motocalc is invaluable. 3S is something I'll try because I've got to have the performance experience. I'll have a hard time matching the 2S duration; there's the tradeoff.

Randy

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