electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

Hmmm? I currently fly a Piece-'O-Cake, an E-Starter, a 4-channel Slow Stick with 1* of dihedral, and a Mini Super Sportster EP on brushless or outrunner motors and li-po batteries. I kept buying airplanes that were supposed to have better performance only to be disappointed and almost give up on electrics completely. Fortunately, a fellow pilot convinced me to trash the cans and nicads and switch to brushless and outrunners with lipos. Now I thoroughly enjoy these planes, especially the Slow Stick and the Super Sportster, both of which will take off vertically out of my hand, or off a 4'x4' table. The Super Sportster is the only electric I have that can handle any wind at all. What bothers me is that I now have $400-500 in each of these models, and for that price I can buy/build most any .40-.60 size glow ARF.

I also fly a Sonic Low Wing .32, a Skyraider Mark II .40, a Something Extra .46, an Ultra Stick .60, and a variety of SPADS in .25 and .40 sizes. None of these planes has any problem in windy conditions.

Please explain how electric power is cheaper when I can set up a .40-.60 glow system (engine, mount, prop, spinner, fuel tank, filler, lines, filter, servo, pushrod) for $200-300 and an electric system (motor, mount, prop, spinner, ESC, batteries, connectors) of equal performance costs $550-1100. That's a minimum of $350 difference, which is 70 gallons of glow fuel, which is 900-1000 flights. Really, how many cycles do li-po batteries last? 200 is the figure I've seen mentioned. That means I'll need 4 sets of replacement batteries to make 1000 flights. At $145/set, that's $580, which is a heck of a lot more than the fuel, windshield washer fluid, and paper towels required to fly a glow engine 1000 flights.

Not even considering initial and operating costs, the only benefits I can see of electric are quiet, easier to get airborne, and less clean-up. These benefits are well worth the added costs in urban environments where flying space is at a premium, and noise is unacceptable. Sadly, all these benifits only apply to small models. Gas models are bigger, easier to see, handle wind better, and have no problems landing and taking off like real airplanes. Replacing glow power with electric in .40-.60 size planes requires $350+ more in initial investment, and the only advantage is less clean up.

I have several .40-.60 size kits and ARFs waiting to go together. I've been considering going electric on some of them. What am I missing here?

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

i dunno about 40+ sized planes but brushless is Alot better on smaller sizes. im sure it will be for big ones as well
its alot safer, if u crash glow.. explosions/fires can accure
its cheaper as well i say becuase if u look after your batteries they can last for very long
also no need to say its easier to set up. simple plug and play

electric motors are 80% efficent whilst glow/fuel ive heard are 20%

but i may be mistaken. these are just my thoughts
i only fly helis

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

Once you have your gear almost as you have in glo, your may find yourself flying and enjoying electric more that glow. I swore I would never go to electric anything simply because I have a hard time turning on a TV. Now, I seldom take one of my 12 glow and gassers off the ceiling. Not in the past 4-5 weeks. Friend let me fly his rcxplanes.com Illusion, and it was love at first flight. They fly like normal models, except better in my view. In the past I have not learned to 3d very well even though I have good stuff like tdhe Hyde Cap-X and Banshee. In the past 4-5 weeks I have become good enough to do harriers, elevators to soft landings, torque rolls until I want to stop, KE loops and now working on the waterfall. The plane inspires confidence and will get you out of anything except backing up. Wanted to have a backup as I am flying close to the ground and know poop will always happen. Bought the rcx planes Extra 330L at the recommendation of shop owner Bud Wilkinson on a package deal which included the Hacker 20-22L with 20 A controller, landing gear and everything needed except radio stuff I had sitting around. The Extra is better at hovers only, the Illusion a better all around airplane with the best rudder authority I have ever seen. If I want to fly, just go to the back or front yard, throw it up and have a ball. Down side, the area kids all want to fly it and don't understand whats going on. Do what ever you enjoy most, don't put a price tag on eigher unless you are willing to add up the costs of movies, dinners, flowers and all other related stuff you spend on the opposite sex. Now there is a expence you may reduce unless you have bought one like the majority of the rest of us. Good Luck, enjoy.

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

The electric advantages are well worth the price when the option is not flying at all [&o]. I guess :eek: I should let flying location determine what I fly, and figure a decent plane for schoolyard and gym (I'm a teacher) and a decent plane for the club field are going to cost about the same. I'll fly the electrics :) before and after work, and fly the glows on [8D] long summer evenings and weekends. Between electric and glow I can fly about 360 days a year. :D It's all good.

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

You are apparently flying very heavy eclectics to be spending that much money on them. It's true that the heavier planes take a lot more money to go electric. But, even that is slowly changing. Motors, esc's, batteries are all coming down in prices as the competition grows.

I have all the fun I want with 3 to 4 pound planes and smaller. My 3 pound planes have 55 inch wingspan, covered balsa and are about as big as I want to go and it is not that high priced to set these up. $60 battery, $60 motor, $55 dollar ESC will fly these. And, you can just grab them, fly and throw them back in the van and go! I love it. It's just a different sort of flying to me and not just a matter of one being all out better than another.

Have fun with what you want to fly. That is the name of the game.

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

Wonderful:

Think you are spot on in this direction. You can enjoy gym flying which is superior for electrics and the glows for the best of both worlds. Stay with the smaller electrics like the RCX planes Illusilon, gives good stable flight with all the right stuff for a very reasonable price tag. The 40 sized stuff gets to three figures real easy mostly for esc and batterys, the motors are about the same as glow for reasonable quality. I stay with AXI and Hacker for reliability.

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

I fly both electrics and gas. I find that I enjoy the ease of an electric that i can fly anytime (before work, after work, lunch time, etc) as long as it is not too windy. I get extremely frustrated when I have over $2,500 of electric planes that I can't fly because the wind picks up a little. When the wind is down I just walk across the street to a school and fly for an hour or two.

I love to fly gas but there is a price. You have to make sure your engine is tuned properly, there is much clean up after the flight, drive to the club field, it takes longer to setup/get in the air, and can take up more than half a day. This is more of my weekend type flying but I enjoy it as much if not more than the electrics it's just more work.

As far as price goes for each, if I had the money all of my planes would be electric. But I just can't see spending $400 for battery packs(for .40 - .60 size planes) that have no guarantee as to how long they will last. Also this only provides you with 1 flight. You need to spend another $400 to get a second flight. There is nothing worse than taking a plane up for a 10 - 20 minute flight and then waiting up to 2 hours for the battery to cool off and charge. I take excellent care of all of my equipment and some of my lipos last for months while I have had a few that don't last more than 3 months before they start dwindling. I don't think that there is any money savings going electric on the bigger planes, but if you can afford it I definitely think there are advantages. It's all about how much do you have to spend.

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

You all have come to the same conclusion as I have--for the same size and performance, glow is a lot cheaper, and the more thrust the power system generates, the more the difference in costs:

74.95 Great Planes Mini Super Sporster EP
78.95 Himax 2025 with gearbox
79.95 Phoenix 25
127.96 4, 720mAh li-pos
108.98 Hitec Electron/S55 flight pack
---------------------------
470.79

149.99 Great Planes Super Sortster 40 ARF
69.99 GMS .47
2.49 Master Airscrew 11x6 prop
2.19 Fuel Line
97.99 Hitec Flight Pack w/ 4 HS425BB
-------------------------------------------
322.65


The cost differences get more dramatic when you try to electrify the bigger SS.

149.99 Great Planes Super Sortster 40 ARF
149.95 Axi 4130/16
18.50 Radial Motor Mount
178.90 Jeti Controller
43.90 Ultimate BEC
639.98 4, 4200mAh lipos
9.60 16x8 APC e-prop
97.99 Hitec Flight Pack w/ 4 HS425BB
-------------------------------------------
1,288.81

As for tuning glow engines, takes about 10 seconds, maybe twice a year. Not really an issue. Clean up takes about 3 minutes, and we are standing around BSing anyway, so no time lost. It takes longer to swap batteries and hook up the depleted battery to the charger than to fuel a glow engine and get it running. However, there are flying opportunities where glow flight is not possible. Then, electric is the only way to go. I guess it boils down to glow when possible, electric when practical. It's all good.

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

If you had spent the same time working as you have on this question, you could have paid for either. Do what you enjoy, and like best and to heck with the money!

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

Doubtful, since I type 200+ words/minute and get the pitiful salary of a teacher for 70-80 hours a week of my time. Now hush, I'm trying to justify picking up an Ultrafly PC9 w/brushless on the way home from work this afternoon.

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

Now you are talking my kind of thinking! Seems there may be someone looking over your shoulder as I have. Thank god there is a person around that keeps things in reasonable check. Otherwise I would be playing with those $10,000 jets rather than $10.00 in foam, and living in a barn. Ok, I get just as much fun out of the foam (almost) My mother is a retired grade school teacher, I am a retired government engineer. Moms income is about 2 times mine with much better medical. I allso relate to your work week. I did not need any help for the last 15 years of employment, salary was at the top. I retire, they had to hire two persons to get the work done at a much higher salary. Such is life in government trenches for the working classes! Be sure to have your own retirement program as a last resort. I suspect that even the schools system retirement will go broke in the future. So much of our social welfare costs are now hidden, with tax paying ability nearly tapped out that they (Federal & State) wil be taxing retirement income highly. You now pay taxes on Social Security income! Over 78% of our County taxes go to welfare, with a bunch more that is hidden in the budget How the heck did I get off on that? Wish you the best! Don't you dare correct my paper! See ya

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

HAAHAAHAAHAAHAA!!!!:) rmenke, you are one delightfully crazy old coot! Actually, I live alone, in a 31-year old travel trailer parked in a warehouse. :D Last year I got to wondering why I was spending so much time cleaning house and mowing the yard with no garage space to play in, not to mention mortgage, taxes, insurance, and utilities, so I sold the house, replaced the camper interior and systems with house equivalents, desk and chair, and a bed. Slid that sucker in the back of a 2000ft^2 warehouse that left money left over from the capital gains on the house. I have room in the "garage" for my Chevy S10 V8, Shelby Cobra replica, tools, 4x8 foot work table with access all around, small screenprinting shop, and still enough room to fly micro electrics on a rainy day. See, it all comes back to RC. :D

I'm set for retirement. I have a moderately profitable business I can continue to operate as long as I can stand up. However, being a teacher in Texas, I still have to pay into Social Security (about $3600 last year) based on business earnings. That's in addition to the thousands I pay TRS. Worse, I'm prohibited by from ever drawing Social Security. [:@] Thank you, George Bush,l you nasty crook. You are correct, rmenke. The government will probably see to it that the teachers' retirement system goes bankrupt long before I retire.

I didn't buy the PC9, though. I bought a Pacific Aeromodel 1/4 scale Laser 200, a GMS 1.20, and flight pack.:D

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

Ther is one thing that you haven't factored into your cost for glow vs electric power. While it is true that batteries don't last forever, they will far out last the equivelant value of your favorite glow fuel. There is no need to do any more than dust the EP plane once in a while so your paper towel and spray cleaner expense and time are all but gone. Once setup with all the necessary equipment, the per flight cost is much lower for electric power even when comparing initial investment cost for both.
Don't get me wrong. I have several glow powered planes and a 50cc gas plane that I love to fly. The real difference for me is the frequency that I get to fly with EP vs. Fuel Power. 10 - 12 flights on my 50cc in 4 1/2 monts and 10 - 12 flights today on my EP stuff while staying close to home testing props. It is just too easy with EP.

Bud

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

Do you realize what you have done with that last note? Now you have Bud Wilkinson of rcx planes on your case also. Was just beginning to like you and then you tell me you have a shelby cobra and a built in flying field. The rest is poop. You did not even invite me to come live in the back yard in my own trailer. Tooo late now! Lived in Midland in 83 during the building boom and left a bunch to the carpet baggers. Loved the people, hated the weather. Raced MX at the Midland track until I broke my hip trying to get buy two guys I thought was in my class. Then they tell me they are pros. Oh well, going way to fast for a truly crazy old man. Robert Odonnald, the fireman who rescued baby Jessica from the well was a riding buddy. Wonderful young man. Strange how fame affects people. He screwed up his life and killed himself over his mistakes a few years later. He called me several times, just did not hear the "help" he was probably saying. Well enough BS. If you truly want a great electric, you can not do better or even come close to Bud and rcxplanes.com Illusion. Buy the package next payday for $164.00 which includes a hacker 20-22L and controller. You will thank me until your dying day.

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

rmenke,
Thanks so much for your support. The opinions you have expressed here about the RCXPLANES products and service are much appreciated and mirror those of virtually everyone who has taken a chance on RCXPLANES. Our repeat business is around 45% of our overall sales right now and those who have an RCXPLANES model won't fly any other foamy again.

I do want to correct our package price here since you have mentioned it. I was loosing my behind on the graphics so the price had to be raised. I think it is still a great value when compared to paint or markers. The Illusion package price was $174.99 and has been raised to $184.99. all of the other plane packages with their standard graphics were $164.99 and have been raised to $174.99. I sustained the loss for as long as I could just to get the packages out into peoples hands. I had the choice of either raising the price or dropping the vinyl program altogether. The vinyl just looks and works so well I decided to keep it going and raise its pricing. I wish it weren't necessary but there you have it.

Do you think this package is still a value for the additional $10.00? Let me know.

Bud

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

rmenke, work on your reading comprehension. [sm=spinnyeyes.gif] I don't have a Cobra. I have a Cobra replica from Factory Five Racing. About a year ago I bought the partially completed kit from a widow, real cheap. I couldn't pass it up. The old man bought the best of everything for the car, but some of the parts were not compatible with each other.

For instance, the massive Brembo brakes would not fit inside the NOS still-in-the-boxes original Cobra knockoff wheels. Not to mention that even if they would fit, the Brembo's massive stopping power would render the brake system very touchy with the dinky tires that fit those wheels. There was also a 515cid, 600+ crate engine and custom built World Class T5. Big block Cobras do not handle well, so the engine was not even appropriate for the car. No T5 is able to handle 600+hp for very long, either, no matter what is done to it. The engine, trans, wheels, and a few other unnecessary and incompatible parts were sold for more than I paid for the entire car.

I had a fuel injected 408 Windsor (ain't no substitute for cubic inches) of about 480hp and a Richmond Gear 6-speed from a Fox-body Mustang that was stolen and wrecked, and they needed a new home anyway. Then I began shopping swap meets and other legal sources of used parts. For instance, the wheels are the old style aluminum slots with bolt in valves, not even polished. No center caps, even. $200 the set, with lugs and valves. Also, my son does custom automotive paint, so the paint job was free. I've only had it on the track twice, and both times there were no Z06s and Vipers I couldn't pass with ease. Vettes couldn't keep up on the straights, Vipers handle like crap so any little mistake made in a Viper opened the inside line for me. It helps that most people running Vipers seem to have big wallets and little *****es, so they make lots of mistakes. The only really good drivers of Vipers get paid to do so. The better drives who buy their own cares get something that will handle, like a Porsche or Vette. I did have some trouble with a Diablo, but finally got him when he went a little wide and let me dive under. There was this one McClaren and a couple of Turbo Carreras I couldn't touch, but I didn't feel so bad because I only have about $10,500 in the Cobra, counting the engine and trans.

Think about it. I wanted a back-up to the 14-year old, 295,000 mile Honda I drive every day. It had to be dependable. For the money, I could opt for a new Huyndai or build a Cobra. If you're still thinking you're a gay commie.[sm=punching.gif]

Back to airplanes. I visited the RCXPlanes website. I must thank you for the advice, because it seems RCX has solved most of the problems I've had with foamies. There is some awesome thinking going on there about how to get the most for the least investment. Also, the business model of offering a complete airframe and matching power system at deeply discounted prices is quite rare. It seems most sellers pretend they don't know exactly what you need so, after you crash, you have to come back and spend another $169 to get the right stuff. My LHSs want $159 for most any brushless or outrunner motor and a quality speed control in this power output range. I have sitting on my desk right now a Himax HG20254266 gear motor with a $78.95 price tag and a matching Phoenix ESC marked $79.95. The way I figure, I can get an RCX plane, hardware, landing gear, and graphics for $15. That's one hell of a deal and exactly the kind of information I wanted when I started this thread. Kudos to RCX for not only developing cutting edge foamie technology, but also for bringing the price down quite a bit. Don't worry one bit about the price increase because of graphics. I have a vinyl cutter for doing stencils for screen printing, and I wouldn't even turn it on for a $10 job.

However, I'm not skilled enough for that indoor 3D stuff. I'm still keeping 3D practice at least 3 mistakes high.

Questions about the RCXPlanes. How do they fly compared to the Mini Super Sportster EP with Himax HG20254266, Phoenix ESC, and a 1800mAh 3S lipo pack?

Which model would be the best choice for practicing patterns on calm mornings or in the gym, with 3D planned for the future when (if?) my thumbs are able?

Are HS81MGs and a Micro 555 receiver sufficient? How about the Himax motor, Phoenix ESC, and 1800 mAh 3S li-po? I already have these components. Are there better choices in equipment?

How complete are the airframe kits? Do I need to plan the budget for pushrods, horns, hinges, etc., or is all that included?

Anything else I need to know before buying my first electric 3D plane?

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

What the heck? You guys work on weekends? Go fly!

I can't find and GWS "micro" receivers on line. I did find the GWS "Naro" receiver, part # R6NII/H/F. Is that the 6-channel you are referring to?

The HS81 servos are rated about twice the power of the HS55, weigh 2.5 times as much, and cost $7-8 more. I use them on my .25-size glow planes. Definately not necessary if the HS55s will do the job.

After adding up everything I'll need for the Yak 54 except adhesives it comes to $317.49, RC-XPlanes still is cheaper than lesser foamies from the LHS that don't have graphics or landing gear. That earns the Yak top spot on my buy list. I'll have to wait awhile [:o], though, because of family commitments over the holidays. New grandson and all that goes with.

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

Bud wrote: "If it isn't the best foamy you can fly for any price, I'll buy it back."

That's the best warranty in the business. I have to try one, and if it's too much for my dumb thumbs I'll hang it up until it isn't.

A couple weeks ago I found 3 of your competitors' foamies in the trash bin at the field. Somebody had a really bad day. I'm kind of ticked somebody beat me to the ESCs and motors. I scavenged 3 of the Futaba 153F 6-channel receivers, 12 S3108 micro precision servos, 3 Great Planes 1200mAh 3S1P, and all the wires to go with them. The receiver is 1/10 ounce more than the GWS, and the servos are the same weight and torque as the HS-55. Any problem with this flight pack?

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

You are really getting to me fella. "Work on your reading comprehension" Thanks for not getting on my spelling case. You don't have a "replica", you have the best of the best, I think. Makes my mouth watter, better than, dare I say it "sex". Must look through my old eyes. Background. 1949 National U control class B speed record shared with buddy Ron Morrison. 1954, West Coast open B Dragster record. 1960 NSCA 2nd overal west coast title, second to factory driver Ron Kinchlow. ( I was my own mechanic, drove to the track, removed muffler, and away we go. Married (sadly 1961). Back to racing, this time MX. 1985 World champion at Mannouth Mountain Old Timmers Association. 1985 2nd, National Vets at Adliento. (would have won but had flat) Understand that I am now 50 kicking the 30 year olds butts. 1988, getting to darn old for Motorcross, went to go-carts with son. 1989 West Coast Stock heavy Champion, on pole 1989, but got taken out at the first turn, no restart, got PO'd & went back to first love, airplanes. My fast lap times at Kerman still stand! Now, do you understand why that "Cobra" is not a replica in my eyes? Would I race it for you, you bet. Now about that trailer in the back yard-----.

Follow Bud Wilkinsons recomendations on the rcx plane. He just will not give you bad info. I don't have the Yak 54 (yet) and will have to save my pennies. Still have to build two more club racers for next season. Kids almost beat me this year, got to have 5-10 mph on them. Sorry I quoted you the old rcx price, Bud got on my butt for that. The graffics look very good, but I water base paint mine with a toutch-up gun. Look ok for me. Lets put it this way, I could fly either the Illusion or Extra 330L in your shop or gym with no problem. The Extra will almost hover itself if ballanced correctly, inside. Is a little tougher in the windy outside, but still flys well in the wind. If you are not a better pilot than I am right now, you soon will be.

A tip. I badly buse my rcx planes by doing power on snap rolls, loops and other crazy things at speed that would just tear others appart. I kept cracking my Illusion at the fuse wing front. Installed a additional top brace from the motor to back of the ailerons, both sides. Did same on my Extra 330L. No more cracks. They are not indistructable, but honestly darn tough, way ahead of the rest. The 1200mah pack will do until you discover the TP 1320 pack is the best overall combo of power to weight. I stick to HT 55s as they are reliable with no problems. About 40% of the GWS servos I have had came not working, they strip gears way to easy. Bud's group is always working on motor and battery combos for their customer benefit. I don't have the time or bucks to play in this area much. Hacker is now my preferred motor over AXI, but they both are great in my fiew. Hacker system is a little easier to find the sweet spot hovering, AXI is close with a 9 X 3.8 prop and Phoenix 25. Lie me know how your GP 1200 mah pack works out long term. Am tired of buying batteries that go poop in the night. See ya, must go out and fly, battery charger is beeping!

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

Another "Senior Moment". I did not respond to the supersportster question. You just have not got "it". Yea, have had one prior to the rcx. Sold it rather quickly. Just does not want to hover without lots of falling off, does not like to elevator, I love to elevator down to landing. Frankly, I will not waste my mony on looking for something to beat the rcx. Its not there!

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

Bud: Think the value is still there regrding graffics. At first blush, I thought the landing gear should come NC with the plane. Now realize that not everyone has to land on asphalt or in the dirt as we do locally. Have gear on both of mine for this reason. If we had a grass field, would not use them. A little dirt in these motors is tough on them! I don't see any difference in the plans flying ability with or without landing gear!
Regard; Numb thumb

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

First I have no experience with the parts you listed. I don't see any problem with the servo choice at the specs you have listed. I stick with the GWS and HS55s because I have had great luck with them and the leads are long enough to place the servos as I have laid out in my instructions with no extensions. The futaba Rx you list will probably be fine too. if you want to save some weight off the reciever you can remove it's plastic case and get close to the same weight as the GWS. I don't know about its pin arangment though.

Be carefull with battery choice though. This is the one place not to economize at all. Again I have no experience with the GP 1200 mAh 3s1p but the Thunder Power Prolite 1320 has incredible discharge C rating and is the strongest energy release battery I have used to date. The battery can make or break the performance of a foamy in a heartbeat by either being heavy or by having restricted energy release. Once any LiPo becomes dammaged by over amp draw or charge, I have had no success in reviving them.

I have the X20 speed controlers but ran out of the A20-22Ls this weekend. Mike at Mint Hill Hobby is the RCXPLANES East coast distributor and may have the whole package for you. 1-704-846-2800. Give him a call if you are ready.

Bud

RE: electric $$$ vs. glow $$$
 

rmenke,
I did not mean to get on you about the price you listed for my combos. After all that is what it was when you got your Extra. Rather I just wanted to make sure people wern't surprised when they do visit my site.

The whole grass vs. pavement and vinyl vs. paint thing is why I made them an option. Even though it causes some confusion, I would rather keep the cost for the base airframe kit down than have half the folks put the landing gear kit and/or graphics kit on a shelf while paying for them in the kit. This way I can get the planes into peoples hands at a reasonably competitive price. As you know, once you get one, you won't want to fly the others regardless of the pretty pictures on the box or the ad campaigns in the mags. It is hard enough for me to compete with the big manufacturers cost wise so I am dedicated to honesty, quality and service above all.

Bud