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The great engine debate.

Old 03-08-2012, 06:57 PM
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1QwkSport2.5r
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Default The great engine debate.

weLl, since it happens often enough a few guys get (off topic) into hEated debaTes/argumentS pertaining to (for the sake of arguMent) rtr chinese/tAiwanese engines vs. just about any high end Italian (or any other european designed) race engine and the liKE.

This tHread Is being created becauSe of a few reasons.. one, to finAlly have a place to have civil debate on which engine is Better, pros and cons, etc. two, to keep other users' threads clear of the off-topIc banterinG.

the idea is Just to keep it coOl. no accusations, harsh insults, or any other tough guy talK. lEts keep it cool and have an intelligent conversation. you might learn something.
Old 03-08-2012, 11:49 PM
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Default RE: The great engine debate.

Italian engines are the best engines.
Old 03-09-2012, 01:07 AM
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HerrSavage
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Default RE: The great engine debate.

Why?
Old 03-09-2012, 02:06 AM
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Altered1
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Default RE: The great engine debate.

I'll wade into this one....  Enya make the best engines..... why?  because I have one (.60X), and not matter how much trouble she gives me, I still love the noise she makes at WOT

No, seriously, she's a powerhouse, with the airbleed carb easy to start, and even on the stock exhaust, sounds cool


Old 03-09-2012, 07:59 AM
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cummins driver
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Default RE: The great engine debate.

Well, I think Italian engines sound a little crisper in their response and idling, but I havent had much problem with my RTR engines yet so I guess thats why I havent switched.

Here is a video of one of our r/c pulls:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9Ew985CrSo[/youtube]

The LST2 with yellow wheels has a Novarossi .28
My truck is the Red Monster GT with white wheels and the stock Thunder Tiger built Associated .28 engine
My Wifes is the blue LST2 with white wheels and the stock Mach 427
My Father in law's is the black/white/yellow LST1 with white wheels and a thunder tiger built Associated .28 engine
My mother in law's truck is the yellow/white/blue LST2 with white wheels and a Teal head Mach 427

He beat us some and we beat him some through out the season. I personally built and set up Mine, my wifes, and mother and father in law's trucks. At the end of the season me and the Nova .28 truck were tied in points. I didnt get my tire selection figured out until late in the year, but regardless my thunder tiger .28 had no issues hanging with the Nova all season.

Im not really posting this to prove much of anything, but it is a good display of how a RTR taiwanese engine can perform with a good tune and truck setup... I almost bought a picco a couple times when i found good deals on them, but I never did. Im very happy with how my thunder tiger engine performs. I have a collari .30 italian built engine in my wife's LST2 now. It runs and tunes pretty nicely, but im not sure it has much more get up than the 427 really...

My vote is to run what you enjoy and be happy with it....
Old 03-09-2012, 09:44 AM
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HerrSavage
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Default RE: The great engine debate.

Check out Maifield - IMO the fastest pro truggy and probably even buggy driver there is - shredding it up with his non-Italian, Asian engine...:

http://vimeo.com/37356265

I am in most ways VERY un-PC. But honestly, the whole "Italian engines are better than Asian engines" is down to nothing more than blind racism. I'm really not a PC tell-people-what-to-think kind of person. But there is no basis in it. LRP actually switched from Picco to OS for their race engines. And as you can see above, Maifield is hauling axx with his Asian engine..

BTW, pretty much ALL kits are produced in Asia.. Do people have these kinds of stupid discussions about electronic motors and components?...

Some of the Taiwanese producers dug a hole for themselves a few years ago with bad carbs and some quality issues for ex. But that was then, and this is now. And now Alpha and Go and co.. are simply producing good quality, excellent value-for-money engines. The curve of improvement in quality and performance with Taiwanese engines in the last few years has been marked.
Old 03-09-2012, 10:27 AM
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Default RE: The great engine debate.

I know of dozens of sponsored Go, Alpha, Argus drivers who run either Novarossi or OS carbs on their engines, and I know not one single OS or Nova user ever using a carb off a Go,Argus or Alpha ! there is a reason for this ! Nova and OS make the easiest to tune engines on the market.....OS and Nova carbs are much better then those used on the Taiwanese, hence Nova and OS are much easier and more consistent tuning...

Performance these days they are pretty much equal.... the new Taiwanese are quite fast.....As are the Italians and Japanese

Production consistency....this is what would be consistency engine to engine, from O-ring tightness, to the amount of pinch in the piston sleeve, timing specs on the crank and sleeve depth in the block...Here is where companies like OS and Novarossi leave the Taiwanese in the dust.....Buy 100 Nova's and buy 100 Taiwanese and start comparing the piston/sleeve fitments between the brands,,,, The Nova's are hand fitted and every one is perfect, the Taiwanese are all over the map, some soo loose they hardly seal, others soo tight they require an act of god to get started...... Carbs....some Taiwanese carbs are spot on, others the machining is soo out the O-rings cant seal and the needles will move on their own, even changing to new o-rings doesn't help as the machining is not proper for the o-rings that were spec'd for the engine.......By contrast all Nova's are tight on the needles, the machining tolerances engine to engine is spot on.Never need to put in new o-rings, never have to fuss.... Now I am not going to say that there isn't issues with Italian and Japanese engines, as there is from time to time manufacturing defects, But i can say that the frequency of these manufacturing defects is far far less then that of the Taiwanese engines....... Its night and day actually........ ... Another area I can comment on is material quality, the Italians and Japanese are definitely made with higher grade metals....especially the crankshafts and bearings, .................. Another area I can comment on is durability, the Italian and Japanese are more durable, especially so when you start pushing the engines into the higher RPM ranges...... I cannot safely modify a Go engine to the same standard I modify my Nova's and Werks as the Go connecting rod does not hold up too well.... The Nova's can go all season bouncing off the redline, the Go will grenade the rod usually within a couple of weekends...So I have to modify the Taiwanese to make sure I do not put too much top end into them, as the internals cannot handle it safely.... The only Taiwanese that I have seen handle extreme RPM is the JL engine, which had plenty of European development influence......... But the other Taiwanese brands I have to be careful with....... In the end as a modifying business we have had far less comebacks and customer tuning issues dealing with the brands like OS and Novarossi as opposed to dealing with the Taiwanese brands, far fewer factory defects and much more consistent build quality engine to engine.........

Anyways my take is that there are plenty of good running cheap engines, but just the same there are plenty of poor running cheap engines...the more expensive engines are usually less hassle, easier to tune and worth the extra expense.....I mean you can buy a genuine Novarossi P5XLT for $199.00 , the same price as the new Go GX5HO that is a nearly 100% copy of the P5, you tell me, what would you rather have, the Ferrari, or the kit car made to look like the Ferrari, these days they cost the same money...
Old 03-09-2012, 10:32 AM
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Default RE: The great engine debate.

http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_...ipe-Turbo-Plug

WITH pipe..
Old 03-09-2012, 10:42 AM
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Dale Gribble
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Default RE: The great engine debate.

My guess is that 97% of people that enter this debate do not have the finite knowledge necessary to tell the difference between engines manufacturing country of origin.

Take my buddy for example. He is big into very high end home audio. He enjoys the destinct response of his high end speakers across the audio spectrum. Frankly, I literally can't tell the difference between $15,000 speakers and $150 speakers. They both sound fine to me.

As goes the high end speakers goes the Italian v. Asian engine origin. I have run Italian and Asian engines and I couldn't tell you what one did better than the other even though I have been running nitro for 10+ years. Very few would understand and appreciate the subtleties between the two so I predict this debate will be overwhelmed by the 97%.
Old 03-09-2012, 11:55 AM
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1QwkSport2.5r
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Default RE: The great engine debate.

I havent much experience with any top-of-the-line engines in my cars, so I cant comment on them. I've ran RTR sport engines in my cars/trucks for a long time and havent had any real problems to speak of. I would like to get my hands on a more expensive engine so I can compare, but its not a lifetime goal to do this. Racing is on the other side of the globe from what I like to do, so I'm not super eager to drop $300 on a fancy engine just yet. Until one of my engines crap out, I'll keep running them. I've wanted a Picco for a long time but until I need an engine, thats a back-burner want.

Some high end manufacturers have had their issues. For the last 3-4 years I've read on several forums about the problems some guys have had with OS' nickel plating peeling off their liners. Yet numerous people put OS on this pedestal thats a mile high. OS' quality control is quite good, but not all the time. I know Picco has had problems with their carbs leaking.

Lets face it, there are a handful of engine manufacturers that take the time to build an engine right and you pay for that. But even they aren't perfect. As far as I'm concerned, Run what you like but don't knock something until you've tried it.

Old 03-09-2012, 11:40 PM
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Default RE: The great engine debate.

olor=#FF0000]Here is where you are mistaken..I think many in this conversation may think they wouldn't notice a difference, but that is only because they lack the experience to really know any differently......I actually think a larger majority of nitro enthusiasts would know the difference, as there is a huge number of guys who do race, I think there is probably more racers then bashers..... I can't think the last time I ever heard of there ever being 500 bashers in one place...yet I know many races that hit those numbers, heck I even had 150 at my track in the middle of nowhere...... I know racers buy more fuel, more engines, more tires, and in general probably make up a larger portion of RC economy then the bashers do......Even locally here there are more racers then bashers.... Now of course there are the one time weekend warriors, guys who buy a T-Maxx and run it a few weekends here and there, but never really get into the hobby beyond buying a kit and few odd parts......There are probably thousands of T-Maxx's out there that have not seen more then a couple gallons of use, and have done nothing but sit in the shed since..... By contrast the racers are running their cars religiously 2-3 times per week, traveling all over attending race events.....Actually there many more racers then I would ever have realized...! Anyways in the end I believe the racers are not the minority that the few here seem to think...I actually think the guys here are the minority of the hobby, not the other way around...... The racing forums are many times more active then the bashing forums if that means anything... I know I sell 10 to 1 fuel and engines to racers as opposed to bashers....and I know most manufacturers put all their resources into developing race machines and products, not bash machines and products, if the bash market was soo lucrative they would be concentrating more on that............. [/color]

Anyways in the end the layer cake of RC is very much similar to the Layer cake of todays popular racing games on the X-Box and the Playstations ..... some people are happy to play around causally on level one....Others want the thrill of the full out race cars...The driving experience between a entry level nitro and a full on racer is pretty much identical to the difference between driving a level one car and driving a full on level 10 race car in the games, the principles are the same.......I myself would think a person would have to be pretty numb to not notice the difference., as it is quite apparent once you drive them... !
Old 03-10-2012, 12:58 AM
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Default RE: The great engine debate.

why?[link=http://www.hobbyhot.com] [&o] [/link]
Old 03-10-2012, 07:11 AM
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Default RE: The great engine debate.

rabble rabble rabble rabble novarossi rabble rabble oil content rabble rabble rabble break in rabble nitro content
Old 03-10-2012, 09:45 AM
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Default RE: The great engine debate.

Id be pretty surprised if there are more racers than bashers. Just because bashers dont all get together at one place like racers do doesent mean there arent a bunch of different groups of bashers out running the heck out of their r/c's at any given time. I dont run across nearly as many racing video's on youtube as I do bashing video's. And i dont meet nearly as many people into racing as i do bashing either.

Id probably have been into some entry level racing long ago, except the closest decent track is probably 2 hours away, and im not driving that far. Plus im not so sure the thrill of rc racing is worth the money a lot of guys put into it. I guess my point is that even though I enjoy r/c a lot, it has never given me that buttefly in the stomach, shaky hands feeling that racing a real vehicle has...
Old 03-10-2012, 10:18 AM
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Default RE: The great engine debate.


ORIGINAL: cummins driver

Id be pretty surprised if there are more racers than bashers. Just because bashers dont all get together at one place like racers do doesent mean there arent a bunch of different groups of bashers out running the heck out of their r/c's at any given time. I dont run across nearly as many racing video's on youtube as I do bashing video's. And i dont meet nearly as many people into racing as i do bashing either.

Id probably have been into some entry level racing long ago, except the closest decent track is probably 2 hours away, and im not driving that far. Plus im not so sure the thrill of rc racing is worth the money a lot of guys put into it. I guess my point is that even though I enjoy r/c a lot, it has never given me that buttefly in the stomach, shaky hands feeling that racing a real vehicle has...

There is a pile of racers out there dude.... I think more then bashers..... there are thousands of RC race videos online, each event showing dozens or hundreds in attendance....... When I go bashing here i rarely run across another nitro enthusiast..... for most racing is just an excuse to hang out with like minded people who enjoy the hobby..... many of the guys are there just to hang with others who do the same thing....On the East coast some weekend club races draw 300 racers......Even here in the middle of Canada we drew in 150 racers at our track


here is a little pic from our track

Old 03-10-2012, 10:31 AM
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Default RE: The great engine debate.


ORIGINAL: proanti1

rabble rabble rabble rabble novarossi rabble rabble oil content rabble rabble rabble break in rabble nitro content
Old 03-10-2012, 10:39 AM
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HerrSavage
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Default RE: The great engine debate.

Racing is tremendously uptight. Yes it is more "in" at the moment than bashing probably.. But %70 of the forum activity to do with racing is about drilling shock pistons, changing a mm here or there of whatever, or whatever other tedious minutiae it is people are obsessing about..

Not only that, it is also tremendously expensive for what it is. A full on race package with everything you need costs far more than what you need to bash, so the investment itself makes things more uptight as well. If you've invested two grand in your race gear, you're going to feel pressured even more to go spend more (time and money..) going to all the races.. Often hours away.. Hotels, mobile homes, etc. Nothing against guys who choose to package their participation in the hobby in that way. But it's not al there is to the hobby.

The bashing heyday with the videos from slapmafro, redneckbashers, beaverstick, socal, and co.. was far cooler than racing could ever be afaic..
Old 03-10-2012, 10:48 AM
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Default RE: The great engine debate.


ORIGINAL: HerrSavage

Racing is tremendously uptight. Yes it is more ''in'' at the moment than bashing probably.. But %70 of the forum activity to do with racing is about drilling shock pistons, changing a mm here or there of whatever, or whatever other tedious minutiae it is people are obsessing about..

Not only that, it is also tremendously expensive for what it is. A full on race package with everything you need costs far more than what you need to bash, so the investment itself makes things more uptight as well. If you've invested two grand in your race gear, you're going to feel pressured even more to go spend more (time and money..) going to all the races.. Often hours away.. Hotels, mobile homes, etc. Nothing against guys who choose to package their participation in the hobby in that way. But it's not al there is to the hobby.

The bashing heyday with the videos from slapmafro, redneckbashers, beaverstick, socal, and co.. was far cooler than racing could ever be afaic..

Sounds like Germany sucks for running nitro dude..... seriously !!! the way you make it sound its like it is being run by a bunch of Nazi's... ( no ethnic slur intended either )...But in all your posts you always saying how uptight and rigid racing is over there......Honestly if it was that way over here I would want no part of it either.....that just sounds like it sucks...ALl internet arguing aside that sounds like a really crappy scene over there....Hopefully one day if you ever move back stateside you can attend one of the bigger races here, as it is a totally different scene.... Guys are hanging out, cooking food, helping each other and just enjoying hanging out with other like minded people......When the cars are on the track the guys can get wound up from time to time, but adrenaline does that to people.... But once the cars are off the track people are really friendly............Racing up here is as much a social event as it is a race event...... We are anything but stuck up snobs......And the scene here is nothing like the scene your describing over there in Germany....I wouldn't want to race either if that's what I had to deal with......

Old 03-10-2012, 11:24 AM
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Default RE: The great engine debate.

not really, 99% of racing i see is all about money and competition- and i dont mean a "wow that was a good race i gave you a good run but lost anyway see you next week" but a "how could you possibly beat me with that cheap setup you must be cheating"

and honestly id like to see more nitro. the electric scene is just 17.5 motors with boost cranked all the way up, and mirroring some national racers setup. thats fun? whatever happened to figuring it out yourself?

if there was a track that had fifteen minute mains and was dirt id go out right now and get a new rig into it.
Old 03-10-2012, 11:25 AM
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Default RE: The great engine debate.


ORIGINAL: supertib
But once the cars are off the track people are really friendly............
Unless they see that you are running a truggy with a monster truck body
Old 03-10-2012, 11:57 AM
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Default RE: The great engine debate.


ORIGINAL: cummins driver


ORIGINAL: supertib
But once the cars are off the track people are really friendly............
Unless they see that you are running a truggy with a monster truck body
dude..seriously ? . I was just teasin on a ya bit man .... LOL.... wipe the snot off your nose and quite being so sensitive ! I know you had a buggered body post and couldn't run the truggy body.... I was just laughing as some of those guys were more concerned with how the machine needed to look cool first and foremost, and none seemed concerned one bit with how it actually performed ! So I was just teasin ya about holding a fashion show ! I am surprised you didn''t pick up that I was joking with you ! next time I will make it even more apparent for you !

Myself I could care less how a machine looks, how it performs is all that matters..... Now of course when I was 18 and picking up chicks it was very important to be driving a pimp looking ride.... But when it comes to my offroad toys its all about the driving experience, how it looks is the least of my concerns ! tho having it look nice is a bonus, i wont put much time into it....
Old 03-10-2012, 01:33 PM
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Default RE: The great engine debate.

Old 03-10-2012, 01:36 PM
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Default RE: The great engine debate.

Racing isn't and shouldn't be uptight. Check it out on LiveRC. Live action at the 2012 Psycho Nitro Blast. All day today and tomorrow.


http://liverc.rccars.com/live/broadcast/<iframe scrolling="no" name="stframe" width="0" frameborder="0" src="http://seg.sharethis.com/getSegment.php?purl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rcuniverse.co m%2Fforum%2Fjs%2Ffckeditor%2Feditor%2Ffckeditor.ht ml%3FInstanceName%3Dbody%26Toolbar%3DDefault&jsref =&rnd=1331415261471" height="0" id="stSegmentFrame" style="body: transparent"></iframe>
Old 03-10-2012, 03:20 PM
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Default RE: The great engine debate.

If it runs great and gives me no problems, then I do not care what country it came from, Italian, Asian, even USA.
Old 03-10-2012, 04:55 PM
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Default RE: The great engine debate.

I feel that Dynamite has the best running, easy tunning and great power if tuned right, I will have savage duels with Dynamite BIG REDS!!! 427, they rock!! Them engine to me just rock and take a beating !!!! check the dual reds in action!!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fga04...70AUAAAAAAACAA

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