46u

My Feedback: (3)

I agree with what a lot of you airplane guys say but you have to keep in mind that car and truck engines turn up to 3 or so times the RPM that airplane engines do. Correct me if I am wrong. Yes no matter what the instructions that come with my motors say I heat cycle them on break in and agree this is the best way. As far as checking temperature I feel this is a good idea as tuning by ear is OK but to cold or to hot is departmental to the well being of the engine. So checking Temperature does not hurt.

Jyrki

46u:
Yes. In a car (I dont know cars better) I can see there is not that great cooling as planes do actually now when I mentioned I wonder why there is no such a fan directed over the cylinder head as helis do!?

The load (plane propellor) also resist the rpm devoloping high. So you must stop the engine when overheated ---> naturally you have the heat cycle. The very rich fuel mix is also the key for cooling, but that expensive fuel is not very economical as a coolant at long term use.

As I said, hot but reasonable.

J

dublinrr

PLEASE HELP A TOTAL NEWBIE(S)
Hi Guys,
My first post!
I have bought 3 of these http://www.rseetoys.com/winnerpro.htm.
I ran 5 tanks of fuel in it, on the last tank i was adjusting the idle as I thought the car was idling very high.
The engine stopped as I was doing it, and now, the pull start wont work, it appears to be stuck.
PLEASE HELP, my heart is broke with this, and it happened to my friend who was breaking in his engine at the same time!!!!
Thanks
-Brian
[email protected]

[email protected]

will the engine turn over with the fly wheel? If so remove the pullstart and repair.

QuailHunterUSA

WOW! Just read the whole thing this late evening man my eyes hurt! I look stoned! Well alot of usefull info I learned tonight! I am about to buy the SAVAGE 2.5 Is this a good choice or is the traxxis or another one in the 500$$$ range a good one... Ps: I need a kit with all the fixins the glow dealie and fuel + wrench every thing battery charger controler everything! ohh yah and ive never bought or driven one befor so any help would be great! Thanks

J_D

hmm, lots of good info, i guess it really shows that there is no "one-way" to break in an engine.

duckbutter

I just got a P5 and I'm trying to break in the motor I'm new to nitro motors. I've got it to start a couple of times but today it wont start it was just spitting fuel out of the exhaust pipe. I'm going to break it in the heat cycle way but the guys at the hobby shop told me to let it idle a couple of tanks then putt it around a few tanks then start leaning it out. why wont it start? and how do i lean it out when should i start leaning it out. every things at the factory settings. I'm so confused can anyone help me please!!

Fuelman

My Feedback: (6)

It is way too rich if it is just spitting out fuel from the exhaust.

46u

My Feedback: (3)

If you are still idling at least a tank through during break-in, you're using the old-school accepted method (still works well for some!) but it's not the method that the top engine guys (Ron Paris, Dennis Richey, Rody Roem, Michael Salven are just a few I've spoken personally with about this) recommend anymore.
From the very 1st time you start your engine, plop the car on the ground & begin running it in a parking lot in 2-3 minute intervals, tuned only *slightly rich* getting the temps up in the 200F range on a normal day. Every 2-3 minutes, shut the engine down & let it cool completely with the piston at BDC, and then fire it back up; continue this cycle until you've run 15 min or so, and then bump up to 3-4 minute intervals. Vary the RPM and don't be afraid to get the temps in the 200's. What you want is heat cycling of the components without the incredible stress that comes with breaking an engine in when it's overly rich & cold. After cycling the engine in this manner for about 20-25 total minutes, it'll be ready for the track and race tuning. I realize this method goes against the old-school "idle on the box" routine, but you'll be amazed once you've completed this break-in routine, your OS will still have amazing pinch w/out sticking at the top AND your OS's compression will last far longer than it will with the "old school" method.
You say you run the engine at "factory settings" for the first FIVE tanks? That alone causes lots of stress, as the factory OS settings are very rich on every OS I've ever owned or tuned. The piston & sleeve haven't expanded to operating temps, and every time the engine turns over, the piston slams into the pinch zone at TDC. The not-so-surprising result can be a cracked con-rod at the crank pin--that's where the majority of the stresses occur as the engine turns over. I've only heard of about 6-8 OS engines breaking con-rods, and they're ALWAYS during the first gallon...and almost every time it's because the guys have performed the break-in procedure you described. Doesn't seem like a mystery as to why it's happening. Drawing out the break-in routine really stresses the engine & actually wears away compression along the way. This method I've outlined will feel weird at every step, but after you try it once, you'll notice a big difference in your engine's performance & lifespan.
Hope this helps; give this break-in method a shot--you have nothing to gain except longer life & more power

duckbutter

THANKS FOR THE INFO ILL TRY IT.

duckbutter

my p5 is starting up great still tuning it. Is it normal to have to give a some gas when starting it on the starter box. my motor dose bogges out when it sits idling for a few seconds. I have to stay on the throttle a few times before it stays on. just want to know if thats normal.

MassiveMods

if your top end is tuned then you may need to lean the bottom a little .. pinch the fuel line at the carb to block fuel flow. it should take 5 seconds to die.. if it takes longer then try leaning..

The fuel flow and needle relationship is simple and when you understand it you can tune better.. The HSN governs the amount of fule allowed through pressure to enter the carb, the LSN governs the amount allowed to spray into the throat of the carb at idle and all the way up to half throttle usually..
Now if the engine is flooding and stalling then what is happeing is called "Load up" ie: the engine loads up with fuel faster than it can burn it off.. So if you lean the LSN you can reduce the loading effect.. Just make sure to tune when engine is at oprating temp.. Most engines will lean themselves automatically as they get hotter or lower in fuel..

Pconn5

46u: In that break-in method is the 25 min. including the cooling times between intervals or just running time? Also how long does the cooling take and how long should you wait before turning the engine back on? thanks for the great info here.

Fuelman

My Feedback: (6)

I believe that 46U is referring to run time.
The important thing to remember is to break them in, in a clean two stroke that is not too rich and not too lean, just clean. If the temp is getting to 250, then so be it, if the temp is only 220 then fine, as long as you are running it around like it has been prevoiusly mentioned and not sitting idling.
Read what shoestring and I have written regarding engine break in, 46U is pretty close to the mark as well.

5150Cat

I have to agree with Fuelman and 46u. I just got a O.S. V-Spec for my Kyosho Kanai and did the break in proceedure just like was mentioned. Always on the ground, without a body for extra cooling and just running around. First couple of tanks were pretty easy but by the third tank WOT was reached in short spurts just to get it thru the entire range of the throttle. The engine now flies! It starts up very easily, idles awesome and has been winning some races as well.

I've just done the same thing with breaking in my Sirio engine on my Nuova Faor nitro bike and it seems to get more wheelie power with each run I do!

I personally am under the impression that an engine should be broken in how it's going to be run. Idle for 3 tanks does nothing. I break all my engines in this way including my non-r/c engines and have had great success with all of them!

Just my .02 and what's been working for me. Take from it what you want.
5150

jas666

hi ppl, I've just finished breaking in a .15 os.I had problems to start with but after a lot of reading and time on the net,I found that it took a lot more than 6 tanks running it slightly rich,but now im very glad that i read this type of thing as it gives you alot to work with.Now my nitro car runs very reliable and quick.The tunning has also become much easyier as well as starting.

MassiveMods

I completely agree with FUELMAN !

And its undertsandable that people dont believe his view.. its not the norm or what is written.. I guess manufaturers would be losing a lot of money if everybody ran their engine in correctly.. That is why they say Rich and on the Bench ! best way to make an engine last 3 litres so by then you think well its time to buy another engine.. And im sure we could count on 1 hand ow many people in LHS's know anythign about what they are selling..

But i do think temp guns should be used ! I cant stress this enough !!! Get a temp gun and take the temps of all your car parts just after a hard run, make sure you get the temps of the bearings, diff, rear wing, front servo then throttle servo, top of head, out of pipe temp, wheels nuts and your right toe.. Take all this information and compile it into a pie graph with the decerning pieces dicected from low to high temps. Then multiply the amount of cells by the total coefficient rating of your left nostril, divide this by the amount of times you stand temping your engine instead of just using it, minus the enjoyment of just bashing the begeesus out of your engine or vehicle and you will have .... Nothing... this is the total value of temp guns very very important tool ..

Good Luch and may the force be with you ! ( darth vader used a temp gun to measure the heat eminating from his helmet )

crusher666

I Just brought a Kyosho Giga Crusher Dual Force and i am only new to the hobbie. I have just read over everything and I will be using the new method! But I also have a problem just like DuckButter. I have only just started one engine, and run one tank just Idling. It was spitting out a fuel out the back. I will lean it off after reading all of the above, but for some reason it is taking a lot of throttle to even move the car a small amount?? Not sure why this is?? I then tried to start the second engine, but I have not been able to start it. (very fustrated and blisters). I then went back to the first engine to start it up again, and I am unable to start it either?? I have had to leave it overnight, will that have caused me any damage with the fuel in the engine? Will one night hurt it? I will be attempting to start it again tomorrow, but my real worry is that the car hardly moves? It was a kit, but i am sure that everything is set up correctly!
Can anyone help?
(This is a very old thread! Not sure if anyone will still be around to help??)

Fuelman

My Feedback: (6)

Crusher,
Do not get too worried that you destroyed anything yet, its very doubtfull after sitting one night with fuel in it. A probable reason that your truck may not move much is that the engine is so rich that it will not spool up enough to engage the clutch, as evidenced by the fuel out the tailpipe you descrive.
To get your trucks started, check the glow plug to see if it still glows and that the little element is not mangled looking compared to a new one. Then set the low speed needle and high speed needle to what the factory settings state in the instructions. (They are not always correct straight from the box, only half the engines I see new from the box do not have the needles set to where they recommend) Then from the factory settings, lean (turn clockwise) the low speed needle a little less than 1/4 turn, and do the same with the high speed needle. All car engine factory settings are way too rich, some so rich that it is extremely difficult to start.

Once you get it started, bring it up to a high throttle position with the tires off the ground and lean out the high speed needle untill it stops stumbling and burbling, just enough so it is crisp and clean running, no leaner at the moment. Toss it on the ground and run it around. You may have to adjust the low speed needle and throttle stop so it runs at an idle, chances are that a little more leaning may have to be done on the low speed needle.

crusher666

Thank's Fuelman. I will give it a try. I gave it another go in the morning, and I was able to start both of the engines (one at a time). However I did not change any of the settings as i am not sure what is what. On my manual it has a Needle valve, a Throttle valve adjustment screw, and an Air/Fuel mixture adjustment screw!
I am not sure what is the high and low speed needle?? Can you help?
The manual says that i should have the Needle valve 3 turns unscrewed from closed. that's it! It does mention the the Air/Fuel mixture adjustment screw should be tighten until the groove disappears (and there is a diagram as what to look for) However looking at it there is no groove.(so it must be right already?) What needle leans the fuel off?

I appreciate your help. Don't know much about engines. But I am very willing and keen to learn. I wana persue this hobbie. It looks so much fun. And my machine looks mean!
Thank you.
Crusher

Fuelman

My Feedback: (6)

Crusher,
Try to get ahold of Massive Mods. he's in Australia and would better be able to help you out via email or phone. Go to www.massivemods.com and find him there. Tell him I sent you.
It is harder for me to give you a verbal picture than it would be for him.

guver

My Feedback: (325)

Hmm, this is something I wondered.

What happens to the size and shape of the piston and cylinder after "breakin" as opposed to when brand new? sorry if dumb question.

bozla

It's not that complicated from a basic metallurgical standpoint.

When engines are new, the metal is soft and fresh (ductile). When it gets worn in the metal hardens up, but if you don't wear it in carefully, either the engine gets over worn too quickly (i.e thrashing the engine on a stand) or simply isn't worn in hard enough to properly break it in (idling for a long time without pushing the engine). Heat cycling generally helps this process (but it does depend on what exact alloy is being used, but is generally the way with aluminium alloys), but its more important to stress the engine to make sure that the surfaces of the sleeve and cylinder are toughned up.

Imagine what happens when you bend the ringpull of a can, you bend it one way and its soft, then keep bending it. As you bend it, it toughens up, until finally it breaks.

I would take it easy when breaking in at first (once the engine had warmed up of course, but using bursts or full acceleration to slowly toughen up the metal), and gradually apply more bursts of throttle on the engine for longer periods of time.

crusher666

What I have done.
Well from what I can remember, I first ran one tank just idleing on the ground. then another tank half on ground half in air. Then another tank i drove the thing up and down my street giving it a bit of throttle here and there, maybe once or twice for no more than 2 seconds of full throttle. Next tank I was giving it a fair bit more gas, and keeping full throttle for about 5 seconds about 5 times through the tank and leaning it out a fair bit over the run. My next run I was giving full throttle a lot and leaning it out-got it into third gear. Goes realy well up the top end. It is still very hard to get off the mark though. I have a fair amount of smoke coming out the tail pipe even at third gear. It does not sound that good at medium throttle but sounds realy good at full!
I am pretty sure you are going to tell me that i have moved pretty fast in the break in period, but I have found it very difficult to drive it slow!
Am i ready to give it a flogging yet?? Can I place both engines on at the same time just to see how it goes. Or what??
It is very difficult to be patient, and I am not doing to well! But the engine should still be ok yeah?

Fuelman

My Feedback: (6)

Crusher,
sounds like you need to lean out the low speed needle a little bit, from your description it sounds like it is way to rich on the low speed side.
Go flog the things, they're plenty worn in by now, especially since you did some ideling which is not real good for engine longevity, but it sure beds the piston fast.

Just tune it for excellent performance off idle and on the top end and go enjoy you vehicles.