Biohazard53188

enjoymentboy

WOW!!! You've got some info in there that will really shorten an engine's life and performance quite a bit if not kill it outright.

NEVER break in an engine by free-idling. DON'T keep it at a very low temp and running rich. That's the old-school way and it has been shown to no longer be the best way to break in an engine. You want to get the engine up to operating temp (200°F - 240°F) as soon as possible and keep it there for 3 minutes running at no more than 1/4 throttle. Now shut down the engine, put the piston to BDC and let it cool completely. Do this over and over until you have around 25 minutes of runtime on the engine and then repeat it all over again but going up to 1/2 throttle. After the next 25 minutes is passed your engine should be nicely broken in.

This is known as the heat-cycling method and with the materials that are in use nowadays is the best way to break in your new engine. It can take a while to do right but it is well worth it.

I don't get this part. If you pinch off the pressure line why would you also plug the stinger? There is no need to touch the pressure line when priming. Plug the stinger and turn over the engine until the fuel just reaches the carb. Turn it over 2 more times and you are all set.

NEVER tell a newbie to start off at full throttle. You never want to do anything other than brief bursts of WOT. 3-5 seconds at the most...unless you like broken conrods and shot bearings. Sure you can do high speed passes, but not full on WOT for extended periods of time.

I can appreciate the fact that you are trying to help as many people as you can, but please make sure that you are not passing on info that is either out of date or simply harmful to THEIR equipment. I've been into RC for 20+ years now and the changes that have come about are amazing. Everyone must update their information from time to time keep up to date.

Enjoymentboy

Cummins

Wow, thats two completely opposite opinions. I'm a relative newb and this is how I broke in my engine and have had no problems with it:

I place the car on a stand and started it up. I let it idle for a tank, I then repeated this. After the second tank of idle. I placed it on the ground and did very slow (1/3 throttle max, not even that much) passes along a straight road, while adjusting steering trim. I repeated this a lot, gaining in confidence (and speed) over about 6 tanks. NOTE: This was my first real RC car so I was learning how to drive at the same time, I never went to full throttle at all through the whole break in perios, and still havn't really gone above 35mph. After my 6th tank, I took it to a big open car park and let all hell loose...

Philster

I agree with the objections to the thread starters instructions.

That stuff is old school.

Follow the damn manufacturs instructions. Good practice is heat cycling, and cooling with piston at BDC. Common is running rich, and running blips at full throttle.

You can't just give instructions to the whole RC community like the thread starter did.

Cummins

Yeah, different engines require different breakins. I use this as a rule though: if the manufacturer says use 4 tanks to break in, I use 8. If the manufacturer says use 9 tanks, I use 13. Basically the 4 tanks after the manufacturers recommended break in, I would still run it easy and slow.

Fuelman

My Feedback: (6)

OK Folks, keep in mind the purpose of this thread- to help people break in an engine correctly.
Now, I will go over it quote by quote on what is and is not the correct method of breaking in an RC Car nitro engine.

1. Before starting a brand new engine, take out the glow plug, take off the carb, and take off the backplate (this will not void your warranty) and with great care not to splash it around, rince the engine insides with glow fuel or kerosene or another suitable solvent. Flush the carb and the cylinder as well, rotate the engine over by hand a time or two. This gets a lot of the metalic dust out of the engine that has been left over from the manufacturing. You will be surprised on how much metalic dust comes out of some engines. Is it necessary? I think so for longevity reasons. Dry it off and lube it up with some castor oil or after run oil or even a little good ole motor oil. Reassemble engine and install it in the car.

2.
This is not necessary nor does not hurt anything. Remember that top dead center is when you turn the flywheel against great resistance (the pinch) and then it all of a sudden has slack in it.

Adjust all your linkages and radio/ throttle barrel, do your plumbing etc.
Always check and set the high speed and low speed needles according to the instructions, they are sometimes not set correctly at the factory.
Put fuel in tank, get it primed, etc

3. Preheat the top of the cylinder to relieve some of the pinch. A hair dryer might do it but it does need to get a lot hotter than a hairdryer will get, but anything will help here. Make sure you throughly heat it up.
Put on your glow driver and fire it up

4. You need to leave the glow driver on there and keep it running with the throttle, do not be afraid to spike it a bit to keep it running and getting it warmed up. Hold a nice real high idle and take off the glow driver. If it stalls when removed, its either too rich or the plug is bad. Start it back up.

5.
Absoutly wrong unless you want to be buying pistons and sleeves long before you realy need to.

Do this:
Once it will start and run without the glow driver on, let the wheels freewheel and hit the throttle. If the engine is stumbling and not cleaning out to run at high speed throttle, lean out the high speed needle just enough to allow it to run in a nice clean mode. As soon as it will run clean, put it on the ground, and run it around. Do not just putt around at a low throttle, drive it!!!, take it to full throttle for very short periods and varying throttle positions. you may have to pit real quick to adjust the needle so its not so rich that it will not clean out during transition. Run it for two to three minutes and then bring it in and shut it down to cool completly to ambient tempreture.

6. Start it up once cooled off and do it again. Repeat the procedure (heat cycling) a minimum of three times but I really prefer the first 15 minutes of the engines life is nothing but heat cycling. After the first run, you will probably need to start tweeking the low speed needle a bit and the high speed a bit as well, start driving it harder and harder each run. You can accelerate the cooling by holding the hair dryer over it set to just blow air but DO NOT SHOCK COOL IT WITH FUEL OR ALCOHOL during the break in heat cycling time.

7.
Forget about the smoke and use your ears. I say this because the oil quality and type in the fuel is different for every manufacturer and some fuels smoke very very little making it hard to use that as a tuning tool. Yor ears are the most important tool you have.
If it is burburly from an idle, lean it out about an eighth of a turn at a time untill it spools up crisp and clean off an idle. Of course you can not do this on a cold engine, only tune on a fully warmed up engine. You will not need a temp gun either.

8. When you're done running for the day, pinch the fuel line and let the engine die from starvation, never flood it out by putting your finger over the exhaust. If you have wet fuel in the crankcase, it will absorbe moisture and potentially rust up bearings and the crankshaft. Run it dry and that way little if any liquid fuel is left in the engine to pull moisture in. Use an after run if you like.



This is not completly necessary. You can run it up to full throttle for short periods during the first couple heat cycling runs, it only helps. 25 minutes of heat cycling anything will not hurt it one bit, but no need exists to restrain yourself to 1/4 or 1/2 throttle in breaking it in. Getting the thing to operating temp is the critical thing (not too rich and not too lean).


Absoutly correct, although the bearings are unaffected by throttle and the con rods will only get tossed when the engine is running so rich athat the piston is being pinched in the sleeve top and stressing the rod too much. yet another reason not to run these things too rich.


Yes, heat cycling is good. Most people get in trouble by reading the instructions because most of the instructions I have read are completly incorrect on how to break in the engines. Recently I read the Fantom instructions and they are right on target. Use the instructions for what the needle settings should be and other generic issues.


Yes, different engines do require different break in procedures. For iexample- Ringed engines are broken in completly differently than I describe, and so are lapped iron piston and sleeve engines, ABC/ABN/AAC engines are broken in like I describe.
Last I knew, all rc car and truck engines were of the ABC type and therefore can be broken in the way I describe. Brand name of engine does not matter, car, truck, airplane, boat, if its an ABC type, it can be broken in the same.

Here's my disclaimer- I do this for a living, run engines and try to destroy them, every way imaginable. I also try to see how long an engine will last when everything is done right. I've been doing this for a long time with airplanes, cars, helicopters and boats.
I do not sell parts, I do not make engines, I do not own a hobby shop. I do not have any insurable intrest in making a profit from selling parts, therefore I have no reason to have you break in an engine in a manner harmfull to the longevity of the engine. I make fuel guys, and have every reason for you to have a good running engine that lasts a long time so you use and buy lots of fuel. I make no money when my customers are waiting for engine parts or waiting for somebody to fix it.
Hope this helps.

Fuelman

Cummins

damn, thats possibly the most controversial method of breaking in I've ever encountered. What company do you work for?

Fuelman

My Feedback: (6)

What is so controversial?

I am the owner of a specialty glow fuel and specialty oil company, Cooper Fuels LLC

Cummins

Well, your telling people to throttle it when breaking it in for starters... want a list?

Fuelman

My Feedback: (6)

Cummins,
I know that this goes across the grain from what the car and buggy industry has imprinted in everybodys minds, but feel rest assured that the ABC engines used by the airplane and boat crowd have been broken in this way for the last 30 years. I know lots of guys running ABC type two strokes in planes with over 50 gallons through the engine.

What I'm saying above is run it, don't hammer the snot out of it, but don't let it sit and putt around either or do any prolonged ideling. For these ABC type engines to break in properly, they need a load put on them.
If you let these things sit and idle, super rich, with the wheels off the ground for break in, you just rapidly accelerated the wear on the piston and wore away a great deal of the pinch that makes the ABC type engine run. If you do it (break-in) the way an ABC type engine is supposed to be done (my way), and never run it too lean or too rich, you will have an engine that will far outlast (in gallons) one that is done the way the thread origonator suggests.

Do what I've done, take two identical engines in two identical cars (in this case Losi XXXNT's w/ stock Mach 15 engiens), and use the same fuel and glow plugs. Break them in on the same day, one is done in a similar fashon as the thread starter (car #1), the other one the ABC way (car #2).
Car #1 had the pinch nearly gone by the time the third tank was through. The engine ran good for about two gallons then it started to lose performance rapidly and became very erratic. Car #2 Was performing extremely well and was a two pull starter, with no hot start problems, it out performed car #1 every time and is still going strong with over 20 gallons through it. Car #1 was rebuilt using factory piston, rod and sleeve and then broken in the ABC way, it has about 15 gallons through it now ans still going strong. Keep in mind that my three boys are really hard on these cars and when they are playing with them, they will burn three or four quarts any time they get them out.

So, what is the rest of the list?

uwadockers

Yo Fuelman... I've heard about your method of breaking in but i don't have the courage to do it.. Anyways, deciding between 421B and P5.. Any suggestion which one is a better mill for somewhat technical track with a 40 metres straight?? And after the first start, you mentioned 'drive'.. Do i full throttle the fellow or just blip??

jsn

My Feedback: (8)

My car engines lasted a few gallons UNTIL I said screw it and broke them in just like I did all my plane and boat engines just as fuelman lay's out in his post... at the same time I QUIT TRYING TO TUNE TO TEMP! this is such BS! I Flew and and tuned for year's with out temp readings and enjoyed engines that have more gallons of fuel through them than I care to count... all the sudden I have to run between 220-240 if I want my engine to last? BS! and don't tell me plane engines run cooler than car engines either... THEY DON'T! car fuel has more oil in it... NOT! there are so many myth's and old wifes tail's in the car engine industry it's sad... Heat cycle your engine for breakin, tune your engine so it's not lean or RICH, let the temps be what they will and run the darn thing

John

Fuelman

My Feedback: (6)

Fire it up and drive it. Do not just blip it around the driveway! Yes, some full throttle on the first run is fine, just don't hold it there for long.


John is absoutly correct!!!
I think the best thing a car driver can do is throw away the temp gun, use your ears and eyes to tune and you'll be fine.

The entire car community has been brainwashed by some pretty magnificent marketing efforts over the years.
I am refering to break in instructions; If car parts manufacturers want to sell lots of replacement engine parts, they will give you a very short warranty (usually 30 days, where the normal airplane engine is at least one year and are as long as 5 years) and they will tell you how to break in an engine to minimize the service life so rebuild kits can be sold on a routine basis. They have also made everybody believe that the cold burbly ideling break-in is some law etched in stone and they've made everybody believe that these engines are suposed to only last a couple gallons of fuel.
I talked to one of the original importers of very high end racing car engines and asked him (before he died several years ago) why he recommended such a crazy break in and why do the engines have too much cooling where they will not get hot enough? His reply was "I want them to wear them out and buy lots of parts, I make more on a piston / sleeve set for a car engine than I do for any other part, and as you know, I warranty NOTHING"

Well, there you have it.

SqueedilySpooch

wow my RB engine came w/ a 30 day warrenty. I knew there was sumtin dumb bout that. The engine was broken in by an experinced guy from where i bought it. I don't know his methods but how could u find out how they broke it in without waiting for sumtin bad to happen? Also if it was broken in badly can i increase th life somehow? I did treat it pretty harsh for the first tank after 2 months of break in (winter...snow). I used old fuel and let it idle for 3/4 the tank once. It ran rich w/ fuel spitting out but i didn't form a big puddle. I has been only run periodically in th past months like 1/2 to 3/4 a tank every 3 to 5 weeks. I either idled it rich or ran it with the glow ignitor in cause in needed a new glow plug. I was busy so no time to run it or buy stuff. Any tips on care since the old methods of what i am used to have been lies? I hope it is not to late to save the engine. It was using trinity horsepower 20% nitro blend for the couple of tanks ( no more than 4 tanks) after break in. right now its been about a couple weeks and it is sitting on my table next to my dismantled car. if this is confusing sry typing wit one hand cause i sprained my other. took 30 min to type[:'(] thanks in advance

Fuelman

My Feedback: (6)

The fact that you let it sit and idle is not the best for your engine since it does not allow it to heat up to design fit for the piston and sleeve.
The best thing you can do is tune it to the fully broken in level (max performance and richened some) and go enjoy it. You can not reverse wear to the piston and sleeve, but you can minimize any further wear.
Your fuel choice should be fine. For future fuel purchases, if you want to, you could try S&W car fuel or Megatech's new fuel, both excellent products available in your area, you might even find Fantom. In additon to mine, these brands I mention will give you the performance you want with some pretty unbelievable protection that is real easy on engines.

bazookator

i had a question about the barrel aperture. Ive seen everywhere that engines should have about 1mm aperture, but on the manual it says 0.33. Sinceraly i find this excesively low. The engine is a .21 Vertex Engine. Could this tiny aperture be correct?¿ or is it way too small?¿

thanks

enjoymentboy

That sounds about right for a starting point. Just like your needle settings the carb opening is another area where we have to work for perfect tuning. It takes time and practice. Get a good idle and open or close the idle screw 1/16 turns at a time. See how it acts. You'll get there.

Enjoymentboy

performula

I think that FuelMan must be correct on different fuels smoke differently.


For instance:
O'Donnell smokes up a storm; however, Blue Thunder does not. I know this because I a breaking in an engine now and BT does not smoke very much unless the mixture is so rich the car does not want to move and the engine is on the verge of stalling. BT does not smoke unless you are on the throttle.

powder_king

i agree with fuel man. these engines are similar to a full size engine less the rings and fuel type but breakin is similar. dont run wot all the time but drive the thing. its like breaking in a new dirtbike. 95% of the breakin occurs in the first 20miles and the only way to seat ringsproperly is to drive it with full throttle bursts baisically dont tkae it easy on the engine but dont overwork it either

Staged

Wow, My LHS is chargin me $60 to run my new motors in
on their engine bench for 500cc's of fuel. They just let it run and actually put a
fan blowing on the motor to not let it get above 100 degrees!! They talk about "sweating the metal".

After reading this, it's making me sweat!! The motors they are breaking in for me are: JP M2K, OS Vspec and a WS7!!!

I'm panicking now!!!! They already did my JP motor, but they haven't touched my VSpek or WS7!!

SqueedilySpooch

i just found out the guy who broke in my engine did the heat cycle method. SO i am not at a big loss. Just ran it harshly a few months after he broke it in....thats not as bad right?

mentos

after reading this thread i'm a little worried.

i recieved my first nitro car 2 weeks ago and it was RTR. i didn't bother reading the manual all the way to the end, just the begining where it told me how to start the motor, the part about breaking in the motor was at the end of the manual, go figure.

i never broke in the motor, just put nitro and let the car rip. how will this affect my car and motor? how long can the car last?

thx

Fuelman

My Feedback: (6)

You'll be better off by doing what you did than doing the sit and idle super rich thing.

Jyrki

Hello

I think the principle of ABC-engine should be described to give some idea WHY to break engine in at a reasonable hot temperature

A) Aluminum piston
B) Bronze cylinder
C) Chrome plating on a cylinder

Chrome is for strengthening the bronze surface.

Aluminum /Bronze is a clever pair for an engine. Bronze expanses more when heated than aluminum. So when the engine heats, the tolerance grows, the friction reduces. I can imagine an overheat situation the Piston/Cylinder gap even leaks part of the compression and so limits some of the top power which is a good balancing thing when an engine is overheated. Looks like someone has planned this! Maybe the same clever person have planned the cylinder conical. The gap is smallest at the top. So put the piston to its lowest point when cooling!

Aluminum/Bronze kind of balances the engine tolerance. Imagine opposite way working engine (doesn't exist i hope) : when hot, the friction grows and the engine heats more. This situation would also happen when the materials are both the same if the piston heats most and the cylinder is well cooled. So put the piston to its lowest point when cooling! another reason to put the piston to its lowest point when cooling!

Imagine now, you try to 'help' your engine by extra cooling fan over a cylinder: You cool the cylinder head. The cylinder shrinks, pistons expanded, and you ADDED friction.

When cold, a new ABC engine is sometimes terribly tight! At once it is heated, it will have more gap and it turns more easily. Now, when you start first time your engine, you should get it to hot (lease friction) running environment. This should be easy, because you have the new engine and so the maximum friction, which heats your engine ALOT!

So, run it in a short burst to get the normal running environment, but then stop it because you would overheat because of the great friction.

Slowly after some time the piston worns (breaks in) to its best dimensions and shape and this reduces the friction to normal level. At this point you can run the engine constantly. And you are done.

Imagine you break it in cool: you have maximum tightness and friction and your engine is worn too quickly.

So break it in hot, but reasonable! You don't want to melt the piston.

One more thing I want to say: I believe Castor oil conforms a polymer surface like varnish over a piston at a long time sequence. It has brown color and it feels like Teflon plating when you touch it. I think Castor oil tightens the piston gap quite alot.

Sorry if my technical English is limited. I just hope this clears some confusion. If someone wants to correct or disagree with my ideas, please feel free to. If you are 'other school' please try to explain a bit.

Jyrki

Fuelman

My Feedback: (6)

Jyrki:
For your technical english, you did a great job of describing the principles of the ABC engine. On other forums on this site, the ABC thing has been very well covered so I never did go into detail of the metalurgy behind why a hot break in is beneficial.

You mention castor oil, yes, it develops a varnish that is actually an excellent lubricant at operating tempreture. I will always be a firm believer in at least some castor oil in a fuel used for ABC engines, especially car engines.