gabbonator

nitrous oxide,everyone wants it, and nobody wants to pay $180 for it. so heres my attempt at making a system for less than the retail price, hopefully around $50-$100. This is being written as i make it so until the time of which it is finnished and proven to work i wouldnt recommend attempting this project with the given instructions.

anyway here we go.

my basic plan is to attach a small bottle of n2o to a valve which is controlled by the servo which controls the carb. essentially, the more throttle, the more n2o. as i have found out this afternoon, this may not be possible due to the amount of force required to operate a valve so i may have to use a solenoid valve instead. so far i have attained a pack of ten nitrous oxide bottles which are used for making whipped cream, these can be bought for around $7 at supermarkets.




im now going to make a botttle mount and sort out some hoses. will post photos soon.

edit: ive found a 12v solenoid at jaycar electronics. only $14. and tommorrow i'm going to a bike store to take a look at the automatic tyre inflating things. they use the same type of gas bottle filled with co2, so im hoping i could pull the connector out of it.

rican25

Gabb dont know if this helps but I ran Nitrous on my pocket bike and it used a modified manifold which was just a fitting drilled into it and when you squeezed the trigger in went the go fast juice. problem is the boost only last for a few seconds. fun, but i wouldnt do it again. the nitrous kit was purchased from boosinductionsystems.com <----- not sure if thats allowed, forgive me if its not.

gabbonator

im not against commercial systems, and i realise the trill will be short lived, im just tryin to give a cheap alternative to backyard bashers or drag racing enthusiasts. $180 for a kit which ,from my current information, could be built for less than $50, is in my opinion outrageous.

rican25

yeah seems kinda funny how people all the time are finding much more inexpensive ways to do things that retailers are way overcharging us for. Let me know how it goes Id like to see one complete and up and running. good luck

eclipseaudio4

only problem I see coming into play is that you will experence and over lean condition when you hit the button unless you are running rich, unless you are only allowing a small amount into the carb wich would not give that much of a boost. N2O systems on cars not only inject N20 but also have a second injector that sprays fuel. How rich will also be a problem you may end up blowing quite a few engines in the process of figureing this out.

rican25

great point eclipse... however do you think a boost bottle would work I know it works off of the pulse idea of a 2 stroke engine and it seemed to work just fine for the pocket bike I ran it on but not sure if it allowed more fuel at any given point? just my 2 cents

gabbonator

my preffered idea for this setup was to have a valve which let in the gas. rig this valve up to the carb control so the valve copied the carbs movements, the downside of this is that the nitrous would have to be on constantly for the fuel air ratio to remain correct. then again with the solenoid system would have the same problem and the solenoids are easier to find. anyway, im going with the solenoid for simplicity sake. essentially this will just be a copy of the commercial systems. i think to see the most benefit from the system the car would have to be run with the nitrous constantly on, and the car very rich to compensate. for a milder boost you could just make your nozzle smaller.

as for the injection method im thinking of just running a hose past my air filter and spraying it at the carb. i know its better to do it after the carb but that would be complicated and expensive for most people.

boost bottles are, in my opinion, not overly usefull. if you want to really add more fuel buy a perry fuel pump. they run off crankcase pressure. but i think if it works without extra fuel on the commercial versions, it should do the same on mine.

i find it amazing how many people say stuff like"your gonna blow lots of engines doin that". firstly, its not that likely if you are carefull and patient. and secondly, so what? a new engine is like $100. you could make the system, blow the engine and buy a new one for less than the price of a commercial nitrous system

i found a review of the commercial system:

FULL SHOT
Once the engine was warmed up and tuned in, I began the nitrous shot at 11,00rpm when the dyno began logging data and kept it spraying until 34,500rpm when the run was concluded. The results were impressive, with a power jump from 1.41HP at 21,500rpm to 1.63HP at 21,000 rpm—a 16% increase in peak horsepower. Torque jumped to 78.71oz.-in. at 18,000rpm—an increase of 11.52oz-in. Impressive to say the least, but the engine did start to cough at the end of the run, and the NX bottle and tube had nearly frozen over from the low temperature nitrous fluid spraying for approximately 8 seconds during the run. Although the power increase was considerable, it seemed that the system could be more effective when shot at mid-RPM levels.

NITROUS SHOT AT 20,000 RPM
Next up was nitrous shot at 20,000rpm, which is where the HPI .28 engine's power peaked during its non-nitrous run. The results blew my mind to say the least, and the power graph tells the whole story. You can clearly see when the nitrous shot is applied at 20,000 rpm, where power spikes from 1.25HP for both engines to an absurd 1.87HP at 21,650rpm on nitrous versus the 1.41HP peak for the standard run. That's a 0.46HP increase, or an enormous 32% increase in peak power, as well as a considerable power increase all across the entire powerband. At 27,000rpm, the nitrous-shot run pulls 1.78HP versus 1.06HP for the non-nitrous shot run—a full 51% power increase. Torque also jumps during this run, from 67.2 oz.-in. to 88.32 oz.-in. for a 31% bump in axle twisting torque.

now thats something to lookfoward to!

rcnitrohead

Hey Gabb, I think if you do succeed with this, you will be THE MAN But, I would suggest making it run like the RB system, have a micro switch which starts the flow of NO2 at full throttle instead of a steady flow..[8D]

eclipseaudio4

I'm not trying to kill your idea I would love to see this work for you. I also believe that there has got to be some sort of disclaimer for the commercial systems because if the engine is not properly tuned than when they add the go juice it's gonna blow and people would be trying to sue. (I know petty but they are out there) Also when N20 systems do blow and engine it is like a bomb going off and i would have o think that people could easily get hurt! But enough of that I hope it works out for you, please keep us posted, and be careful don't want to hear about you having to have shrapnel removed.

gabbonator

ive done some stuff with explosives before and it'd have to be waaaay more powerful than what you have in a nitro engine to have the thing explode. there are 3 main reasons why it probably wouldnt go boom.
1. for something to explode it has to be in a reasonably enclosed space with nowhere for the pressure from the explosive to go. nitro engines are reasonably enclosed but there are still intake and exhaust ports for the gas to escape out of.
2. i doubt youd be able to fit enough fuel into the cylinder for the whole thing to explode.
3. in explosions the pressure escapes thru the path with the least resistance, this is why the engine works in the first place.(its easier for the explosion to push the piston down than it is to get out thru the cylinder walls or glow plug hole.) the part of the cylinder which is the softest and easiest to push thru is most likely to be the glow plug or thru the gap between the spacer washer and the head/heatsink. so in the worst case scenario, if the piston has melted to the sleeve and none of the ports are exposed the explosion will probably blow out the glow plug. whether this will fly out is a matter of luck (it could simply have a hole blown in its weakest point). if it did fly out, it would be pointed upwards and hence not likely to hit anyone. if it blew out the spacer washers, it would probably only go in the weakest point meaning the whole head isnt likely to go flying.

what i think is most likely to happen is that the pistons connecting rod will break and my gearbox will die from the added power. everything else in the engine is pretty thick.

and one more thing, has anyones nitro engine ever actually exploded sending shrapnel everywhere? everyone comments about flying shrapnel and exploding engines, but has it actually ever happened?

in other news...
in response to nitrohead, yes i probably will go with a solenoid valve with a switch. however instead of having a valve which would be likely to leak under pressure, im thinking of having a solenoid which would just pinch the hose that carries the gas and lets it go when its switched on.

as for a connector for the gas bottles, ive seen and got to use a soda maker thingy the other day. its really simple, essentially all it consists of is a screw in bottle holder and a piece of pipe with a smaller piece of pipe glued on inside it. so you put the bottle in the holder and screw the holder onto the pipe with the smaller pipe. the smaller pipe pierces the bottle and voila.(man thats hard to explain) so i could buy one...or get an appropriatly sized piece of pipe and glue a piece of wire to the inside of it. so when the bottle is pressed into the pipe the wire pierces the film on the bottle and the gas escapes.

anyway that was probably hard to visualise, ill make it tommorrow.

edit: try n2o water instead of sodawater. it tastes slightly sweeter.

Grits

You will have to supply extra fuel to the engine when it's "on the bottle" either by a 2nd solenoid or mixing it in the bottle with the gas itself. The N2O system will require at least 25% more fuel. If you tune the engine real rich it will be not enough and when the bottle opens the eng will go lean and flame out. If you tune the engine to run while on the bottle, when the bottle empties the engine will go way rich and die.

Be careful no matter what. In drag racing there have been some tremendous explosions running both nitro and straight methanol. Be safe, not sorry. While I may not agree with you, I sure don't want you hurt.

gabbonator

how rich i have to run it depends on how much nitrous i inject ie. if im not injecting much nitrous, i could get away with just running it rich. i know it is supposed to have more fuel added but as ive said previously, im just copying the commercial systems. extra fuel injection would be sweet but then id have to worry about an extra solenoid and a way of pressurising the fuel. besides, peoples conrods snap just running the commercially available systems which use only nitrous, so if im adding so much nitrous that i have to add extra fuel, a whole lotta stuff is gonna c*** out on me. in particular my recently rounded conrod.

however if i WAS to add extra fuel, do you think it'd be possible to simply add a t-junction into the fuel line to the carb, and have the extra line from the tee going to the solenoid? im wondering if that would deliver enough pressure to get a mist of fuel. if so that may be an option.


edit: today ive sorted out the bottle mount...well kinda. its being held in place with some silicone becaus i dont have any glue at the mo. ill pick some up tomorrow so can make it more permenant. photos coming as soon as i find the camera. i put it somewhere and now its not there[:-]

Spetz

Are there Nos kits for these RC cars?

As someone mentioned, you need to make some sort of a wet kit so that it injects fuel + N2o

A simple idea is maybe open up the carb settings to run rich, however have the pressure line into the fuel tank only pressurise it very little, and that when you hit the Nos button, it opens up the pressure hose?
Don't know if it'll work though

gabbonator

nos is a brand not a chemical. nos (along with others) is the company of which makes these systems for an outrageous price. nitrous is what you inject into your car. sorry to rant but im sick of people getting the two mixed up. anyway, before i keep answering questions over and over again please read the posts before asking a question. i know theres alot to read but ALL of those things you have just posted have been said or explained....some in the post before yours. so please read before posting.

enough with that, ill post some pics in the morning. they need natural light because the bottle and bracket are too bright from the flash.

gabbonator

hate to double post but hey, whaddaya gonna do.

ok. heres the main part of the tutorial. i havent got an appropriate bottle mount yet because mine wasnt strong enough.

parts you'll need and approximate price:
1m of 4mm aquarium tube (size depends on other parts) $2
air solenoid valve $14
9v battery (my solenoid said it needed 12V but ran on 9v anyway) $5
small switch with long arm $2
soda syphon (coming soon) price varies.
adapters for soda syphon, price varies
double sided tape $6
nitrous bottles $7 for pack of 10
adjustable irrigation sprinkler nozzle $2
solder $2
9v battery clip $1



disreguard the second battery and clip


the switch


the spray nozzles. on the left is the non adjustable kind, on the right is the adjustable one. i used an adjustable one so that i could regulate the amount of nitrous going into the carb. this way i can stop the car running too lean or too rich by simply by turning a knob rather than switching a whole nozzle.


tools you'll need:
scissors
plyers
wire cutters
soldering iron

what to do:
figure out where to mount your solenoid, battery, switch and bottle. the switch has to be turned on when the throttle servo arm reaches WOT(wide open throttle).

this is where i mounted mine.

cut all of your hoses to length. you want your adjustable sprinkler between your solenoid and your air filter. cut a groove in the air filter for the hose from the sprinkler to fit in. the other side of the solenoid goes to your soda syphon.





solder all connections (wiring diagram coming soon) and then mount all parts to designated spots.

more info on testing coming soon.

Spetz

Nice work there
So, from my reading, not even the commercial kit adds more fuel into the motor when the nitrous is activated?
And works simply with WOT throttle?

What benefits would this have though over just running higher nitro content in the fuel?
Also without being able to pump more fuel into the motor only when the nitro is being fed it seems somewhat of a pointless venture
As, you'd be losing power and using more fuel than needed on anything but WOT?

gabbonator

the higher nitro content may not be allowed depending on the competition you are in. most ban nitrous as well but from memory some dont. as for the backyard user, i doubt there would be much benefit other than the coolness factor however it may be cheaper than buying a super high nitro content fuel. besides, theres only so much nitro you can add to your fuel cause you still need oil in it.

the commercial kits dont add extra fuel even tho you probably should for max performance. i think this is because when nitrous gets to around 150 degrees the oxygen separates out of the nitrogen. as you know, when something burns in pure oxygen it is much more volatile. in this case it wouldnt nessicarily be pure oxygen but simply a higher oxgen content than the atmosphere. so with increased oxgen in the cylinder the fuel is more volatile thus giving you a performance boost. so in theory it should still do something without extra fuel. i will look into a fuel injection system for it tho, its just that it would need an extra solenoid and the pressure from the fuel tank may not be enough to get a spray of fuel going. besides, i dont think the solenoids are meant for liquid.

im thinking of using this system to do drag runs so i will run the nitrous the whole time the engine is so i dont have to worry about extra fuel, i just have to run rich. essentially WOT probably isnt the best position for the switch, i was just doing what the other setups do. and thanks for reading before posting

Grits

You've been doing some thinking on this so here's something to think about more. In a gasoline engine a close to perfect air/fuel ratio is 14 to 1. Our rc engines also have a near perfect ratio, although I haven't seen one published, and there isn't much needle difference between too lean and too rich. With the introduction of nitrous oxide there will be quite a bit more oxygen available, more fuel will have to be added. Linked to this is the combustion triangle of ignition, oxygen, and fuel. Take away any one and combustion will not occur. Also, google the lower explosive limit and upper explosive limit and you'll see that a mixture can be too rich to burn or too lean to burn. To sum it up, if your engine is so rich that it can run with no added fuel when the nitrous is introduced, it will run like poo under normal conditions and if your engine is tuned to make good power, when the nitrous is introduced it will go way lean and flame out. I saw somewhere that the kits for rc engines had like 20% nitromethanol(?) in the bottle to supply the extra fuel. The project has some hurdles to be sure but these things I've said are pretty much tried and true and trying to go around them will only introduce more problems. Good luck.

gabbonator

at the mo it doesnt bother me if it runs like poo under normal conditions. im quite happy to only use it for drag racing or general mucking around cause i dont use my car that much anyway. but definately fuel injection is something im looking into. ill need to see if this works as it is to start with and then build on it from there. what im thinking atm is that if i have a hose running off of the main fuel line and then set up in the exact same way as the nitrous is. then comes the difficult part of tuning it.

and to quote rbinnovations "These disposable cartridge packs are made from pure Nitrous " doesnt even mention nitromethanol.

Spetz

What about making you own mix with the nitro/fuel from a LHS
And figuring out for example, 10 parts nitro should be 1 part fuel
And combining the right mixture of fuel and nitro into a cylinder that works the same as you have above, except it'd inject both fuel and nitro through the same hose?

I see what you're trying to do, get one step working and then the next but it'd be cool to have a complete bolt on solution where you just install it and whenever you need at extra boost you press a button

gabbonator

hmmmmm.....sounds expensive. i think the gas bottles are a bit of a pipedream (like solar power and electric cars).itd be nice to do it that way but the bottles would be at least 5 bucks a pop. diverting fuel line could be done for $15 and then its free. besides, id need special refillable bottles and a way of filling them.

Spetz

A bottle with some sort of a pressure valve setup?

But yeah, if more fuel can be pumped at the same time it'd be easier/cheaper in the long run

However, it'd be easier to "tune" with the premixed setup. As from research you'd know what % fuel and what % nitro would work well together, so you'd mix it that way
As opposed to an extra fuel line... how would you tune it? And have an idea of how much extra fuel to put into it?

gabbonator

because you wouldnt get much pressure from the fuel line you would want to use as much of that pressure as possible. so id put a high flow sprinkler nozzle on the end of that line. this way the amount of fuel being injected is constant for each run. then you do a few nitrous runs with the car and figure out whether it is running too lean or too rich when the nitrous comes on. then you adjust the nitrous valve to compensate. reasonably simple

Spetz

In theory yeah
Well good luck with it all, do keep us posted on how everything goes. I hope it does work
I guess then, if you figure out a way to add more fuel, it'd be pretty easy to just get a RB Nitrous kit and just work on the fuel line itself (for other users I mean)

Grits

I threw in the mixture in the bottle from reading in another thread, maybe he meant full size stuff. At any rate most, not all, nitrous oxide bottles use industrial grade gas which has just enough sulphur dioxide in it to keep idiots from breathing the stuff for a high. That won't impact tuning. Go for it as I am a firm believer in "Do something. Even if it is wrong it will most likely tell you which way to go from there." Good luck with your project.