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Bridi Super Kaos Build

Old 12-27-2010, 08:51 PM
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EscapeFlyer
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Default Bridi Super Kaos Build

I'm starting my Eureka Aircraft cut Full Kit Super Kaos.

I have studied the many ways to mount retracting nose-gear in pattern ships from build threads at RCU and other RC forums as well. With the modern equipment (limited in options) we have today, I will have to modify the plans to accomidate them.

I HATE changing the plans, it feels like I am cheating. Joe Bridi certainly knew what he was doing more than I do. I wish I could ask him his opinion /permission on this.

I am convinced I have OCD, making it very difficult to accept a change in the plans to move forward.


Which is the least offensive, from a general consensus perspective?

1. Lengthening the nose to allow more gear length...

or

2. cutting into the leading edge of the wing.

#2 would stay accurate to Joe Bridi's outline. This seams the least offensive to me. Would others agree???

Or should I do something different altogether?

Brian

Old 12-27-2010, 09:00 PM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

Brian,
Cut into the LE of the wing. That was done quit a bit back in the early days of pattern. If you lengthen the nose you will be changing the aerodynamics of the plane.
Ralph White
Old 12-28-2010, 04:18 AM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

ORIGINAL: Ralph White

Brian,
Cut into the LE of the wing. That was done quit a bit back in the early days of pattern. If you lengthen the nose you will be changing the aerodynamics of the plane.
Ralph White
Ditto what Ralph statedBrian. I've done a Kaos in the past; all I did was add a 1/8 ply dihedral (6"in length but may not even need it) and ensured I glassed the center section well. I have a scrath built Tiger Tail I that we did the same thing on.

Mark
Old 12-28-2010, 04:27 AM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

I would cut the fuselage former and the front of the wing, that's how we did it back in the day. Here is the link to my Howard Enginering Kwik Fli III Taper Wing build that was started in 1974 and final finish work completed in 2005 http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_2434444/tm.htm . The thread has some pretty good pics of how we did it. Because the build was started in 74, I would contend it is historically correct!!
Old 12-28-2010, 09:13 AM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

Brian,

I have been fooling around with a Kaos plan this month. I confess that I have no reservations about moving, shifting, changing or generally adapting the lines to suit me - especially on such a model.

At a 48" scale which I'm interested in, I didn't see any immediate need to change the front bulkheads separation for retracts (but I haven't looked at it in detail). Are you sure that you need to make modifications in the first place?

One thing that I would change immediately is the size of the wheels called for - way too big in my opinion.

My overall feeling is that what is "holy" about the classics is their planform and their moments. What goes on inside the fuse and/or wing is all together another story. Many of the fuse designs were rather arcane (e.g., Mach 1) and while they are interesting from a historical build perspective, there is no reason not to improve on the construction methods if they facilitate the construction or, as in many cases, reduce weight and increase strength.

Keep in mind that these guys back in the day (as today as well), were altering the plans constantly. Hence, the Mk I, II,..., NN versions customary back then.

David.
Old 12-28-2010, 12:58 PM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

Thanks guys. This helps tremendously.

I feel much better keeping the outline and adapting the internal structure to make it work.

David-

I am learning the challenges of classic pattern building here for sure.

I am wanting to keep prop clearance. If I were to use a smaller wheel, I would still need to adjust bulkead #2 and the LE of the wing. Prop clearance is the issue.


Thanks!

Brian
Old 12-28-2010, 01:07 PM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

While I have seen a few Super Kaos models with retractable landing gear, I'm not convinced that Mr. Bridi designed this model to incorporate retracts, in spite of the marketing hype saying that it was. You all know how marketing types are...(smile)

As far as I know, Joe is still alive and kicking. It would be nice if he would comment on this topic.


Ed Cregger
Old 12-28-2010, 01:28 PM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

I would love to hear from Mr. Bridi. Definitely a hero to me!

The plans show where to set up the retracts. The picture on the build instruction sheet from RCU plans show the plane standing on these retracts as well.

The other major outline issue I see between modern builds of the S Kaos and the picture of Mr. Bridi's airplane is the fuse is shaped more than most people shape it (most people keep the fuse very square- personaly, I think this dramtically effects flying characteristics. The fuse stalls out a lot quicker when it transitions into knife-edge flight) and the wing tips seem to be entirely wrong.
The LE of the wing as designed comes to a very sharp point. Mr. Bridi's picture shows this same contour into the wing tip as well.

The sharp LE will change the performance rather than the blunt LE. I think Great Planes made this change for a more "agreeable" flying airplane for more of the masses. I say that based on how they instruct you to shape the LE of the Ultra Sport. Sport flying would use a more blunt LE, competition flying uses a sharper LE.

I will go with original intent. I really don't see this incorporated into modern builds of the S Kaos these days.

On a side note, I wonder how blunt the arf is.

I think it was smart for me to put down my UFO, and start with the Super Kaos (actualy, I started with my daughter's RCM Advanced Trainer. A Bridi design of course.).

Off topic-
My hopes to build in the future:

UFO
Dirty Birdy
XLT
Escape

Orion

Deception

The original Tiger Tail

Kwik Fli III

J-bipe (Firemaster conversion)
Aeromaster Too
RCM Acro Star
Bolero

And the Aurora 90.

I wouldn't mind a few of the new .25 sized models coming out now either...

I am sure this list is subject to change.

Brian
Old 12-28-2010, 05:50 PM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

To opine, if you are going to modify the plane why not make a tail dragger out of it? Less weight and 1 less gear to fool with. Just an option.
Old 12-28-2010, 06:12 PM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

TAIL DRAGGER!!!! [X(]
Old 12-28-2010, 06:58 PM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

ORIGINAL: mike31

To opine, if you are going to modify the plane why not make a tail dragger out of it? Less weight and 1 less gear to fool with. Just an option.
Applying to me (not an attack on your suggestion), this is the easy way out and I won't learn a single thing. Again, it would be cheating Joe Bridi for myself. I am not accusing anyone else of this, but I just can't bring myself to do it.

This is a hobby for me, and history resurrected.

I am tring to keep the "modifications" the mods they would have used in the proper genre. My goal is to maintain the exterior profile if possible. I don't worry too much about the internal in this reagrd as I do the external. I was simply unsure if Mr. Bridi would approve of my changes. Some of the gentleman that have answered me I know were familiar with Mr. Bridi personally during this genre and help to set me at ease. Besides, 3 gear retracts are cool!

If only Mr. Bridi would chime in...

I have taken the easy way out in most things in my life and it has done nothing good for me. If a thing is worth doing, than it is worth doing it right. If my goal is a tail dragger, than there is no problem to that regard. But if my goal is to recreate a golden part of our histroy using modern equipment and in many cases, techniques, and to try and increase interest in CPA type events, then the taildragger would be cheating myself, and everyone I want to fly along side. I would have learned nothing, and unable to pass on nothing.

Regarding the weight issue...

Jim Whitley had an interesting concept. With his Daddy Rabbit, he originaly built it over 9 lbs. His second one was well over 8lbs.

His reason:
When you fly at many different flying sites in so many different locations, you never run into a consistant weather pattern. Weight is your friend in these conditions.

With an airframe that is designed to weigh around 7 1/2lbs WITH retracts, I am not at all concerned about weight.

For me, my VERY BEST flying airplanes (60 sized) weigh in between 8 1/2 to 9lbs. I am also going to be using composite materials. I'll try to keep the weight down in the build as the fuse and tailgrouping will be fiberglassed, and the wing will be Koverall. If there was ANYONE in my area that could teach me how to use silk, I would rather go that route as I have read this is how Mr. Bridi finished his aircraft.

I have never enjoyed the way my lighter aircraft fight the wind.

Brian
Old 12-28-2010, 07:32 PM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build


ORIGINAL: Ilikebipes
David-

I am learning the challenges of classic pattern building here for sure.

I am wanting to keep prop clearance. If I were to use a smaller wheel, I would still need to adjust bulkead #2 and the LE of the wing. Prop clearance is the issue.

Thanks!

Brian
Brian,

ground clearance of course is paramount. Most of the Kaos and SK I've seen were built around short strut lengths, much like Joe's original. It seems like you are intent in staying as faithful to the original as you are able to. That would mean that you should plan on turning an 11" prop which requires 6-1/2" of clearance from thrust line to ground. There are a couple of different ways you can achieve that clearance while changing the wheel diameter. You can lengthen the strut and reduce the wheel size or shorten the strut and use a larger wheel and you end up in either case with the same clearance. The difference between the two though is that it is usually easier to sort out the nose retract installation with a smaller wheel - both if you have to fit a fuel tank above it as you do as well as if you have to produce an opening in the wing to pass the wheel.

If I were building a SK 60 I would use a 2" nose wheel and 2-1/4" mains.

Just something to keep in mind.

David.
Old 12-28-2010, 08:26 PM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

It seems like you are intent in staying as faithful to the original as you are able to.
Yes.

That would mean that you should plan on turning an 11" prop which requires 6-1/2" of clearance from thrust line to ground.
This is what I was expecting- hence my dilemma...

Most of the Kaos and SK I've seen were built around short strut lengths, much like Joe's original.
David, could you elaborate? Do you know if Joe used a smaller diameter prop too? I have yet to read much information anywhere of people that have actualy installed retracts into their SK. I know it's been done, just not many examples.

both if you have to fit a fuel tank above it as you do as well as if you have to produce an opening in the wing to pass the wheel.
The engine will be pumped, so the tank will be installed over CG. This completely opens up the area above the front retract.

Brian
Old 12-29-2010, 03:20 AM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

I spoke with Joe on the phone several years ago about this very issue. His suggestion was to make it a tail-dragger, for two reasons, ground clearance and allowing for enough room in the nose section for the fuel tank.

He stated the only reason that the original was a trike, is that at the time it was designed, the taxi, take off and landings were graded as part of the flight.

That being said I have had four SK and several of the other flavors. Of those only one had retracts and I have followed Joes suggestion.

After flying it both ways I would save the effort of installing retracts for a Dirty Birdy or UFO, as you don’t gain a lot as far as performance on the KAOS. Just my two cents.

On another note the mods to the GP/TH versions of this bird were to tame out the 40 sized SK, the smaller version had a bad tendency to snap at slow speeds. Ask me how I know. LOL
Old 12-29-2010, 07:36 AM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build


ORIGINAL: NM2K

While I have seen a few Super Kaos models with retractable landing gear, I'm not convinced that Mr. Bridi designed this model to incorporate retracts, in spite of the marketing hype saying that it was. You all know how marketing types are...(smile)

As far as I know, Joe is still alive and kicking. It would be nice if he would comment on this topic.


Ed Cregger
Actually, the Super Kaos was fully-intended to accomodate retractable landing gear. The RCM article had pictures of Joe Bridi holding the model and showing off the retracts. The article also described his resoning behind the design of the airplane, and how it differed from the Kaos. Retracts were part of it.

Old 12-29-2010, 07:40 AM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

ORIGINAL: Bax


ORIGINAL: NM2K

While I have seen a few Super Kaos models with retractable landing gear, I'm not convinced that Mr. Bridi designed this model to incorporate retracts, in spite of the marketing hype saying that it was. You all know how marketing types are...(smile)

As far as I know, Joe is still alive and kicking. It would be nice if he would comment on this topic.


Ed Cregger
Actually, the Super Kaos was fully-intended to accomodate retractable landing gear. The RCM article had pictures of Joe Bridi holding the model and showing off the retracts. The article also described his resoning behind the design of the airplane, and how it differed from the Kaos. Retracts were part of it.


So...

Now I have to ask.. Anyone have a copy of this article on pdf they could send me or set up on www.4share.com ?

Also, this thread has become very helpful and I want to thank everyone that is pitching in here.

Brian
Old 12-29-2010, 08:48 AM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

Brian,

the Kaos/SK articles are on the trenton site as are the plans.

If you install the tank on the CG, you'll have a ball getting the gear into the model. If I may comment, I feel you may be over working this one. It's a simple model, keep it simple and it'll be fun. Over engineer it and you'll be sorting things out til the cows come home. This model doesn't need a pumped engine (most of Joe's designs don't) - keep it for a late 80's design that does. I also agree with Paternguy, I'd keep the retracts for a different model.

David.
Old 12-29-2010, 09:23 AM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

I feel you may be over working this one. It's a simple model, keep it simple and it'll be fun. Over engineer it and you'll be sorting things out til the cows come home.
Quite frankly, I knew this comment would arise as it is an early airplane. But I will not be happy unless I get through this. I overthink everything. It is who I am... Remember my OCD comment? Many an airplane I could not finish as I was unhappy with my results.

This model doesn't need a pumped engine (most of Joe's designs don't)
Truthfully, there isn't an airplane out there that does...

If you install the tank on the CG, you'll have a ball getting the gear into the model.
I have already drawn out the set up. It seems I'll be good so far.

I'd keep the retracts for a different model.
Cool.

Thanks for directing me to the web site. I had forgtten about it. I look forward to seeing the aricle on the Super Kaos showing the retract installation.

Brian

edit- The article link on the site no longer works. [&o]
Old 12-29-2010, 10:08 AM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

ORIGINAL: Ilikebipes

ORIGINAL: Bax


ORIGINAL: NM2K

While I have seen a few Super Kaos models with retractable landing gear, I'm not convinced that Mr. Bridi designed this model to incorporate retracts, in spite of the marketing hype saying that it was. You all know how marketing types are...(smile)

As far as I know, Joe is still alive and kicking. It would be nice if he would comment on this topic.


Ed Cregger
Actually, the Super Kaos was fully-intended to accomodate retractable landing gear. The RCM article had pictures of Joe Bridi holding the model and showing off the retracts. The article also described his resoning behind the design of the airplane, and how it differed from the Kaos. Retracts were part of it.


So...

Now I have to ask.. Anyone have a copy of this article on pdf they could send me or set up on www.4share.com ?

Also, this thread has become very helpful and I want to thank everyone that is pitching in here.

Brian


Just to play the Devil's advocate - If you had a new kit that wasn't selling well because it was a generation behind the kits that were actually designed to utilize retracts and tuned pipes, without resorting to cutting the center section of the wing, wouldn't you do an impromptu modification to try to convince folks that it really was the latest and the greatest in pattern designs? IIRC, to further muddy the picture, the Super Kaos was in competition with its newer, next generation brethren, the Dirty Birdy from the same manufacturer at the same time.

I remember the RCM article on the Super Kaos. To me it was just a PR effort to move the SK kits, even then. The SK really offered nothing to the aspiring pattern pilot as it was the same-old-same-old Kaos with a minimum of updates. The Kaos was great for its day, but its day was very short as pattern technology was moving very quickly back then. I have a kit of the SK that I would gladly trade for a Bridi Kaos, Top Flite Taurus or an Orion. If I'm going to build another Kaos, it will be the original Kaos. It is one of my favorite models. I'm not sure at the moment whether my Super Kaos kit is a Bridi or otherwise.


Ed Cregger
Old 12-29-2010, 10:11 AM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

Retracts in the Super Kaos...

Why is it such an issue?

Brian
Old 12-29-2010, 10:39 AM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build


ORIGINAL: Ilikebipes

I feel you may be over working this one. It's a simple model, keep it simple and it'll be fun. Over engineer it and you'll be sorting things out til the cows come home.
Quite frankly, I knew this comment would arise as it is an early airplane. But I will not be happy unless I get through this. I overthink everything. It is who I am... Remember my OCD comment? Many an airplane I could not finish as I was unhappy with my results.
Brian,

actually that was the reason why I made the comment. My feeling is that you have chosen the wrong model to overthink things. There's nothing to the Kaos and the SK - it's a box fuse with an over thick wing and a flat stab. 40 years ago there was plenty to engineer and sort out with a model like this but nowadays, it's done. The thing flies and does so well. It is a great sport model for good fun.

This model doesn't need a pumped engine (most of Joe's designs don't)
Truthfully, there isn't an airplane out there that does...
Not so - many installations, particularly in glass fuses with inverted installation benefit greatly from a pumped engine. It's not a performance issue, it's an equipment layout issue. Take an LA-1 or a Desire or even the Aurora. Inverted engine installlations in pattern planes can be quite a headache when using non pumped engines. Not to mention if the model is designed with the tank located quite far aft due to pipe inteference or some such (e.g., the Desire).

If you install the tank on the CG, you'll have a ball getting the gear into the model.
I have already drawn out the set up. It seems I'll be good so far.
Glad to hear. Have you considered CG issues? A 10-12 oz tank weighs a few ounces empty and can have an effect on how the model will balance. Perhaps you plan to put the battery pack up front.

I'd keep the retracts for a different model.
Cool.

Thanks for directing me to the web site. I had forgtten about it. I look forward to seeing the aricle on the Super Kaos showing the retract installation.

Brian

edit- The article link on the site no longer works. [&o]
Attached is the SK Article. Enjoy!

David.

P.S. Sorry, RCU is still broken on upload. I'll post it elsewhere and direct you to it.
Old 12-29-2010, 10:59 AM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

Here are the two RCM Articles:

Super Kaos 60:

http://www.4shared.com/document/anCO...articlesm.html

Super Kaos 40:

http://www.4shared.com/document/AFH-...ticle0419.html

Enjoy, David.
Old 12-30-2010, 10:56 AM
  #23  
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

Thanks David.

I have to say that even though this is a simple airplane, I stll think it is worth effort and craftsmanship. It looks very good with retracts.

I am thinking about powerplants. I want at least the performance in the you tube link below. He has his piped with an OS. Personally, I hate OS and will never use one. Good engine, but a major rip-off when comparing it to magnum. Hence the pump, HB 61 PDP, and muffled tuned quiet pipe from MACS. I already have the equipment.

Brian

[link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLX8pkz6GC4[/link]
Old 12-30-2010, 11:56 PM
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

I've built a lot of Kaos', regular and Super, with and without retracts. My favorite is the regular with fixed gear, because it maintains a more constant speed on downlines with the extra drag. And because there is nothing like doing a whole bunch of endless touch and goes with a Kaos as it is the most fun airplane to land. To put retracts in, is simple, as you cut the notch in the front of the wing between the dowels, line with some balsa and then fiberglass. On the SK you then add the belly pan, also with a notch, and fill with balsa. An arched doubler on the former in front of the wing allows the gear to come up and adds a lot of rigidity to the fuselage as well. If you use a modern engine, or a large tank you will need a pumped motor as the Kaos series were designed back when we flew engines with small venturis and 12 oz tanks, and fuel draw was not an issue. Modern engines get a lot of their power from the larger venturis which reduce the fuel draw ability. They also necessitate a larger tank due to increased fuel consumption which lowers the centerline of the tank from an already low position. Even a Tetra bubbleless 16oz tank won't work on a OS with a D carb. It is one of the reasons that the OS engines of the era came with carb inserts. They will just barely work if you get a 12 oz (or a Kraft 13oz) tank and push it all the way up against the top block. The HB you mentioned should work fine with its pump and Perry carb though. One minor adjustment to the airplane I would highly reccommend is to increase the fuselage depth by 1/2" as it makes the knife edge and tracking better, eliminates the tail waggle, and nobody will ever notice the deviation.
I let lots of guys fly mine and they are all amazed at what an amazing airplane the Kaos is. This is my 11th and has the 1/2" deeper fuse, a faired-in wing underside, wider ailerons, and the firewall moved back by 3/8" to allow for the bigger engines we now use. Good luck and enjoy the build!
Scott
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Old 12-31-2010, 07:45 AM
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NM2K
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Default RE: Bridi Super Kaos Build

Wow, you have taken building/flying/modifying The Kaos to an art form.

Like you, I too replace the stock ailerons on virtually all of the old pattern ships with larger chord ailerons. Those narrow/skinny things on the original designs are holdovers from the reed equipment days and the days of servos with poor resolution.

Yes, an extra 1/2" in height would be very useful.

Fine job, smacfe.


Ed Cregger

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