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O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

Old 05-09-2013, 11:11 AM
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bandit_av
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Default O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

I want to share genuine dilemma I'm in it right now ...
We were fortunate, and these days we got two 0.61 top-level engine the YS, and the Nova rossi.
I was impressed with both the engines and the impressive results shown by test engines.
Both of the engines, turning 11x9 prop at around 14000 rpm... this was a wet dream to turn 11x7 3/4 prop with Rossi 61.
I was interested to see your opinions, even though I know that in most cases are quite biased opinion,
would be nice to see and understand your thoughts about who is preferred and why.
My experience is most ROSSI engine from 30 years ago, so my tendency now is for NovaRossi, plus I do not have the knowledge
or confidence that YS will continue to produce the amazing engine they decided to produce.
In addition to the NovaRossi Combo will be cheaper in the financial sense.
A very significant factor is the weight differences when YS weighs less than NR and looks appears somewhat stronger.
Very big dilemma

Thank You
Avi.

VERY IMPORTANT!!!
My intention is to not! open any war or nothing else beside a discussion!!!
Old 05-09-2013, 12:26 PM
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LS171Malibu
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

I imagine it is unlikely to do any more than speculate, with the fact that less than a handful of pilots have had the opportunity to compare them- much less put much run time on them.

I have owned a long stroke YS, a 61 AR. It was a very strong engine, though piped and propped to turn about 10k or so (APC 12x12).
Old 05-09-2013, 03:29 PM
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Huang
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

Just looking at the technical specs of the engines for the differences:

- YS has a pressurized system so it will work great in inverted (actually in any) configuration
- NR is significantly heavier. At 620g it is about 100g heavier than the YS.
- NR has an option for in-flight needle valve
- YS will cost 2x or more than the NR, and supposedly a limited run edition of 100. May or may not continue to be a production engine.

Other minor differences
- Different exhaust setups, NR uses the round Rossi setup that you can rotate the header to the offset angle that you want, YS uses fixed two bolt mounting
- NR has options for 9 or 10mm carbs, combo with their header and pipe (although, it appears that their pipe is slightly restrictive based on an earlier test), and a ceramic bearing option
- NR is technically undersquare (long stroke): bore 23mm stroke 24mm , though it seems to hit high rpms just fine.
- YS is a short-stroke of bore 24mm stroke 22mm.

Both seem to have great distributor/vendor support. I think we just get one of each and compare ourselves!

Matt
Old 05-09-2013, 03:38 PM
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Jim Oliver
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

The benefit of the YS is the pressurized fuel system-the negative of the YS is the pressurized fuel system

Jim
Old 05-09-2013, 04:05 PM
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Jim Johns
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...


ORIGINAL: Jim Oliver

The benefit of the YS is the pressurized fuel system-the negative of the YS is the pressurized fuel system

Jim
First time I've ever heard it called a negative.

Old 05-10-2013, 05:07 AM
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Jim Oliver
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

Jim,
I didn't necessarily mean that comment as a jab at the YS engines, but the YS fuel system does require a higher level of attention to detail with respect to fuel cleanliness and fuel line connection security and tank integrity than non-pressurized systems.

The YS system should solve the problems associated with the high tank placement of the P7 arf, and that's a good thing......

Jim
Old 05-10-2013, 06:27 AM
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NM2K
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

YS engines do demand that a price be paid by the operator. This is not to say that their performance is not worth the price for flawless operation. Some model configurations really leave you little to no choice. It's either u.se a YS engine, or other pressurized/regulated fuel delivery system, or suffer the consequences.


Ed Cregger
Old 05-10-2013, 03:03 PM
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Huang
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

Personally if I were to choose between these two engines it would really be up to the particular aircraft more than anything else.

If it's an inverted setup like the Aurora or Atlanta, or where a pressurized system is desired then I would just go with the YS. If it's an upright configuration like the Arrow, T2A, Escape and such, and if I'm able to move some of the equipment back to CG correctly, I'd use the NR. Finally if cost was a major factor, then it's the NR.

I've never thought the pressurized system was a negative. I love the consistency of the fuel delivery regardless of the attitude, fuel level, tank location, etc, etc. Most YS users know once they set it they almost never touch it again for the season. YS is different, but not undesired in any way for me.

I used the YS-60 in the P7 too, zero tank location problems and it's actually easier for me than anything else. So all positive for me on that front. I've had to move the receiver pack to inside the fuse behind the wing to CG correctly with the YS, so I'm not sure how I would CG it for the heavier NR. Many of the classics were designed for engines 450~500g range and most that I've built came out slightly nose heavy with tricycle retracts. So the extra weight for the NR becomes a consideration. Definitely could be done but simpler to use the YS in this instance.

So for me it depends more on the particular model.
Matt




Old 05-10-2013, 06:31 PM
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

For those that have run pumped engines or pressurized fuel systems before it's a different animal than for those of us that have never run them.
I think Brian, I know myself, and few other people on the Classic boards have never had an opportunity to run a YS before now so Jim's reference may have been in that direction, although I believe he is an old hand at them.
Chris... 
Old 05-10-2013, 07:08 PM
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EscapeFlyer
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

Hmmm... I haven't experienced them either. If I could, I would jump on one though. I'd love to run one in an Aurora, or a Beetle, or an EU-1A someday.

Brian
Old 05-11-2013, 07:04 AM
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

I am finishing a Fun Key Phoenix 60. A YS 60 'RE would be the perfect choice because of the pipe channel, but I'm afraid that SPA does not allow pipes!!
Such a nice bird. I may just have to put the YS .60 and buy an ARF for SPA events.
Old 05-11-2013, 01:10 PM
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bandit_av
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

Hi
It is nice to see and read your inputs, they are very helpful to think and to come to a decision.

To be honest, I thought not conclusive regarding what is better and what is the right choice,
probably there will not be such a result or such a thought, and each will have to figure out what's good for him,
because both are excellent choices.

My choice would be probably the NOVAROSSI, because my experience with ROSSI engines for more than 30 years,
and I think these engines are similar.
I think, in many ways, ys engines the characteristics and the outperform are better than NR engines, such as for example the difference in weight,
but you can not take the fact that NR engine simplifying the YS engines compared, and the people who never worked with YS ever,
this fact is very important.

But still would be nice to see a more inputs and share more thoughts, because that how it looks to the future, these engines will be at the top in the near future.


BR
Avi
Old 05-11-2013, 08:50 PM
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Atlanta 60
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

I'm awfully excited to see Nova/Rossi and YS offering engines for this market!! It's awesome!! I think both will be solid performers and have their place in the Classic Pattern community...

I'm probably the "other guy"...I've had very little experience with anything other than YS engines. I have run YS engines since I started flying RC in the 80's. The second engine I ever purchased was a YS-45 and never looked back...

My experience with YS has been very positive...I have lots of flight time on the YS-45, YS-63FZ, YS-91AC and YS-120SC...I also currently own several YS-60's, YS-61LS's, YS-61AR's and a YS-1.60DZ...I have no real flight time with any of those engines as they are sitting on the shelve waiting for planes to be built...

I like running the YS's because of their rock solid performance and reliability...I love the pressurized fuel system and have become "dependent" on it because I always mount my fuel tanks on the CG...

I've heard YS engines referred to as "temperamental" in the past...Although that has not been my experience I can see folks feeling that way...I do believe you have to "learn" how to operate YS's, but once you understand them it will be worth it...I think YS engines have evolved over the years and are now more user friendly than ever...I'm sure this new YS-60 will be a winner!!

I have my list of "rules" that I established with my first YS-45 and strictly follow that today and I'm a happy YS operator:

1) Don't touch the regulator screw!!
2) Use good fuel (PowerMaster YS 20/20)
3) keep the high speed needle on the rich side
4) No petroleum based products...period (After run oils ect...)
5) Release tank pressure after flight (remember which hose is the "vent" unless you like the taste of nitro methane!!)
6) Don't touch the regulator screw!!

Basically every one of my YS engines have been "set it and forget it" type of engines...I never touch anything...I start the engine and let it idle for 20-30 seconds, remove the ignitor and slowly run it up to full throttle once or twice then she's ready to taxi...Run it up once more before taking the active, then go flyin'!!

I do take special care setting up the fuel system while building the plane...I'll only use good quality fuel tanks designed to take the pressure...I also wrap the tank with fiber reinforced packing tape or good quality duct tape...The tank will expand when pressurized!! It's important the fuel system is leak free...

In recent years I've acquired some OS RF-P engines and like them a lot!! Until acquiring the OS's I think I may have owned a grand total of 3 engines over the years that weren't YS....So I guess you can say I'm a YS believer...

I hope both the Nova/Rossi and YS engines do well and people get lots of enjoyment out of whichever engine they choose for their project!! They are all fantastic looking engines!!

Have Fun...

Chuck
Old 05-12-2013, 04:11 AM
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

Matt,

I like the way you made your comparisons between the two engines. It's more up the user likes and maybe aircraft configuration that will determine which engine they will buy/use. As for the weight difference of the two engine, I've looked everywhere to find the weight of the new YS but could not find it anywhere. I take you word that the Rossi is a 100g more than the YS, but like with most things there's always a workaround to offset that extra 100g to balance an aircraft. You just have to plan ahead during construction of the aircraft. Even if you should have to add extra weight to the tail, I don't believe your 70s/early 80s pattern plane will ever notice it due to the output power of the Novarossi engine.

I have this question also. In order for YS to do the limited run of 100 engines wasn't there suppose to be a confirmed 100 buyers? If this is the case then "technically" there are no YS engines available to buy, at this time. If you want one of these engines and are not one of the first 100 buyers, a person will have to wait until the engine is available and the shakeout of the guys who changed their minds, wait until one of the 100 comes up for sell, or YS makes more than 100 engines, before you could get one. So if the above is correct and correct me if I'm wrong, then you would have to add availability (at this time) to you list of comparisons. You could also add YS support group for the guys who no experience with the operation of YS engines. There are hundreds of YS lovers online that would gladly help them with any problems they may have.

As for me, I'm the most bang for your dollar type. Being that both engines can produce about the same rpm's on the same size prop I went with the Rossi with the 10mm carb and header. I have a couple of Perry pumps and pump carbs that I can put to use (play with) if needed. Also the Perry pump carb falls in the middle (9.5mm) of the 9 and 10mm Rossi carb. There are a couple of other things that made me go with the Novarossi but I won't get into that at this time.
Old 05-12-2013, 04:21 AM
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

I'll have to agree with everything Chuck said, especially Rules 1 and 6.....................LOL ! ! ! Hey Chuck, I think you need to try one of these new Novarossi's. They now have the Speed 13 with a black case that will knock your socks off.................

Hey Ron, What are you going to put your purple headed beast in?

Take care,
David
Old 05-12-2013, 04:38 AM
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...


ORIGINAL: Atlanta 60

I'm awfully excited to see Nova/Rossi and YS offering engines for this market!! It's awesome!! I think both will be solid performers and have their place in the Classic Pattern community...

I'm probably the "other guy"...I've had very little experience with anything other than YS engines. I have run YS engines since I started flying RC in the 80's. The second engine I ever purchased was a YS-45 and never looked back...

My experience with YS has been very positive...I have lots of flight time on the YS-45, YS-63FZ, YS-91AC and YS-120SC...I also currently own several YS-60's, YS-61LS's, YS-61AR's and a YS-1.60DZ...I have no real flight time with any of those engines as they are sitting on the shelve waiting for planes to be built...

I like running the YS's because of their rock solid performance and reliability...I love the pressurized fuel system and have become "dependent" on it because I always mount my fuel tanks on the CG...

I've heard YS engines referred to as "temperamental" in the past...Although that has not been my experience I can see folks feeling that way...I do believe you have to "learn" how to operate YS's, but once you understand them it will be worth it...I think YS engines have evolved over the years and are now more user friendly than ever...I'm sure this new YS-60 will be a winner!!

I have my list of "rules" that I established with my first YS-45 and strictly follow that today and I'm a happy YS operator:

1) Don't touch the regulator screw!!
2) Use good fuel (PowerMaster YS 20/20)
3) keep the high speed needle on the rich side
4) No petroleum based products...period (After run oils ect...)
5) Release tank pressure after flight (remember which hose is the "vent" unless you like the taste of nitro methane!!)
6) Don't touch the regulator screw!!

Basically every one of my YS engines have been "set it and forget it" type of engines...I never touch anything...I start the engine and let it idle for 20-30 seconds, remove the ignitor and slowly run it up to full throttle once or twice then she's ready to taxi...Run it up once more before taking the active, then go flyin'!!

I do take special care setting up the fuel system while building the plane...I'll only use good quality fuel tanks designed to take the pressure...I also wrap the tank with fiber reinforced packing tape or good quality duct tape...The tank will expand when pressurized!! It's important then fuel system is leak free...

In recent years I've acquired some OS RF-P engines and like them a lot!! Until acquiring the OS's I think I may have owned a grand total of 3 engines over the years that weren't YS....So I guess you can say I'm a YS believer...

I hope both the Nova/Rossi and YS engines do well and people get lots of enjoyment out of whichever engine they choose for their project!! They are all fantastic looking engines!!

Have Fun...

Chuck
Chuck,

You have been one of the lucky ones. If you have never experienced a YS regulator gone bad, I hope you never do.

When regulators go in the pressurized system, the 4 strokes die very very hard. Such was the case with my 140L. New engine and new plane, in a rush to get flying, I didn't bother to bench test. Bad move. It took out the whole front end of my brand new Alliance when it died lean.

On the other hand, I had two 60RE short strokes that ran as well asmy gasoline engines do today (great). Incredible idles and mid ranges.....like they were running on ignition
Old 05-12-2013, 10:14 AM
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EscapeFlyer
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

It is SO nice to have high quality, desirable options!

Brian
Old 05-13-2013, 06:21 AM
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

Hi guys,
A few responses here:
Ron: the 100 engine minimum was a factory request (they wouldn't make fewer than 100 engines). The actual number of engines originally spoken for - 'the list' was only about 70, but that was enough to convince Rich Verano (USA importer for YS) the there was enough demand.
Matt: yes a diaphragm failure in any YS 4-stroke or pretty much any other part was 'unhealthy' and expensive. Not so for 2-strokes and far fewer 'opportunities' for mechanical failure as well (I don't want to scare anybody away from YS 2-strokes).
Chuck: great advice. I would add one more item - FILTER, FILTER, FILTER - any particulate in the fuel system will cause problems.

A few general comments. First, YS has always tried to provide to most powerful pattern engine available. They will continue to 'refine' existing production engines which means that the the first version off the assembly line is usually a little or even a lot different from the last one. YS makes changes, but doesn't always (ever?) relate that information to their distributors[>:]. So the consumer is often field testing for YS. I bought 2 .60FRs in 1980 one in July and one in December and the needles were different, for example.
The New YS short strokes will probably not enjoy dynamic changes, even if YS produces more than the original 100 promised. The prototype underwent a few revisions at Rich Verano's request because he wanted this engine to be very successful. Lastly, if you want to read about recent YS two-strokes go to the helicopter forums. They have been running them hard for many years and I'm sure the new aircraft engine will benefit from that experience.
- Will
Old 05-13-2013, 08:44 AM
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MTK
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

Personally, I hope YS comes out with a 2 stroke Pattern engine that burns gasoline. I can only hope that they are already experimenting with their fuel delivery system and gasoline. I don't care about displacement, it could be a.60,1.00 or 2.00 c.inch2 stroke. Of course prefer RE and RI. AND lightweight of course
Old 05-13-2013, 11:54 PM
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

Will,

Thanks for clearing up YS order info. I read about the factory being willing to make 100 engines so I assumed there would have to be 100 buyers, as it was done with the Hanno/YS piston and cylinder deal. As for the YS engine, I'm sure that Rich Verano and the YS factory are putting in a lot of effort to produce one of the best new engines possible just for us classic pattern guys. I know a lot of guys have been waiting but as someone said, the new YS engine should be worth the wait. It should be just as impressive as the Novarossi speed 13. If YS doesn't make more than 100 engines, this new one is going to be one of those must have engines for YS fans. I feel that the Novarossi speed 13 is one of those must have engines also. I wonder if OS has taken notice and plan to bring back a 61 pattern engine?

Sure would be nice if you could do a side by side YS/Novarossi shootout, real soon. [X(]

Ron
Old 05-14-2013, 01:07 AM
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

ORIGINAL: hrrcflyer

I'll have to agree with everything Chuck said, especially Rules 1 and 6.....................LOL ! ! ! Hey Chuck, I think you need to try one of these new Novarossi's. They now have the Speed 13 with a black case that will knock your socks off.................

Hey Ron, What are you going to put your purple headed beast in?

Take care,
David

David,

It's going to be a while before I get to use the beast. I still had some moving around to do but if I was/could do it now (just because of power of this engine) I believe I'd first go with a balsa fuse kit. Escape, Great Escape, Deception, Sapphire ll, Super Lighting, or a Cosmos. The Cosmos is half complete so I would probably go with that one. If I did go with a fiberglass kit then it would have to be the Brushfire for sure or an EU-1 (which I've run out of time to get). But for pure speed it would have to be a Tiporare or possibly a Dirty Birdy. Those are my picks as of now.

Ron
Old 05-14-2013, 09:07 AM
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lfinney
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

OS has the rx series heli motor, with a sx airplane head you would have a very strong OS pattern motor, I own number of them and they run hard with zero issues so far, they also have the sz rz 91 heli motor which is rear exhaust as well and is in the sx case.
Old 05-14-2013, 03:55 PM
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

Is the crankshaft long enough in the heli engines to thread a spinner (tru-turn) and prop on it?
Old 05-14-2013, 05:53 PM
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

yes usually, the sx 61-91 series heli engine use three different cranks one is 1/4-28. and the other two use standard diameter .60 size types one of them is extra long for eurocopters, I can post dimensions tomorrow if any one would be interested
Old 05-14-2013, 06:22 PM
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Default RE: O.K guys, lets talk about engines...

Lorin,

Is OS still selling these engines? I didn't see them on Tower.

David

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