Kaos .60 vs DIrty Birdy .60
09-14-2013, 06:15 PM
#1
Moderator
Thread Starter
Kaos .60 vs DIrty Birdy .60
I normally hate versus threads, and maybe wind up hating this one too. But I'm planning to build an SPA plane and I want to do it the best I can. I've been flying a Tower Kaos and want to go up to a .60 size plane. I am not looking for you guys to tell me which one to build, but rather I'm curious about the flying differences between the two planes. Looking at the Bridi planes website, I see that the weight estimate is lower for the Kaos and it has a touch more wing area, but a shorter span. The fuselage design of the DB looks like it would knife edge a little better, and the wing sweep looks like it would be a little better in gusty wind. Am I right? I'd love to hear from anyone who has flown both of these planes to get an idea of what to expect. I will be setting the plane up for SPA rules, so I won't be using retracts or a pipe.
09-14-2013, 07:45 PM
#2
My Feedback: (3)
Yes, I have flown both the Kaos and the Dirty Birdy. You are right, the Dirty Birdy has better Knife Edge performance than the Kaos but the differences go way past KE.
Being a later design, the DB refines the performance of the Kaos to include the ever expanding requirements of pattern flying. KE was just coming into the sequence so the fuselage depth was increased. Don't leave the canopy off as many people used to do with the Kaos, it's important to the side area! While the Kaos will fly KE, it won't hold altitude. The DB will hold altitude in a very long KE clear across the field. Nothing like today's pattern planes that will KE loop but far superior to the Kaos.
The DB has a thinned down airfoil, lengthened tail and airfoiled stab. All this combines into a faster, super smooth, slippery airplane. It's much quicker than a Kaos. It is also much slower to slow down. It will slow to a crawl for a landing but you've got to give it time. You need to chop throttle directly in front of you on the downwind leg while down low and make a long approach in order to land nice and slow. Not a problem, just be aware that you can't dive for the runway and expect it to land. Dive for the runway and it'll go sailing past you.
The DB is awesome in snap/spin maneuvers. It is one of my two favorite snap roll airplanes. Using the "accelerated snap" procedure as described in the 1st US RC Flight School book "Advanced Aerobatics" I can hit a 5 turn snap and still pull out in level flight. It happens so fast that most people can't count the snaps. I have an advantage, I know it's coming!
Wind? The DB punches through most anything. Of course, you'll have to adjust on landing and in a crosswind knowing how to fly with rudder is always a lus.
Both of my DB's have been built up from balsa kits. But I have recently flown the DB ARF. As much as it pains me to say so, this might be even better than the one I spent a couple of months building. It was significantly faster but it also had a modern engine with tuned pipe while mine had a very old Magnum. Nothing against the Magnum, it runs great, it just isn't the hottest iron in the fire being about 30 years old. (But can you beat a price of FREE???)
Definitely, the DB is a far superior airplane to the Kaos. I love the Kaos, it's a great sport plane and I recommend it frequently. But for more pattern performance the DB is the way to go.
I'm currently building a Great Escape and can't wait to see the improvement over the DB.
Dave
Being a later design, the DB refines the performance of the Kaos to include the ever expanding requirements of pattern flying. KE was just coming into the sequence so the fuselage depth was increased. Don't leave the canopy off as many people used to do with the Kaos, it's important to the side area! While the Kaos will fly KE, it won't hold altitude. The DB will hold altitude in a very long KE clear across the field. Nothing like today's pattern planes that will KE loop but far superior to the Kaos.
The DB has a thinned down airfoil, lengthened tail and airfoiled stab. All this combines into a faster, super smooth, slippery airplane. It's much quicker than a Kaos. It is also much slower to slow down. It will slow to a crawl for a landing but you've got to give it time. You need to chop throttle directly in front of you on the downwind leg while down low and make a long approach in order to land nice and slow. Not a problem, just be aware that you can't dive for the runway and expect it to land. Dive for the runway and it'll go sailing past you.
The DB is awesome in snap/spin maneuvers. It is one of my two favorite snap roll airplanes. Using the "accelerated snap" procedure as described in the 1st US RC Flight School book "Advanced Aerobatics" I can hit a 5 turn snap and still pull out in level flight. It happens so fast that most people can't count the snaps. I have an advantage, I know it's coming!
Wind? The DB punches through most anything. Of course, you'll have to adjust on landing and in a crosswind knowing how to fly with rudder is always a lus.
Both of my DB's have been built up from balsa kits. But I have recently flown the DB ARF. As much as it pains me to say so, this might be even better than the one I spent a couple of months building. It was significantly faster but it also had a modern engine with tuned pipe while mine had a very old Magnum. Nothing against the Magnum, it runs great, it just isn't the hottest iron in the fire being about 30 years old. (But can you beat a price of FREE???)
Definitely, the DB is a far superior airplane to the Kaos. I love the Kaos, it's a great sport plane and I recommend it frequently. But for more pattern performance the DB is the way to go.
I'm currently building a Great Escape and can't wait to see the improvement over the DB.
Dave
Last edited by dbacque; 09-14-2013 at 07:54 PM.
09-14-2013, 07:45 PM
#3
Jester, I flew a Kaos in my first pattern competition and it flew great, but then I moved to sportsman class and flew a Dirty Birdi when they first came out on the market. The DB was a much better plane. The added weight seemed to make it easy to land, where as the Kaos want to drift.
Between the two I would go with the DB. However, if I had another choice it would be the UFO in the Bridi line.
Right now I am working on a Vertigo. Timthetoolman (Tim Reed) is doing a great job of providing these short kits.
Frank
Between the two I would go with the DB. However, if I had another choice it would be the UFO in the Bridi line.
Right now I am working on a Vertigo. Timthetoolman (Tim Reed) is doing a great job of providing these short kits.
Frank
09-14-2013, 08:20 PM
#4
We will be at Thunderbirds tomorrow at noon and we can talk more if you'd like to come out. We are having a meeting on the upcoming TB SPA Open event.
I don't have direct advice but I have similar experiences.
Straight out of the box the DB will fly better but in my case the Super Kaos made a huge improvement when it was tuned for pattern. I've flown Dirty Birdy's during their maiden and even without proper set up they flew much better than the S. Kaos I had been flying even when it was tuned up. I only flew the Kaos once and I thought the Super Kaos was a better plane. Tuning refers to the controls, balance, thrust line and so on. It makes a HUGE difference in what you'll be able to do.
The Kaos can do almost as well as the other planes but you have to be a very exceptional pilot to make it do what you want but the same pilot can fly the DB cleaner. The Dirty Birdy is much easier to fly pattern so it takes less effort. I can make a perfect circle (sometimes) with the S. Kaos but it takes a lot more work. With the right engine on the DB you can just steer it in the right direction with occasional rudder adjustments.
I'm a firm believer in power to weight for the SPA guys. We are restricted so you need the best engine combo you can get. The OS 55 with the Jett exhaust has loads of power, burns a lot of fuel, difficult to tune right for some, is really light. The OS 65 is heavier but it does OK on the stock exhaust for planes at 7.25 lbs or less. The OS 95 FS and NovaRossi 60CR are pigs in the weight department but I've seen the OS pull some heavy planes and I've heard good things about the NR but I haven't ran mine yet.
Once you pipe an engine it's not an issue but as you said we are confined so engine choice is important. On the S Kaos at 7 lb 4 oz the Thunder Tiger .60 will make you work hard on the top of most maneuvers but put the Jett exhaust on it and it is much easier to do.
I don't have direct advice but I have similar experiences.
Straight out of the box the DB will fly better but in my case the Super Kaos made a huge improvement when it was tuned for pattern. I've flown Dirty Birdy's during their maiden and even without proper set up they flew much better than the S. Kaos I had been flying even when it was tuned up. I only flew the Kaos once and I thought the Super Kaos was a better plane. Tuning refers to the controls, balance, thrust line and so on. It makes a HUGE difference in what you'll be able to do.
The Kaos can do almost as well as the other planes but you have to be a very exceptional pilot to make it do what you want but the same pilot can fly the DB cleaner. The Dirty Birdy is much easier to fly pattern so it takes less effort. I can make a perfect circle (sometimes) with the S. Kaos but it takes a lot more work. With the right engine on the DB you can just steer it in the right direction with occasional rudder adjustments.
I'm a firm believer in power to weight for the SPA guys. We are restricted so you need the best engine combo you can get. The OS 55 with the Jett exhaust has loads of power, burns a lot of fuel, difficult to tune right for some, is really light. The OS 65 is heavier but it does OK on the stock exhaust for planes at 7.25 lbs or less. The OS 95 FS and NovaRossi 60CR are pigs in the weight department but I've seen the OS pull some heavy planes and I've heard good things about the NR but I haven't ran mine yet.
Once you pipe an engine it's not an issue but as you said we are confined so engine choice is important. On the S Kaos at 7 lb 4 oz the Thunder Tiger .60 will make you work hard on the top of most maneuvers but put the Jett exhaust on it and it is much easier to do.
Last edited by Timthetoolman1; 09-14-2013 at 08:25 PM.
09-15-2013, 07:18 PM
#5
Moderator
Thread Starter
So it sounds like I need to get the Dirty Birdy. I plan to be at the third match. I flew the last one and had meant to fly at wings before I dorked the Kaos. I'm going to fix the Kaos and have it ready for the match, and probably spend the winter upgrading.
Tim, you mentioned the OS and TT engines. I've been a TT fan for a while now, but would a guy be giving up much with the TT .61 versus the OS .65?
Tim, you mentioned the OS and TT engines. I've been a TT fan for a while now, but would a guy be giving up much with the TT .61 versus the OS .65?
09-15-2013, 07:43 PM
#6
I love my TT Pro but it needs a bit more juice. I think it's one of the older OS .61 engines that's been rebranded. However, I used it on a Super Kaos that was 7 lb 4 oz. If you get it below 7 lbs and use a 6 oz tank for Novice or a 10 oz tank for other classes you'll be fine with the stock TT. I flew the Novice with 4 oz on a stock TT with throttle management.
I found the best prop for the TT was the Master Airscrew Scimitar 12x6. I tried APC 12x6 and 11x7 and it had more pull with the Scimitar (the grayish prop that looks like APC). It does flex a bit but it made a difference.
If you were to use an Ultrathrust or Jett exhaust it would have way plenty power for even a 8 lb plane but use at least a 12 oz tank for Novice and a 16 oz for anything above that. But you need to know how to tune them. Some guys can't and blow plugs. Even fat the OS 55 on the Jett runs great.
I found the best prop for the TT was the Master Airscrew Scimitar 12x6. I tried APC 12x6 and 11x7 and it had more pull with the Scimitar (the grayish prop that looks like APC). It does flex a bit but it made a difference.
If you were to use an Ultrathrust or Jett exhaust it would have way plenty power for even a 8 lb plane but use at least a 12 oz tank for Novice and a 16 oz for anything above that. But you need to know how to tune them. Some guys can't and blow plugs. Even fat the OS 55 on the Jett runs great.
09-15-2013, 07:46 PM
#7
The other option would be the OS 55 on the Macs muffler. There is a specific one though that makes a couple hundred RPM more than the stock and it's about an ounce lighter. I think it's the 6720, I'll have to check. I was running my P7 with it but swept wings seem to need more speed.
09-16-2013, 04:02 AM
#8
Moderator
Thread Starter
The high performance mufflers require you to go way rich on the ground right? I've never used one but I heard some of the other guys talking about it once.
09-16-2013, 06:54 AM
#9
Yes, I set mine so that I get a noticeable drop when I tune it on the rich side. Fuel tends to drip off the bottom it's so rich but I've only made the mistake to burn 1 plug by leaning it out too much and fortunately it failed after that flight. Too rich and you're going to run out of fuel.
The Macs is like a stock exhaust though, just tune it normally. It's just lighter and gives a little extra rpm.
The Macs is like a stock exhaust though, just tune it normally. It's just lighter and gives a little extra rpm.
09-16-2013, 05:02 PM
#10
I normally hate versus threads, and maybe wind up hating this one too. But I'm planning to build an SPA plane and I want to do it the best I can. I've been flying a Tower Kaos and want to go up to a .60 size plane. I am not looking for you guys to tell me which one to build, but rather I'm curious about the flying differences between the two planes. Looking at the Bridi planes website, I see that the weight estimate is lower for the Kaos and it has a touch more wing area, but a shorter span. The fuselage design of the DB looks like it would knife edge a little better, and the wing sweep looks like it would be a little better in gusty wind. Am I right? I'd love to hear from anyone who has flown both of these planes to get an idea of what to expect. I will be setting the plane up for SPA rules, so I won't be using retracts or a pipe.
Both were built for war.
Both served in the same conflict (Korea).
Both were superb aircraft.
Both are UBER cool.
Which would you rather dogfight the modern N Korean and Chinese jets with? The F-86 (DB) or the Corsair (SK)?
Brian
11-27-2013, 03:41 PM
#13
I came across this thread tonight and wanted to post something to revive it. It's near and dear to me. I went from a Kadet, to an Ugly Stik, to a Kaos, and flew Dirty Birdies in pattern contests in the late 70's. All great airplanes.
dbacque, aka Dave, hit the nail on the head. He described the Dirty Birdy perfectly. I clearly remember drifting long when I first started flying Dirty Birdies coming from a Kaos. They're not close when comparing performance, knife edge, or going vertical. The Kaos could however, be a good second airplane. Thick, stable airfoil that was beautiful to land. I remember shooting touch and go's for an entire flight, five from the left then five from the right. It had an early Enya 60 that quit only when it ran out of fuel.
My new goal is to build one of each of these 4 planes, covered in silk, and painted as per the prototype. My 9 year old daughter and I just started the Kadet.
Bill
dbacque, aka Dave, hit the nail on the head. He described the Dirty Birdy perfectly. I clearly remember drifting long when I first started flying Dirty Birdies coming from a Kaos. They're not close when comparing performance, knife edge, or going vertical. The Kaos could however, be a good second airplane. Thick, stable airfoil that was beautiful to land. I remember shooting touch and go's for an entire flight, five from the left then five from the right. It had an early Enya 60 that quit only when it ran out of fuel.
My new goal is to build one of each of these 4 planes, covered in silk, and painted as per the prototype. My 9 year old daughter and I just started the Kadet.
Bill
11-27-2013, 09:21 PM
#14
Moderator
Thread Starter
Thanks for the input, flapsdown. I had dinked my Kaos when I started this thread and have since fixed it. I thought it was going to be too messed up to fix, but it turns out it wasn't so bad. So I'm going to keep flying the Kaos this year and probably get my IMAC plane set up for the spring. Thanks for all the tips though, and when I'm ready to step up my SPA game I'll definitely get the Dirty Birdy with a nice hot .60 on the nose.
11-28-2013, 07:23 PM
#16
Moderator
Thread Starter
Not an option in SPA though. I really wish that the CPA types had just established a pipe and retract division in SPA instead of making a competing organization, but that's a topic for another thread.
11-29-2013, 05:44 AM
#18
Moderator
Thread Starter
Lots of guys in the Fwthunderbirds use the Jett mufflers and swear by them. So I'll probably go that route when I upgrade planes. But I fail to see the point of there bring both SPA. and CPA. The events are usually so small it wouldn't be any problem to combine them.
11-29-2013, 01:30 PM
#20
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Hueytown, AL
Posts: 624
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm flying a Dirty Birdy ARF with a R60F Nova Rossi in CPA and SPA !! I leave the gear down and run a Jett muffler in SPA !! When I fly CPA, I change the muffler out and use a Nova Rossi header and pipe !! The airplane has a set of spring air R/T and comes out at 8lbs ! The Nova Rossi has no problem with the gear up or down and I'm very happy with the performance of the airplane and the engine.. This is a very good ARF out of the box.
I built it to fly SPA with Fix Gear but like you said it just beg for R/Ts and a Pipe. Great flying airplane and the faster it is, the better it fly's !!!!
Dave..
I built it to fly SPA with Fix Gear but like you said it just beg for R/Ts and a Pipe. Great flying airplane and the faster it is, the better it fly's !!!!
Dave..
11-29-2013, 07:40 PM
#21
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Center Point, AL
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know you guys are talking about .60 size, but I found this conversation interesting because I just started a short kit DB40 from David Oxilla. You can see I've barely started with the side panels, but you have to start somewhere. I'm wanting to join the CPA and fly it with retracts and a pipe, but I don't know how close events will get to me so I might need to travel some. Haven't decided on an engine yet, but will be going with E-flight gear and other recommended hardware from doxilla. Will Futaba TX hook up with spectrum RX?
Dave
Dave
11-30-2013, 08:04 PM
#23
My Feedback: (3)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Montreal,
QC, CANADA
Posts: 5,200
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
5 Posts
Dave,
good to see you started on the DB40. Please do post pics of your build. You can use the development threads on RCU or RCG or start one of your own if you prefer.
take care to plan and test fit the nose gear and tank up front. It's a busy area. I ended up supporting the 10 oz round tank with a vertical 1/16" plate which is epoxied to the rear of the retract mount rails. If you put the hole for the stopper at the right height it'll sit horizontal with the rear just slightly behind the wing LE former. You can use slit fuel tubing to support the tank in that opening. It just seemed to work out better and was easier to build the nose that way. It gives access to the tank too.
David
good to see you started on the DB40. Please do post pics of your build. You can use the development threads on RCU or RCG or start one of your own if you prefer.
take care to plan and test fit the nose gear and tank up front. It's a busy area. I ended up supporting the 10 oz round tank with a vertical 1/16" plate which is epoxied to the rear of the retract mount rails. If you put the hole for the stopper at the right height it'll sit horizontal with the rear just slightly behind the wing LE former. You can use slit fuel tubing to support the tank in that opening. It just seemed to work out better and was easier to build the nose that way. It gives access to the tank too.
David
12-02-2013, 04:04 PM
#24
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Center Point, AL
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Last edited by soliex; 12-02-2013 at 04:22 PM.
