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Bridi ESCAPE new build. any tricks or tips would be lovely !

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Bridi ESCAPE new build. any tricks or tips would be lovely !

Old 11-03-2015, 03:22 PM
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nappyroots2182
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Default Bridi ESCAPE new build. any tricks or tips would be lovely !

my dad had a escape long time ago. it was awesome but I barely could fly it then. now after 15+ years I found a kit to build. before I get too deep into the build, is there any mods that should be done? I'm going NR 61 rear exhaust and tail dragger retracts. will cover in fabric and paint. ill get some pics once I get more done. thanks guys !

also what about the XLT anhedreal tail? would that benefit my escape any? I'm not going to do any competing but id like to kit bash to make it better if it would do anything for me

Last edited by nappyroots2182; 11-03-2015 at 03:32 PM.
Old 11-03-2015, 03:43 PM
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MTK
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Originally Posted by nappyroots2182 View Post
my dad had a escape long time ago. it was awesome but I barely could fly it then. now after 15+ years I found a kit to build. before I get too deep into the build, is there any mods that should be done? I'm going NR 61 rear exhaust and tail dragger retracts. will cover in fabric and paint. ill get some pics once I get more done. thanks guys !
Build it as light as you know how. That may require substituting some of the heavy wood with contest grade. If I recall, the wing was balsa covered foam and the balsa was 3/32" medium stock. At minimum substitute the balsa sheets with 1/16" contest grade. On the stab too. You will shave a lot of weight right there. Add some 2 ounce glass cloth directly on the balsa side that contacts the foam where the wheel wells are to go, extending a couple inches all around the cutout.

Suggest you substitute the plywood parts with 3/16" a/c grade. No need for the original 1/4" and 3/8" a/c ply

What kind of fabric covering? Let me suggest you use Polyspan Lite. It is very thin, light stock, applied with either clear dope, clear epoxy paint, or clear polycryllic. Shrinks easily with a heat gun. It shouldn't need as much clear paint to get it ready to primer stage. Whatever you use, make it as light as you know how.

It flew well enough when built stock but will fly better a pound lighter. Good luck with your build. FWIW 2U

In IL you may want to reach out to Mike Mueller, Mr. F3A Unlimited.

Last edited by MTK; 11-03-2015 at 03:46 PM.
Old 11-03-2015, 04:02 PM
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nappyroots2182
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I have the fuse sides done and top block on. the vertical fin and rudder I used about half the wood and its still strong. just weighed my wing skins. they are at 8.6oz so debating buying 10 new sheets to save 2 oz but I'm not ruled it out yet. I found prepainted white solartex to weight almost what ultracote does so that's what I was thinking about using as it would already be in my base color. I'm slowing down as I got to get my engine before blocking in the nose
Old 11-03-2015, 05:38 PM
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I would go a step further and use 1/32" non contest on the surfaces with glass or CF in between cores and skins. That'll cut another 40% in weight over 1/16" skins. The BHE supplied 3/32" skins are good to build 25 size classics but will result in lead wings. Not to be touched with a 10 yard pole!

Unfortunately BHE kits came with pretty heavy wood but some good elbow grease might help to alleviate the problem somewhat if already framed up.

David
Old 11-04-2015, 06:45 AM
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Jim Oliver
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I inherited a framed up Escape some years ago---all stock BHE wood and 3/8" firewall, etc. Replaced the firewall with 3/16" A/C ply for the area where the lightened Dave Brown mount would go and used 3/16" balsa above and below that area.

Lot's of heavy sanding on the fuse to get rid of anything that could possibly go and made the vertical stab/rudder of much smaller lighter (same thickness) stock. Eliminated the rudder balance tab and made the sub fin and lower rudder a bit larger.

Since the wing was already sheeted, I used my Dremel with sanding drum to create rib bays in the outer wing panels. Saved about 6 ounces on this alone

Fuse covered with silkspan/Sig dope, the rest with Ultracoat. Finished weight is 7 pounds 12 ounces with Webra Long stroke Rear Exhaust/Mac's flatback pipe, and, I think, Supra mechanical retracts with a small Futaba retract servo mounted in the nose for the nose wheel, JR retract servo in the wing.

So, all that to say "it can be done but you gotta work at it" With good wood as suggested above you should be able to trim several ounces more off

Jim

Last edited by Jim Oliver; 11-04-2015 at 11:47 AM.
Old 11-04-2015, 07:18 AM
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nappyroots2182
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I did build the fin and rudder allot lighter. I thought about opening up the wing some but don't know if I want the open areas to show through the covering. I might go 1/16 wing sheeting and hollow out the foam at least. The fuse is all stock but will get add much sanding as possible.
Old 11-04-2015, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by nappyroots2182 View Post
I thought about opening up the wing some but don't know if I want the open areas to show through the covering. I might go 1/16 wing sheeting and hollow out the foam at least.
Although we haven't yet done the experiment comparing open bay 1/16" sheeted "capped" cores vs 1/32" fully sheeted solid cores, my guess is that the latter is equally light if not lighter, stronger and I'd say less work. In Jim's case, he had no option since the model was framed up but you might be interested in seeing Kevin's Deception build to see how he approached the 1/32" skinning technique. Our standard today is to use 1/16" for skinning but back when the Escape was designed, 3/32" was generally the standard. I suspect that if classics were still being designed at large today, the standard would be 1/32" simply because we have modern materials available. A good example of this is seeing how BVM jets or some F3A 2m fuses are laid up currently. They are essentially stressed skin composite entities consisting of glass/wood/CF with 1/32" balsa used as the breather between the two modern materials. In the case of fuses, the composite skin is supported by CF/end grain balsa/CF formers whereas wings are often supported by a sparse balsa/lite ply internal framework - spars and structural ribs (2-3 of them). For our classics, the foam core plays the analog of the internal structure and provided the composite skin is appropriately laid up (foam/glass|CF/breather/glass/paint), I have little doubt that this approach is stronger and lighter than the more conventional 1/16" balsa and foam core. The main disadvantage I'd say is that it can be a little more costly due to the CF "sparring" required and takes a little more time to "prep" the core with the glass/CF before skinning.

If interested, below is a link to the photo album of Kevin's Deception build using the 1/32" core skin technique. The choice to layup CF on the outside of the skins is his but is not necessary in my opinion provided it is used adequately under the skins. The stressed CF held between the foam and wood makes for a very stiff wing. A standard glass job on the outside of the skins in prep for paint is sufficient. Kevin just happens to be a perfectionist and a master builder so some of his techniques are uniquely suited to his style:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/thumb...one&starter=no

David
Old 11-04-2015, 08:48 AM
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ill look at the thread when I have more time. just trying to keep it simple but lighter then stock without spending a lot more time and money. low on funds right now. but trying to get it framed before winter so I can slow down and detail it out over the winter without being burned out. I havnt done a kit in forever and its hard to find the drive to do it but I cant wait to see it flying. ARFs have runined me but its time to have a real plane ill post pics soon.
Old 11-04-2015, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by nappyroots2182 View Post
ill look at the thread when I have more time. just trying to keep it simple but lighter then stock without spending a lot more time and money. low on funds right now. but trying to get it framed before winter so I can slow down and detail it out over the winter without being burned out. I havnt done a kit in forever and its hard to find the drive to do it but I cant wait to see it flying. ARFs have runined me but its time to have a real plane ill post pics soon.
I concur with David...1/32" standard balsa (non-contest grade) is actually stronger than 1/16" contest grade and has very similar weight, sheet for sheet as the contest grade. I've done some of the lab work on that with an Instron (a test machine for checking material strength) years ago so I know with certainty. No carbon veil under the skin necessary for classic models, except definitely reinforce the cutout areas on the bottom with 2 ounce glass. The cutout areas are the bigger problem with the classics unless proper measures are taken. (I use carbon veil under the skins on the larger 2 meter planes for the torsional stiffness it produces; tensile strength increase is minimal)

If you need pointers on the actual skinning process just ask. The folks that have responded are all highly experienced with the technique and we all can assist in making it as strong and as light as possible. Panels for classics can be built at around 7 ounces each because they are pretty small (<400 squares each). But most of them are actually built much heavier due to poor technique and heavier than necessary materials. The amount of glue used in the skinning is a key variable. It should be about 1 ounce per whole panel, or two ounces tops per whole wing. I use very thin laminating epoxy (EZ Lam, Marine epoxy, US Composites are just a couple epoxies that I use; there are quite a few but these are relatively inexpensive with adequate properties for skins). Others use gorilla foaming PU. And yet others use contact glue. Whatever you use, use the minimal possible but also make sure the skins are in full contact during the cure.

On the fuselage frame up, let me suggest that you use a small block plane to shave some of the weight off first. Then smooth it with sanding starting with 60 grit and ending with 320-400 (60-120-240-320) producing a surface ready to finish. If the thing weighs 25 ounces now, shoot for removing at least 6 ounces and 8 is better.

Good luck. Don't be afraid of the elbow grease. It's terrific stuff...
Old 11-04-2015, 05:06 PM
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Thanks guys. I'm at a plane meeting now. I've skinned wings before but thought about elmers poly glue this time. Going to skin the stab tomorrow to get the feeling back until I get new sheeting for the wing. I tapered the rudder and got a few ounces of the tail. Little at a time. Anyone know what an anhedrail tail does?
Old 11-04-2015, 07:21 PM
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Jim Oliver
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This might be helpful as well.

Jim

http://www.mackrc.net/patternwings2/index.htm
Old 11-05-2015, 04:35 AM
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Last edited by nappyroots2182; 11-05-2015 at 04:44 AM.
Old 11-05-2015, 04:36 AM
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Last edited by nappyroots2182; 11-05-2015 at 04:44 AM.
Old 11-05-2015, 07:48 AM
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Jim Oliver
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Thought you might like this....

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1511439

Weight is actually 7 pounds 12 oz
Old 11-05-2015, 08:22 AM
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I have you pic saved on my phone from when I got my kit. its awesome ! mine will be white and maybe have orange and silver on it. got stab sheeting sanded today. got 0.7ozs off the sheeting from sanding. ill try to get the skins glued today and then move onto cutting in the retracts. wish I had better retracts. I have robart spring air but they have issues coming down and locking. scared eflite electrics will be as junky as the first set I had when they came out. don't know yet
Old 11-05-2015, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by nappyroots2182 View Post
I have you pic saved on my phone from when I got my kit. its awesome ! mine will be white and maybe have orange and silver on it. got stab sheeting sanded today. got 0.7ozs off the sheeting from sanding. ill try to get the skins glued today and then move onto cutting in the retracts. wish I had better retracts. I have robart spring air but they have issues coming down and locking. scared eflite electrics will be as junky as the first set I had when they came out. don't know yet
Eflight electrics are pretty good but the price is in the upper range along with great planes stuff .BTW with 4 motors and 4 escs batterys in it and its 100 inch wing span it still is a hair over 7 pounds so build light guys. joe
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Last edited by joebahl; 11-05-2015 at 11:40 AM.
Old 11-05-2015, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MTK View Post
I concur with David...
Always glad to hear this from a master builder!

1/32" standard balsa (non-contest grade) is actually stronger than 1/16" contest grade and has very similar weight, sheet for sheet as the contest grade.
and this too...

David
Old 11-05-2015, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by nappyroots2182 View Post
I have you pic saved on my phone from when I got my kit. its awesome ! mine will be white and maybe have orange and silver on it. got stab sheeting sanded today. got 0.7ozs off the sheeting from sanding. ill try to get the skins glued today and then move onto cutting in the retracts. wish I had better retracts. I have robart spring air but they have issues coming down and locking. scared eflite electrics will be as junky as the first set I had when they came out. don't know yet
Nice rough in thus far!

I'd go for the Spring Air pneumatics (Robart is a different brand). If your set has problems, send them in for overhaul or simply use them for setup of your cores/nose and then replace them if needed with a new set.

As far as I know, E-Flite 60-120 units are discontinued and ill advised on trike glow powered classics (as already discussed I think). Jetcraft e-tracts out of Europe might be a better all around electric retract set than the E-Flite's.

David
Old 11-05-2015, 01:07 PM
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I use regular balsa just alot less of it and of course Tight Bond glue . joe
Old 11-05-2015, 01:47 PM
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Got the stabs in the saddled with sheeting glued. Used the elmers max foaming glue. Robart never fixed my last landing gear. Terrible support with ok products. I'll see if I can get them to work better. Can't really afford to go crazy on this build. Engine first. I can use theses retracts to mock up. Most brands are fairly close so I can make other brands fit. Like hearing what you guys have to say. I've been watching the weight as I build. I'll get some new sheeting for the wings too. In the tail alone I've saved about 4-5oz
Old 11-05-2015, 01:56 PM
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Old 11-05-2015, 01:56 PM
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Old 11-05-2015, 02:36 PM
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Never tried the Elmers foaming glue but if it does not melt foam i have plenty of uses for it. Your build looks great nappyroots2182 . joe
Old 11-05-2015, 02:53 PM
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It's just like gorilla glue but less foaming. I spread the glue on the wood only, put everything together and in the sandwich for a few minutes with weight on it.... Then pulled ask the wood back off and lightly misted water above the bench and reassembled. This way I could look at the foam and make sure there was plenty of glue transfer. This glue is slow but says it will work on pretty much anything
Old 11-05-2015, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by nappyroots2182 View Post
"SNIP"

also what about the XLT anhedreal tail? would that benefit my escape any? I'm not going to do any competing but id like to kit bash to make it better if it would do anything for me
Don't use anhedral on the stab. It doesn't add anything to the flying and just complicates the set-up during the fitting stages.

Talking fitting, getting the stab exactly at right angles to the fin can be challenging especially during the gluing stage of the stab. Here's how I do it:

I made a large triangle (as wide as the stab and as tall or taller than the fin) out of 1/8" Plexiglas (from home improvement stores). Then scribed several parallel lines to the bottom and one perpendicular line exactly in the middle of the triangle, from the top, through the parallel lines, down to the bottom. Then I drilled several holes on each of the lines. The holes are used to push pins through into the center lines of the fin post and stab TE. The bottom of the triangle sits on the flat bench and is the reference.

The tool bends as much as 1/2" or more to accommodate stab forword placement relative to the fin post. Of course if the stab is a couple inches forward the tool won't help but other than the Cap, all classics and current 2 meter planes are game.

You can't miss the alignment with this simple tool. It allows you the opportunity to triple check stab squareness to the fuse CL and stab incidence. Once you are satisfied with setup, it holds everything in place while the glue cures. Wing is set to the stab and is one of the last things I do in set-up and fitting.

BTW- if anhedral stabs are a must, this tool makes their alignment elementary.

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