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KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO

Old 09-26-2006, 03:10 PM
  #26  
beefcake78
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO

Thanks RFJ. I am having a minor problem getting servos mounted without the aileron servo / pushrods binding against the elevator/rudder pushrods... ARRRRRGGGHHHH!!!

-CaKe
Old 09-26-2006, 05:24 PM
  #27  
RFJ
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO

CaKe,

That was a big problem in some of the older designs. You had three fuselage mounted servos and pushrods, an aileron servo and pushrods, two aileron horns and a wing bolt plate all wanting to occupy the same space! The best solution now is to use two small, powerful aileron servos inset about 1/3 out along each panel. These little beauties were just not available back then and, carefully installed, are hardly noticeable.
Old 09-26-2006, 10:05 PM
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beefcake78
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO

RFJ, you are a wealth of information.

In all seriousness, I will re-think ever buying someone elses model again, or at least re-think doing that over the internet... The vertical tail was cracked (maybe due to shipping), so I peeled some covering off and CA'd it... No problem, but it was still really flimsy... The previous guy had NO WOOD TO WOOD JOINTS aft of the Horizonatal Stab... This meant the last half of the vertical stab was FLOATING... Man, I would never build that way... There was a couple of holes in the wing covering... Now trying to re-engineer the control system. What a PITA!

I really do enjoy building models, but I don't like fixing other peoples mistakes... And I have yet to ARF it...

-CaKe
Old 10-10-2006, 11:24 AM
  #29  
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO

I have a KAOS 40 ARF with an old OS .46SF. I had a .60 kit version a few years ago and was going to build another one until I got the Tower ARF for $65. This is the updated red one and has to be one of the best flying planes around. I get a lot of pilots complimenting it but nobody really cares to own one, that is until they fly one.

I also have an US40 which is a little more sluggish then the KAOS, but both are fun to fly. Very predictable and we are not kidding when we say it will fly where you aim it.

I need to get building on another one since my current KAOS is nearing 5 years old and I fly it the most. Its expiration date is bound to come up soon.

Scott
Old 10-12-2006, 01:44 PM
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Nitro Dew
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO

Guys,

I'm finishing up a tower kaos arf and I'm placing a TT 42 GP on it ... do you think it will have enough power? If not, I believe I'll put a performance pipe on it. I don't necessarily want it to scream, just have respectable speed.
Old 10-12-2006, 02:02 PM
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO

You should be fine with a .42. I've ran mine with a .40SF and didn't really notice much difference between it and the .46 when I ran a smaler prop. the .46 gives me a little more authority.
Old 10-12-2006, 07:46 PM
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO

Thank you ScottRC ... I've had the KAOS on the shelf for a year half built. Last week I guy was flying one at the club, I decided to finish it!
Old 11-04-2006, 08:46 AM
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Stripes
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO

Stupid RCM plans! The leading edge of the rib templates is flat and the two dimensional views show a 3/8 square as the leading edge meaning a notched front edge for the ribs.

The only clue in the write-up is, "Glue the notched leading edge to the ribs."

Not that I can't muddle my way through this but wouldn't you think that while drawing the plans the guy would have looked from one side of the paper to the other. Then again if there were revisions to the plan wouldn't a reasonable person look for consistency with the remainder of the plan.
Old 11-04-2006, 09:01 AM
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO

Perhaps the 3/8" square stock is notched to lock in the ribs? Granted, not the way most of us would do it.
Old 11-04-2006, 09:08 AM
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO

Stripes, I have personally never seen a Bridi design with a square LE set at a 45 degrees angle (but there might be one).

All of the Bridi designs I've built - including the Kaos - use a laminated LE with a "false" or "sub" leading edge.

This was his standard method of wing construction and he used it from the Kaos up through the UFO, after which time he went to foam core wings.

Here is a drawing of how Bridi's wings are almost always built:
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Old 11-04-2006, 04:40 PM
  #36  
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO

I remember the spars, LE, amd TE being notched. Below is a scan of the Super Kaos plans clearly showing a 45 degree LE. Be aware that this is NOT a cross-section thru a rib but rather a section thru the wing at the fuse side, thus no reason to show the hidden notch and flat face on the rib itself. Kapesh?

Late addition..reading the construction article it does mention gluing on the notched spars, LE, and notched TE.

WiNG:
The RCM \~ing Jig is highly recommended to assemble the wing. (See the August 1967 issue of R/C Modeler Magazine Xerox copies of article available.) Using 1/4” steel rods in the holes in the ribs, this jig can give you a true wing in much less time and work than usual construction methods. If you do not use the RCM Wing Jig, use a flat building board and make up small jig blocks. Pin the blocks to the position shown on the plans. Glue the ribs to the spar with the landing gear notch in ribs No. 2 and No. 3 down. Do not glue in the false ribs or the 1/4” dowel. Glue the top spar into position. Glue the notched trailing edge to the ribs and pin to the jig blocks. Glue the notched leading edge to the ribs, let the glue dry before proceeding, then glue the front and rear sheeting in place (the leading edge of the front sheeting is tapered). It is recommended that the forward sheeting be dampened with water Ofl the outside surface only. This will cause the sheeting to curl and conform to the rib


Hope this helps.

Dave Rigotti
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Old 11-26-2006, 08:03 PM
  #37  
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO

Rainedave:
Had to go up in the attic and pull open some plans and kits. The RCM plans for the Kaos, the RCM Trainer, the Super Kaos and the Dirty Birdy show the leading edge as 3/8sq or 1/2 sq set in notches in the ribs at a 45 degree angle. I have a dirty Birdy kit that I will check put I would think that it would match the RCM plans.
Hope this clears up a little.

If you want to see a leading edge that is a little strange the Tiger Tail / Sweetater series from Ron Chidgey and Southern R/C kits just sheet around the leading edge with 1/16 balsa. No solid edge or any reinforcement at all.

BCNU


Mark O
Old 11-26-2006, 11:14 PM
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO

Ok, the Kaos plans I built from were not the RCM plans and are obviously different.

Here are the Sun Fli IV, Dirty Birdy and UFO LE methods. These are from the RCM plans.

It's interesting that he would switch from the vertical sheet LE on the Sun Fli to the 45 degree square LE for the Super Kaos, and then switch back to the vertical sheet LE for the two later designs.

The laminated LE using the sub LE as a shelf for the sheeting is a method I use and now I don't know where I picked it up. At any rate, I feel it's a superior method that results in a neater and stronger LE. It also makes getting a completely gapless seam where the sheeting meets the LE totally foolproof.
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Old 12-06-2006, 03:59 AM
  #39  
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO


ORIGINAL: 8178

Thanks raindav! It is just a standard Tower Kaos 40 kit with a narrowed fuselage, a more rounded top and an enclosed nose on the front. My rule is, build them light and the more power the better. For my flying style, it is imposable to be too fast with a “classic” pattern aircraft. On my next one I’ll lower the engine thrust line a little for a better nose shape.

----------------


Beautiful job, Dave.

The original Bridi Kaos 40 had a 52 or 52.5" wingspan. Is yours larger?

Quite often when someone modifies a proven design, it is usually detrimental. I don't know about the GP Kaos, but GP's folks actually improved the original Bridi designed/made RCM Trainer 40 and 60. I'm hoping they followed through on the GP Kaos 40. Betcha they did.

I found my 52" wingspan original Bridi Super Kaos 40 in the early Eighties. It was powered by a K&B .40 and then later a Super Tigre S.40K. Believe it or not, the K&B .40 powered version was much faster.

I always had the feeling that this model was just a bit too small and that a slightly larger version would fly much better. Keep in mind that my R/C system in those days was a robust Kraft Series 79 set up. I did eventually lose the KPS-14 servos and replaced them with Ace Bantam Midget servos (much lighter and smaller). This did make a noticable difference in performance.

Powered by the K&B .40 with a 9x6 wooden prop (no APC props then), the model was fast, but not quite as fast as the one in the video I just watched in this thread. Back then, speed was good. It let you store energy for maneuvers that did not knife-edge well at all. You could then fly through those maneuvers much like a bullet (hence, ballistic pattern).


Ed Cregger
Old 12-08-2006, 06:10 AM
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO


ORIGINAL: beefcake78

Thanks RFJ. I am having a minor problem getting servos mounted without the aileron servo / pushrods binding against the elevator/rudder pushrods... ARRRRRGGGHHHH!!!

-CaKe

----------


That's why I won't mount an aileron servo inside of the fuselage ever again. Enough is enough. The nostalgia freaks are just going to have to overlook that in my models of the Kaos or the Dirty Birdy.


Ed Cregger
Old 12-08-2006, 06:16 AM
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO


ORIGINAL: rainedave

Stripes, I have personally never seen a Bridi design with a square LE set at a 45 degrees angle (but there might be one).

All of the Bridi designs I've built - including the Kaos - use a laminated LE with a "false" or "sub" leading edge.

This was his standard method of wing construction and he used it from the Kaos up through the UFO, after which time he went to foam core wings.

Here is a drawing of how Bridi's wings are almost always built:

---------------


I'm going to foam wings on the Kaos and Dirty Birdy. I haven't built a straight wooden wing for these models yet. Well, it starts out straight, then begins seeking water, uranium or oil. Haven't figured out which as yet. Don't own the mineral rights anyway.


Ed Cregger
Old 12-09-2006, 02:31 AM
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO

There will be a Super Kaos .40 on Ebay today. Check it out by doing a seller search using my name: Glowplugboy.
Old 12-09-2006, 05:05 AM
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO

This Kaos has a OS 50 ringed engine with a perry pump, macs tuned pipe and boca ceramic bearings. It has been clocked at 105MPH
George G. Royal
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Old 12-23-2006, 07:45 PM
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ORIGINAL: glowplugboy

In 1981, I placed 2nd in Sportsman at the Southwest Championships in Dallas, Texas with an "Utter" Chaos, which I believe Bridi produced for Hobby Lobby. It was a slightly longer tail moment than original Kaos fuse with a Curare wing. I had an OS Max .61 FSR and a pipe on it. Simple fixed tri-gear. I outflew Curares, Arrows, and Dirty Birdys with it. Legendary design, the Kaos.
Regards,
GPB

------------------


Congratulations on your 2nd place accomplishment.

I built the Utter Chaos in 1992 or so. Unfortunately, due to my NJ divining basement, mine turned out to be an Udder Chaos (yes, it flew like a cow) with bowed trailing edges and the works after just a brief stay in my basement. Still, it did fly largely like a Chaos/Kaos and was a great model.

I just ordered the giant 80" version of the Chaos today. Maybe I will be able to keep it straighter now that I've moved from swampy southwest NJ to northwest GA where the humidity is much, much lower. Gee, just what I've always wanted - a gasoline burning Kaos...<G>


Ed Cregger
Old 12-23-2006, 11:08 PM
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO

Ed, how can the humidity be lower in Ga than in NJ? You did say NW and the mountains are always a bit less humid than the lowlands. But, still.
Old 01-02-2007, 12:51 AM
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO

Does any one have 2-stroke powerplant suggestions for a Killer Kaos (.60) or an Ultimate Kaos 60 that would give good performance and SPEED, very similar to 8178's Irvine 53 powered Kaos 40 posted above? I'd like to avoid the tuned pipe route. Tuned silencers ok. I was thinking about an MVVS .77 w/ tuned silencer. What about a Mecoa HP 60? Rossi 65 (used) ? Irvine 72? Enya 60 XF4? Would a 60 size/weight 90 be overkill such as an MVVS 91 or O.S. FX 91? Cost is certainly a consideration, I hope to spend less than 200 bucks on something that really runs well and is reliable. My flying site is also at 4800 ft above sea level.
Old 01-02-2007, 01:10 AM
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rainedave
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Do a search for the Tower .75 in the engine forum. Lots of glowing comments have been posted about it.
Old 01-03-2007, 10:38 AM
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cwahl
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO

If you're interested in going the "classic" route, then the K&B .61 (loop-scavenged with baffled ringed piston, not the Schnuerle ported) might do it for you. This was the top pattern engine in the early sixties, later eclipsed by Webra Blackhead, ST Bluehead, etc. But properly tricked out, with Perry pump and Clarence Lee's (the designer) Perry Directional Porting (PDP, the baffle-piston version of Schnuerle porting) it's a very respectable engine, lasts a long time, and is reliable. Also weighs less than most of the more brutish .61s -- mine with pump are less than 15 oz. without stock muffler, which weighs 3.5 to 4 oz. depending on whether it's early or late vintage. Maybe you can do better than that with a "mousse can" or Ultrathrust muffler.

Awhile back K&B folded up and sold out designs/tooling/inventory to Mecoa. The classic .61 (p/n 6550) is still listed as "in process" so they may not be available there. Mecoa seems to prefer selling the twist-on head ABC version, a late variation by K&B, and not to my taste. But the classic appears often on eBay, often NIB, and I believe that Mr. Lee will still customize a "stock" engine with the PDP modification, which he's been doing for decades. The Perry pump, and a larger-bore Perry carburetor meant for use with it, are also seen on eBay occasionally (though stock carb can also be used with the pump). Cost is very reasonable: $60 to $100 for the engine NIB, $20 to $30 for the pump, and perhaps $45 for the customizing.

There were three different carburetors that are found on eBay engines: first the Perry, then a rectangular aluminum one, and finally a cast aluminum with fins and K&B logo. I prefer the Perry or the finned one, but there are folks who thad no problem with the other one.

AFAIK, Mr. Lee doesn't do email. Here's his mail/phone info:

C. F. Lee Mfg. Co.
10112 Woodward Avenue
Sunland, CA 91040

Phone: 818 352 3766

No connection to Mr. Lee except as a very satisfied customer.
Old 01-04-2007, 02:13 AM
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO

I think the K&B 61 would be awsome to try. The Tower 75 does seem tempting, but I've been burned 3x on the newer "low price engines" where in one instance I had a poorly cast crank case split in half right out of the box. I also had a newer ST come with a case full of machine chips and muffler bolts that were not threaded, they just provided blanks for me to thread myself I guess. The TH 75 sounds great, but I'm no longer willing to gamble even if my assumptions are completely wrong. I am, however, very interested in the classical powerplants. PDP means getting a new sleeve? That k&b is very light! Another light engine is the Fox 60 or 74. Has anyone tried this? Does any one know how a DC Ultimate Kaos (or any other Kaos wood kit) builds in terms of CG? Will I be able to take advantage of a lightweight 60 or will I be adding lead in places where the lighter engine won't be any advantage for me?
Old 01-04-2007, 02:49 AM
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Default RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO


ORIGINAL: rainedave

Ed, how can the humidity be lower in Ga than in NJ? You did say NW and the mountains are always a bit less humid than the lowlands. But, still.

----------------


Sorry for taking so long to answer.

I lived in Pennsville, Salem County, NJ, which is in the south west corner of the state, along the Delaware River and Delaware Bay. If you can look at some aerial views (Google Earth), you will see that about half of Salem County is swamp land. Where I am now in Georgia is fairly well elevated and I live on top of a hill. The Tennessee River isn't much more than a little creek to me, after living near Delaware Bay.

It is much more humid in my old stomping grounds in NJ than it is here in Ringgold, Georgia. Seriously. I laugh when the locals say that it is humid here.

However, the temperature actually feels hotter down here for a given amount. I attribute this to the increased amount of sun shine. Move out of the sun's direct light down here and you get significantly more comfortable feeling. This trick didn't work in NJ. The humidity was really bad up there.


Ed Cregger

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