noblechuck

Cees.
I will resend the email, it had some pictures, maybe that was the issue.
Chuck

noblechuck

Message was sent successfully.

If you do not receive it I may have to reduce picture sizes.

Let me know if you do not receive.

Chuck

Taurus Flyer

UStik,


Thank you, but,
You did not make a Taurus before, you would have see this also!
! Let me know if you want, I will help you.

Look to the picture, Quiz 2 !

Cees

Taurus Flyer

Hello Noblechuck,

I did receive that message, and did give you a reply, I wil send that e-mail again.

Cees


And............ did send that e-mail again.


Cees

FLPilot

My Feedback: (23)

Cees,

Are you going to do the Nose Wheel build thread? I hope so!!

DR

Taurus Flyer

It is interesting DR.

What will this nosewheel will do for me:

D
The article/product on the picture keeps my Taurus horizontal whatever the tyre pressure will be of the front wheel , so I have more grip with cross wind during take off and landing

E
The article/product keeps the centre of gravity on the right position during the flight whatever the fuel the OS MAX 61 FX (or MVVS 10ccm spare) consumes even when I fly upside down or under influence of high G forces!

F It keeps my Taurus on the surface on the moment of touch down, whatever this surface will be, asphalt of concrete, but also makes it possible to start from (long) grass preventing me Taurus he will behave like a lawn-mower. It smooths the transformation from nose wheel steering to rudder steering during take off, wich is important in strong cross winds, and prevents "break out!" It shortens the runway on grass runway.


When you want built it yourself at least you must have a idea what it will do for you!
Imagine that you plane will fly backwards with it??
Cees

UStik

No, Cees, I didn't build a Taurus before and the only Taurus I would build is a virtual one (for a simulator). I'm just waiting for someone to post better resolution plans than Uncle Willie's.

Sorry, all I can see on your pictures is a track rod suspension, but not sure.

FLPilot

My Feedback: (23)

Check post # 205 !!!!!

Taurus Flyer

FLPilot


IT IS NOT A NOSE WHEEL BRAKE


Ed did not use the nose-wheel-brake on the Taurus, only on the main wheels! He did want us believe so, but now we do know better!!


Cees

Taurus Flyer

UStik,

You did see the movie?

Cees

Taurus Flyer

Gentlemen think logic

After you did see post 204 (read it!) You could take a try:

Taurus Flyer, I do think it is : B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B
And I saY : Wrong

Cees

Taurus Flyer

Hello UStik,

I show you a nice pair of pictures, to show our visitors how we do our research in Europe, Fasten your seatbelts please!

Guess where they come from

Cees

UStik

Thanks Chuck we now know for sure that the hatch was fixed with red tape, later painted white, and even later cut open to remove the linkages. Likely the hatch is lost.

But the track rod suspension nose gear has to be one of your inventions, and it would fit F which is also the most suggestive description. The video shows only the same plain landing gear as Chuck's pictures, except artifacts of course.

Taurus Flyer

UStik,

You are a good teammember, but you are not always right, pictures from AMA museum!

F is the good answer I give you the other 19 F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F

It’s the nose landing gear, I especially made for my Taurus.
But what’s the invention?
To start of a grass landing area, there is enough nose up position to
start on a short distance and prevents it becomes a lawn-mower
You do not need the speed, you normally need, to rotate the plane by
negative lift pressure of the stab/elevator. Especially with more
backwards positioned main landing gear the needed speed can be a lot
more than the minimum speed to fly.
With a fixed nose gear in this position, the plane will jump of on
concrete runways or asphalt at the moment of touch down, especially
under windy conditions and low airspeed.(SEE THE MOVIE UStik)
This is the result of the contact of the nose wheel a moment before the
main gear touches the ground and the backwards rotating of the plane..
The problem becomes much bigger as result of the windgradiënt the
plane nearly will fall down the last cm’s you can see on the movie.

That’s why modellers often use two nose landing gears, one for grass
area, one for concrete/asphalt.

The invention of my nose landing gear is also that on the moment of touch
down, it automatically shortens to prevent the plane jumps of!
Last point but not less important, It smooths the transformation from nose wheel
steering to rudder steering during take off, wich is important in strong cross winds, and prevents "break out!"

When we see the movie, Ed does probably use a gear, especially for
asphalt or concrete, he was normally used to.
We also can see that on the Taurus of the second auction, it has a
wheel brake on this gear and, you use that during contests on concrete
or asphalt, to start with no moving plane. to prevent rolling when there
is no wind. (remember this we will talk a lot about this later!!)
Members of the contest in Belgium on the movie that where familiar only
with grass nearly get not there plane on the surface without damage.

So. My Taurus will fly in the future with a video link and the landing
gear already is prepared to start between the cows and horses, and to
land near the mine towers (Thank you …) or in the city where ever I
will. And my wheel brake? Yes, we all did make this on the main gear,
because the Taurus was already prepared for my nose gear in 1963 (Thank
you Ed).

And the Dutch (N)F5 Freedom fighter?………………… I do remember the Dutch
Government did want a nose landing gear with two selectable positions because
they thought they did not have to use ATO’s (Assisted Take-Off) rockets
to start with heavy loading, much cheaper and ………typical DUTCH. (Thank
you for your applause!)


Cees , thinking about the building thread

UStik

Cees, you're not exactly a typical Dutch cheapskate, doing several costly inventions just because they are nice to have.

This landing gear is a great idea but I slightly disagree with the reasoning. Even though these old pattern ships are poorly powered, they still have a low wing loading and should not need the help of a gear to nose-up even on grass (but see Gerry Nelson's take-off from tarmac).

According to the plan, the Taurus had a zero-lift angle-of-attack on the ground. As I learned here in the forum, the old pattern ships had quite forward balance point and hence some decalage. This may suffice to rotate the plane at a certain speed or it may not. Anyway, a bit up elevator may be needed at the risk of the plane rocketing off the deck. I think that's why they didn't use even negative aoa. Ed's take-off may be a bit abrupt because he used elevator but it's just OK.

I think Ed was just a very cool pilot. The landing is even cooler than the take-off. He comes in at high speed to penetrate wind and gusts (and allow for wind gradient). Then he pitches up to bleed off speed and, maintining the attitude, lets the plane come in for a spot landing. Supposedly, he had some power set during the whole approach because the nose is high all the time. After the controlled plop-down (a smooth landing scores less than a spot landing, and mind the gusts) the roll-out is rather short despite the approach speed. Seems Ed had no brake on this plane, but the plane did fly only nose-up so with the nose wheel on the ground there was no balooning tendency, anyway, and throttling back and the wind were perfect brakes.

So I think Ed was able to do without brakes and adjusting nose gear. I'm aware that brakes were needed for the procedure stops before take-off and after landing.

Taurus Flyer

UStik,

I have to bring some show in my story, Ed did not have brakes, in the drawings of the Taurus they are, that's why I have and did say it this way on every show Ed would have flown with the MAN Magazine Taurus. I did also mean the other shoulder deckers? with flexible meangear in the movie.

repeat____________________________________________ _________
Members of the contest in Belgium on the movie that where familiar only
with grass nearly get not there plane on the surface without damage.
__________________________________________________ _________

On a concrete runway the nose gear needs a lower spring constant than the maingear, always for that moment the "jury" is looking! Especially when you know that you are not as good as Ed Kazmirski and you have to fly a contest on a plaved airfield with your grasshopper and the nose gear touches the ground before the maingear does! (SO MAY BE THAT'S HELPING!)

Because of the strong wind Ed does not need a brake and he did not have them we know for shure.
I explained, but it is not always directly clear, that if you have a plane and fly from (long) grass airfields, sometimes it can not accelerate enough to start, within the distance you have. In the Netherlands we nearly always fly on grass!!

This nose gear has a torsion spring suspension with very low spring constant so.

In the position you see the Taurus in our living room, it has a nose up position, so ground clearance the propeller(13x6!) has more diameter than Ed did use on his VECO. The Taurus would be a lawn mower in the grass!
When I start, with enough elevator, the nose of the plane raises under influence of elevator pressure AND THE SPRING SUSPENSION. So, it automaticly gets the right angel of attack also with low speed. There will be enough clearence between propeller and grass. And let I tell you The Taurus has a angle of attack at this moment!!!!
The plane lifts in the air "speed controlled" so on moment of "lift of", power reduces to controlled/wanted speed, also when I want to start with minimum speed about 40 km/h. So the angle of attack will be nearly the same during rolling as lift of, no rocketing, also not from grass with full speed.

On landings on plaved surface the suspension shortens the gear during the touch down specially on moments the nose gear touches the surface earlier than the mains!!
So with strong winds, and so low angle of attack
Cruise control normally switches over to manual control and "stationairs" motor RPM on moment of touch down (g-force switch and/or maingear switch!)
After touch down, full elevator "down" also actuates the mainwheel brakes (see Taurus drawings!), so the angle attack reduces to 0 or negative, because of lift force of the elevator and nose gear suspension and main wheel-brake forces This keeps the Taurus on the surface during "rolling out????".

Starting on concrete with crosswind, you need enough pressure on your nose wheel to keep the track. You will have more pressure when the maingear is in a more afterwards position, and I have. When you accelerate with crosswind and the nose wheel loses grip, it can happen you go of the track before you can correct with rudder. also steering rudder before gives no selution, you will not keep the track.
With the suspended nose gear the grip from the wheel on the surface reduces during the traject the angle of attack increases during acceleration(??? this is super-cool-coalenglisch???) so you can better anticipate with the rudder to keep controll.

You cannot compare this with a plane only used on concrete or asphalt, that starts on a square (or round) field exactly in wind direction!
On the short asphalt runway some pictures are taken from my Taurus I must use the brakes to stop in that short distance I have, specially with low windspeeds, because also stationair RPM does give the plane enough speed you cannot turn.

And do not forget, we do not have much space to make our runways, The Netherlands is a little country we need to use every cm (inch). LOL

My Taurus only looks like the MAN Taurus, only he is a little heavier, and a little bit more power 10CCM, 4500 gram (Ed 7,5 CCM, 3600 gram)
But it has a lot of electronics and mechanics to make it a concurrent of all that overpowered modern planes, and especially in strong wind!
His propeller, 13" low speed gives him good thrust, but I must start with nose up, the noseleg is normal lenght in horizontal position of the plane.

Cees

Taurus Flyer

UStik

BTW You have to be positive.

Oh, TaurusFlyer, do you mean you devoloped a torsion spring suspesion or something like that?
Would it also be usefull on a main gear?

Yes, UStik, you could also use it on the main gear, and it is not so expensive as you think:
Repeat____________________________________________ _________________________________________________
"Cees, you're not exactly a typical Dutch cheapskate, doing several costly inventions just because they are nice to have.
__________________________________________________ _________________________________________________
Only pianowire, copperwire, and tinsolder!!! And you've never seen it before!


Can you give us an example Taurus Flyer?

Yes, USTik, This is the Orion, also from Ed, 4500 gram Enya 60 4C, span 178 cm, so poorly powered but with a little bit more wingloading and, WITH TORSION SPRING SUSPENSION ON THE MAINS
And without the suspension the retractable landing gear would not live animore on our "grass runway" and so not this 3 year old Orion with his 30 years old engine and 130 flights on the counter!

Cees

Taurus Flyer

Gentlemen,

I did thinking about a building thread about the torsion spring suspended nose gear, but I do understand you are not so interested.
So I am prepairing our next step:

History Hospital History Hospital History Hospital History Hospital History Hospital History Hospital


Why did Ed did mixed up his planes?


Cees

Taurus Flyer

FLPilot,DR

I did not forget your reaction so,
Give me a message (PM / e-Mail) if you want info about the nose leg. Maybe for a specific plane.
We can think about it if it will be usefull for your personally circumstances, location or aerodynamical.

Cees

Taurus Flyer

We all know now…..
The Taurus, sold on e-Bay in the first auction and now in the hands of
VR/CS and for this moment in the AMA Museum, was the Taurus from
the Internationals Ed did use, but only the fuselage is the part of the
plane we saw on the magazines in 1962/1963.

This was the result of the picture and film research of the team of the
Thread.

In this last description I do want to give a review of arguments why
Ed did mix up his two aeroplanes for the two sequential periods.

- For making the pictures for the magazines prior on the Internationals and promotion flyghts.

- For the Internationals 1963 in Belgium.

THE PLANES

In prior messages we already could read that Ed did not have many
planes in the period of the Nationals and Internationals.
When Ed wanted to use another wing set on his plane in Belgium what he was
needed for that?

- The MAN Magazine Taurus fuselage with the orginal reed radio

Yes, and only one other Taurus from wich he did use the wingset.

- His old Taurus


When we do not have attention for what rested after the mix, we only
talk about the Taurus Ed flew with.

DE MIX

A few times before, Ed already must have decided to combine wing and fuselage
because he had to do a few things:
- FAI stickers on the wing and fuselage both "A" and certificated..
- Also maybe a aileron servo mounting in the wing, when it was not in it already or no more
- He did make fit the wing and fuselage.
He could not change this anymore in Belgium, it was prepared this way
and coded.

This was also field proven by Chuck Noble, who easy did bring the two
parts back to one plane after 45 year for e-Bay auction. These two parts
never were used anymore to fit with something else! Maybe always have
been in the cave for 45 years!

THE RADIO OF THE MIX

The reporter in the short article, eye witness, wrote in his artikel,
(Post 117, Kingaltair)
__________________________________________________ ____________

“Ed Kazmirski also had the Proportional radio in a model but elected
to fly his reed system equipped Taurus instead.�
__________________________________________________ ____________

So the combined Taurus was equipped with reeds an we all believe that because he did fly in many countries with the MAN Magazine Taurus.
Also is said : "The original Taurus definitely had reeds back in 1962"
This makes clear that Ed used his reed radio in the new MAN Magazine Taurus and used this on moments we saw hem on tour and pictures but stil lateron in the internationals in Belgium
Also in the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP MODEL ANALYSES, we can see Orbit with 5 Bonners Transmites, so reeds (Dutch: TIP-TIP)

ARGUMENTS

What could be the reason that Ed did mix up two models this way,
or, why did he use the MAN Magazine Taurus fuselage but not the wing of the MAN Magazine plane?.

NACA2419

If the now used wing of his "Old Taurus" was also a NACA 2419 just as all the other 17 wingpairs on the Internationals !

- The wing of the MAN Magazine Taurus, was not as good as the "old"one. Maybe the old was more straight, had better shape, was stronger......

- The MAN Magazine wing could have been damaged before, repaired and quality reduced to second choice"

- During flying his new MAN Magazine Taurus Ed did view other shortcomings wich he could not explain, or correct.


The new MAN Magazine Taurus was a straightened design, so maybe the new airfoil was designed to NACA2419 (Just I did!)
So the old Taurus could have had a "Modified" NACA2419 profile:

- Less camber

- Thinner

- Better behaviour with reeds

And during the demonstrationflights Ed did recognise the differences, and if there were he would of course!

THE FUSELAGE

We can talk a lot about the wings, why not about the fuselage.

Ed did practice acrobat flying before the Internationals after the
fotosessions and so he could have had experienced the
better way of (symmetrical) linkage of the elevator from the MAN Magazine
Taurus.
All other Taurus flyers during the Internationals would have this
linkage.

When Ed preferred the reeds, he was familiair with, they already where within the fuselage with the best linkage.

WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP MODEL ANALYSES (1963) of post 45

H.Tom number 10 of the Internationals from Canada did use a Taurus, kit
model (see tabel 1 post 45), so there were construction drawings al over
the world before the Internationals.

There were 17 Taurussen on the field with the same NACA 2419 profile
and fuselage construction. Because, when you copy a Taurus of build one
from a kit, who are you to change the profile? So I do think no one of
the other members had an other profile than the original.

Ed’s Taurus also had the same fuselage like all the others, look the
bulkhead, doublers and machinal curved top sheeting but..........
Did he had an other “better� profile?
When that is what we think, we still can check it!

So, that are reasons I could think of and ............ having an idea of the
craftsmanship and creativity of Ed I for sure know he did make the most
preferred choice.
Make the best Taurus from the best parts he had, because this was his
first step, try to win and at least from the other 17 Taurusses in the Internationals.

ADDITION

When I do see the picture of the cave, I do see the Taurus Ed used on
the left side, and the wings he did use. Look to details as painting and
the hangings of the aileron.

On the right side I do see a fuselage different form the AMA Magazine
Taurus, so also different from all the Taurusses used in Belgium.
Why?
The head of the engine is nearly as high as the nose sheeting of the
plane, so I think it is the fuse of the second auction of e-Bay, with
his lower engine mounting and still with silk covered tailplane,
On the right side, probably that are the MAN Magazine wings
No straightened trailing edge.
We will never see this pair of wings again I think.

Ed did not change his winning Taurus, it did go back in the cave for 45
years. It was too valuable for him I think.

Ed maybe later did use the proportional Taurus with a sheeted tailplane
with a duplicated old scheme with wings with a straight trailing edge in
the old color scheme.
And then maybe later as we have seen in the second auction of e-Bay
with the back swept wings.

This is the last conclusion of our Taurus.
I already had contact with the AMA people, very kind people, already
helping me with the pictures of the hatch of the fuselage.
The Taurus will be in their museum after their owner VR/CS did let make him a
short tourney.

If you want to see Ed's Taurus flying, RC HALL OF FAME.ORG is the place, also to read all about the TIP TIP systems

I for sure knows that a lot of people in the USA will know a lot more
about the Taurus but remember! We only wanted your attention for the situation this
Taurus was in Europe, on 21 August in Belgium,

In the article of the reporter of our post. Of which we already see
the phrases we also could read:
__________________________________________________ _____
The universal interest in the U.S.A. Team led to their half hour
practice time receiving close scrutiny, and with justifiable reason.
__________________________________________________ ______

The meaning of this is that 3 years before, the American Team was in
Bern Switzerland
And Ed did beat all the others with his Orion.
That would be impossible now because 17 members also had a

TAURUS,

(They thought!)
In the future you can see him in the AMA museum,

WINNER OF THE WINNER

WITH SECRET WINGS
The team members who give there respons in one or more messages : RCDENT-(S-T-A-R-T-E-D); WEDJ; cllaurit ;8178; airbusdrvr; turbo,gst;
pimmz; RFJ; KINGALTAIR; rcacro; Highplains; Atlanta60; Michaelj2k; Free
Bird; Hueydriver; neilrether; Raindave; Trisquire; Roseberry; rbdyni;
sqeakalong; jaymen; frugalme(2nd Taurus, post83);Noblechuck; avlwilsons;
propbuster the tv-watcher but also the big motivator; FLPilot; UStik; Jeff Worsham

I do thank you all and if you cannot comply with this message/text let me know

This was only a story how it al could have happen so :"DO NOT SHOOT THE MESSENGER! "


Cees Wester
Taurus Flyer

Taurus Flyer

Gents,

After I did publice my last post + 250 members/visiters did read this thread.
We only were focussed on the Taurus Ed did use in Belgium.

I still do have questions after this important story.
What about the other parts of the ""rest" of the mix, or what about the Nationals prior (on?) the Internationals in Belgium

So the fuselage of the Taurus of the Nationals 1962 Ed used.

There has to be taken a lot of pictures during the Nationals 1962 in the USA and I do want to see them!

I have two points there have to be recognised on the picture of that moment of the Taurus Ed did use.:
1 The details of the right wing of the Taurus of the Internationals in Belgium. (picture of auction 1 Taurus)
2 The militairy pilot (picture of auction 2 Taurus)

3td point can be that we do not see an receiver antenna, like on the picture or the cave,
or on a defiant position about 6 inches behind the cockpit as on picture of the Taurus of auction 2

4d point additional can be external linkage of the elevator pushrod on the righthand side of the plane (in flight direction).
because Ed maybe did not have a solution for that on the moment he did build this fuselage
(Yes-Yes I do know the kit of the Orions did have also these linkage but than he also could have a TOP FLITE pilot!!!)

Show us the picture if you find one please because it is a miracle we did not see one of them yet, or did we?





BTW, UStik, I did se this later. in your Post 249
__________________________________________________ ______________________
Great observation, BTW. And you didn't mention the Top Flite pilot in the WC Taurus yet?
__________________________________________________ ______________________
We could not prove much with the Pilot, and noticed that before in messages with Noblechuck.
On the picture In the cave I could not see this with details maybe other do,
In this post the militairy pilot is valuable because we can prove with pictures (maybe not for 100 %) the fuselage of the Taurus of the 2nd e-Bay auction was used by Ed in the Nationals

Maybe you, Noblechuck, on the orginal of the "cavepicture" can show us for sure the militairy pilot on the right side, with an enlarged picture?



Cees

Taurus Flyer

Gents,

I did make copies of the pictures of Auction 2 e-bay, the back swept wing and the fuse with low positioned motor mounting and the 4 holes and did compare this with the picture of post 107 page 5.
When you look to the plane of Ed of message 107 in high resolution you can see the 4 holes in the left side of the fuselage, Two used and two of the old (maybe reed?) radio.
Also you can see thrustline motor, bottom line front of fuselage/tak compartment and bottomline fuse behind the wing.

I show two pictures, one of post 107 and one of e-bay,

With white lines to accent:
1 thrust line motor
2 bottom line fuse behind the wing
3 bottom line fuse before the wing, so tank compartiment
Both fuselages have the same lines.

With blue square to accent
4 holes fot the radio equipment switch/connectors
Both fuselages have the same 4 holes

The painting scheme on the wing is modern, and looks the same like the wing of auction 2. See picture 3

So it seems to be complete the plane of auction 2 that we seen in the picture of Post 107, so we can date it.
-taken approximately 1964-1965 at the Detroit Invitational-see Post 107 page 5

Maybe someone have a picture of the post 107 in high resolution?

The fuse of auction 2 has a old painting scheme.
This can beclared that this fuse in the past is be used with the old wings of the first Taurus probably in the Nationals in the USA.
Ed did remove the silk covered tailplane and fin and maked them sheeted. So it get's the sticker after the Internationals in Belgium and Ed used the fuselage untill 1964/1965!!

I did tell this before, this fuse seems to be "As old as the way to Rome", and that will be proved with pictures! (I do want carbon-date it!)

That's why I ask for foto's of the old configuration, from before Belgium, before the Internationals, in last Post 271.
When we do not find pictures of that, it is still possible that Ed did us a more older Taurus in the Nats, but I cannot believe he did, in that period! (travelling!)

So, pictures of Ed and his Taurus in the Nats of 1962 please????



Will be continued


Cees

pimmnz

The Taurus and Ed in post 147 was purportedly taken at the 1962 US nationals. Not the same paint scheme as the later fuselage (Taurus 2?) in question, but likely to be the fuselage flown in Belgium.
Evan.

Taurus Flyer

Good morning pimmnz, USA is still asleep.

The picture of your thread is NOT taken during at the US Nats 1962.

Ed did win the Nats with his old Taurus. So people of Top Flitte must have thought after that!! "We are going to kit (also) the Taurus (like the Orion), he is famous now!" probably in 1962.

Ed did get (one of) the first new Taurus(sus), that's I did say in earlier messages a "preproduction" Taurus, They did use this Taurus to promote the kit when travelling over the world.
It is possible that Ed did not built this Taurus himself, but Top Flite did!

So promotion picture, And the text is oké, "Ed gives the Gen on Taurus."

Duriing traveling with this Taurus ed did not have much time left to prepair himself for the Internationals in Belgium, so also his "own orginal old Taurus" so, maybe under time pressure, he did take de decision to mix up the old and MAN cover Taurus as we could read.

So, during the Nats in 1962 the TAURUS kit/drawings did not yet excist.
I only accepts "snap shots" from public of the Nats 1962 USA with The Old Taurus in "warpaintings", because I do expect flags, NUSA mark, Stickers FAI (1961), Fat characters on the wing like in Belgium!.


Evan , thank you for your response Cees

RFJ

This shot taken at 1962 Nats.

Ray