doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

John,

those spoliers from HL look like the real deal! They are even red in colour!

You got to install those - at least in the new wing. BTW, are you planning on sanding down the wing a tad and re-painting? It sure would complement your newly finished fuse nicely.

Nice job on the pipe tunnel - can't wait to see the fuse sanded down with tail feathers on. I'm not sure if I followed, but making the fin out of foam sounds like a great idea. You could also make the rudder out of two joined sheets of balsa (stiffer) and put a cross piece along the bottom (MKstyle) - then, if desired, you could bore out two holes in it to lighten it up. Just an idea. The plans don't show it as being sanded to airfoil but Iguess that's a given.

David.

Johnkpap

Thanks for the input David

I think I have found where I can get the spoilers:- Graupner Direct Shop in Germany

https://shop.graupner.de/webuerp/servlet/AI?ARTN=93

Only problem is I think they are now made of ABS Plastic .... I think the ones used on Matts Arrow were Metal

The other thing that has been rattling around by brain is the only place the spoilers can be seen is on the plan !!! this pic shows Flaps before the alleron's.....there are also only 3 servos in the wing !!!


Now this is the question did the arrow have flaps or spoilers or both or was the spoiler only for slowing down on landing on a later model, anyone who has or had a arrow got any Ideas?

Back to the Foam cutting... I have Building to do

Johnkpap

Johnkpap

This is the Pic on Page 4 of the Man mag showing the flaps and servos

I forgot to upload it

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Yea,

that looks like a tricky one to figure out. I believe that both Matt and Prettner used a flap/spolier mixer which was mechanical in the beginning and then later it was electronic - at least in part. The Curare had integral spoliers in the flaps that were hinged at a central point along the surface. As flaps came down, the spolier went up as an extension above the wing of the flap.

The flaps (which are shown on your photo of the MAN article) can be seen but unforutnately the spoilers can't. It's also possible that the wing shown wasn't actually of Matt's Arrow and so perhaps didn't have spoilers.The spoliers could be deployed independently (for diving) or mixed into the flaps so that when flaps went down, spoilers came up (for landing).

To simplify things, for an eventual new wing, it might be easiest to control the ailerons with dual outboard servos, locate two servos in the center for flaps and spoilers (independed control on Ch5 & Ch7 - Ch6 is for aileron servo #2) and setup the plane with pneumatics. Then, with your radio you can setup two Pmixes for Ch2 & Ch6 for ailerons (referred to as flaperons on some radios) and Ch5 & Ch7 for flapers.David.

Johnkpap

I have after alot of messing arround cut 2 usable tail bits

I ended up after about 4 goes on white foam getting all the possible issues , I decided to try cutting a set out of blue foam. This Worked

The main promlem is that , I am also not the greatest when it comes to foam wingsand are these a vey thin and also tapered in shape.

I will post more picks once I have sheeted them and cut a balsa leading and trailing edge

matt13

John,
just a work of caution, blue foam is VERY heavy when compaired to white foam. If you have templates already made, you I can cut white foam ones for you, I'm in Angle Vale.
My Arrow, which did have a fibre-glass fueslarge, needed nose weight, so you need to keep the tail end as light as you can. Matt

Johnkpap

Thanks for the offer of help matt

I did think about this issue, I have since coverd an am now sanding the tail plane, It has worked out to be ok not that heavy.

The amount of foam in the tail plane is not alot, there is more balsa in it than foam hopefully the Heavy OS engine will balance things out.

Matt Next time I have to cut a thin core I will let you know, the problem I was having was because the cores were thin as well as tapered, the white foam cuts
were not real good I think the core was bending on my second cut causing my template to shift, my cutting equpment and skill is also averageat best which did not help.

Matt Does any one Localy that you know of have any Glass Molds for any classic pattern planes, I picked up one for a 25 Engine plylon racer "Rivets" very cheaply some time ago, and am trying to findout If there are more around Adelaide.

I will post pics of the finished tail once the sanding is done and the Epoxy is set.

Johnkpap

matt13

Any time John, you can get me on 0409674772.
The trick with small cores is a small bow, and not too much heat to the wire, I'm no expert but I have got reasonable results.
I don't know anyone in Adelaide doing glass at the moment, I sent my mold for the Arrow to a guy in Queensland who has most of Bollys molds plus his own.
I believe he is into pylon too if I remember correctly.

Jeff Boyd 2

WOW . . this is looking GREAT.

Does this mean that we might get a "Classic Pattern" class up and running here in good ol' Adelaide ????? That would be cool !

I know the SA Pattern Association here would welcome the addition . .

Cheers, JB

Johnkpap

At the moment I am the only member of CMFCI who is intrested in clasic pattern.

Also there are very few members of my club that is building Anything!!!

But there is a small Upside:- I have managed to buy alot of Engines, pipes, retract parts and planes and kits and the all mportaint arrow wing
for next to nothing.

To get a Classic Pattern Comp or even just a group would be great here in Adelaide.


The biggest problemsare :-
Most of the flyers at CMFCI are flying ARF's once the planecrashes they buy another .....and another .....ect.....

There are no kits avaliable here in Adelaide for any classic pattern planes, the retailers are not stocking anything as there is no demand for any.

There is very few of us who know what a Classic pattern plane is:-unless you are 40+ years old you would never have seen one fly, that is one reason I
am building an Arrow Very few People will have seen one fly before, I also did not have the $$$ as a Apprentice in the 80's for any thing more than a Small 40 size trainer.
......

Which Club are you at Jeff maybe we can meet up and fly Classic Pattern Please PMme with Detail's Also If anyone else in Adelaide or SA Country please PM me perhaps we can Form a small group.

...Back to the Arrow I will be doing Engine tests on my OS 61 V engines Today as I need to know which carb/engine/pump and Pipe is going to be reliable and give the best performance, I will post the results soon.

Johnkpap

Jeff Boyd 2

Hi John . .

I mainly fly at Adelaide Model Aerosports - Monarto . . and I am also a member of Skyhawks (where Matt13 flies).

I don't have a Classic Pattern model . . yet ;o) (flya Comp-ARF Integral in F3A). . I flew a Kwik Fly MK3 / Taipanand a Bridi Super Kaos / Merco when I was younger . . there were a lot of models I would like to have flown, but didn't have the money to build them. NOW . . I don't have the TIME !

There is a guy flying a nice Curare at Strath . . and I am sure there must be more hanging in sheds.

John Tonks flies at Connie . . (he is a current F3A Masters pilot . . and all round nice guy). Have a chat to him out there. He gets all excited aboutClassic Patternmodels . . . .

Cheers, JB

Johnkpap

From Todays test results I will be fitting the most relable setup into the Arrow, which will be "Engine A " standard config with 7M carb and presure feed from the pipe


"Frankie" may go in the Arrow once the new plane is tested and I have gotten use to flying it, I always try and remove Issues from new build's and un proven planes
the last thing I need is a un-reliable engine on test flight day !!!!


Johnkpap

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Wise decision John.

Any upper end figures for your runs?

David.

Johnkpap

I did'nt use anyting but props in the standard range, I did not want the engines to rev out above 15000 rpm, as I have no Idea of the amount of hours on each engine has, I have posted the the top results in a new thread. I suspect "Franki" has a bit more to give if given a slighty smaller prop and Synth oil and 10% nitro, that alsocould result in Engine Melt down!!!

I have been told Ported 61 pattern engines are avery rare thing, the last thing I want to do is kill the golden goose.

I am now thinking of buying a more disposable engine copying the porting from "Franki" and seeing how far it will go eg.. Buying a new OS 61FX plus a spare sleeve and piston....Hmm

I think a better finish building the arrow first.

Johnkpap

Johnkpap

I have finished the tailI have more sanding to do before I fit every thing it to the arrow, I have glassed the centre of the tail plane for added strength with a strip of light weight Fibre glass.

There will be alot of Sanding to before things get intresting again.

Johnkpap

Johnkpap

I am getting ready to attach the tail to the arrow, First I have to make sure everything is truet, as you all have proberly worked out I have just joined the two halfs of the tail and cutting out a section to match in the fuse. I am not using tubes like Plan ....Too hard and another thing to go wrong.

Johnkpap

matt13

Hello John, it has been a while, just wondering how your got on with the Arrow so far? Matt

SunnyFlyer09

John, is there supposed to be a nose gear door that closes when the gear goes up? If not , it seems to be a large open area that could disturb airflow during flight. I don't see anything on my plans regarding a door.

dhal22

make one! i would love to see a hidden nose wheel.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Several of the classics were designed around the concept of an open rectangular bay for the nose gear - particularly the Japanese designs (MK kits among others). I think it was later that builders started to custom cut the opening to pass the gear. On the other hand, some retract manufacturers such as Kraft, had instructions on their gear showing how to build a gear door that would close mechanically through the activation of the gear - essentially consisting of a two way loaded hinge mechanism.

David.

Johnkpap

Hi all

Yes I was looking at a building a 2 door hatch using a lost foam / fibre glass method like I used for the pipe cover, as this worked well.

I have a Old scale Modeler mag that shows how to do this on a P38, the door is spring loaded and linkage goes to the front of the retact.

My arrow build has progressed a bit further than my Build I will update once I am back in Adelaide, I am in Sydney doing DELL/EMC Server training till friday.

I went to a few model shops near where I am staying in Sydney, they were very disapointing :- very little R/C plane stock !! The big Hobby CO had nothing but park flyers [:-]!!! the other Shop (Hobby Heros) had only ARF KITS !!! I was hoping for more but that is not the case [&o]. I have better shops home in Adelaide... This is quite a supprise I expected a big city to have MORE and a better range alsoand a higher chance of old stock items!!

Bunnings Has better Balsa Wood (Large Hardware Chain)

I also may not know what shop to go to for scratch build stuff.

Johnkpap

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

John,

do you guys have an online retailer in Australia such as Tower in the US? Here in Canada we have a pretty good retailer - www.greathobbies.com. They often have parts and kits that are not available elsewhere but they too focus primarily on what's available on the market (i.e., ARF's) and seem to be moving increasingly toward large scale aerobats. I guess that's where the business is.

David.

Johnkpap

No we have no major On Line Retail Company's here in Australia, What I do is buy Wood ect. Local and Small Items that I need From My local Hobby Shop (Model Mainia) in Adelaide I then put in a large order to TOWER in the USA for all the stuff that might need Every Few Months, I will be doing one once I am back home, Shipping Costs Of large Items are the biggest Issue we face in Australia as Very Few Shops are Stocking Real KIt's.

DUBRO items are up to 3 times the price of what Tower sells them for !!!!

Any other brand is a Pain to buy as only a few items are stocked.

Johnkpap

MTK

I had a total of 4 Arrows back in the day. They flew great. The last two had the combined spoiler/flap popularized by Prettner. Worked super well and the model did not suffer from flap pitch issues

One of the club members was a real craftsman designing all sorts of very interesting gadgets for the Arrow. Here're some of them:
Fully functional gear doors for all three gear, all actuated by a single retract servo...very cool
Separate flaps and spoilers...spoiler made the model dump lift very quickly and flaps generATED lots of lift. Both deployed at the same time allowed the model to come in fairly slowly at a very steep angle. But the wing was heavy at around 3 lbs for a 700 sq inch wing. I now build 700 squares at about 19-20 ozs, all paint
A head cowling for the engine...so tight fitting on the fuse that you couldn't insert a sheet of paper around the seam. The seam was imperceptible at 10 feet. Clearance around the engine was about 1/8" and at speed, the model never had cooling issues. The pipe also had it's own shroud with the same 1/8" clearance all around. Cooling was never an issue and this was Summer in Texas
The way he secured the pipe was simple, functional, extremely light...really cool. The return to underneath stinger he attached to the pipe was fashioned in a such a manner at to produce a very interesting exhaust sound

He built two of these and they were both immaculate. As a young man, I learned a tremendous amount from simply watching this man execute like no other I have ever seen before or since

An interesting note....around 1983, the Japanese World team went through and practiced at my club field prior to Pensacola Worlds. As fine as those Japaanese models were, guess what the Japanese modelers (who's who of Japanese modeling, names like Naruke, Yoshioka, etc) drooled over? Yup, Ed's Arrow

MattK

Johnkpap

Thanks MattK for the Support

I don't think my Arrow is going to be as fancy as the ones you describe, I just hope that it fly's nice and lives more than one flight.

Any Photos? Any detailed photos anyone has of a Arrow showing flaps/spoilers or even pipe routing ect would help alot.

Thanks

Johnkpap