Paint for Pattern Planes
 

I'm getting ready to paint my Tipo 750 (glass fuse and 3/4 oz glassed flying surfaces). I'm not a huge Monokote fan. Haven't painted one of these birds in over a decade though. Just wondered what paint systems people are using and which are the best nowdays. Anyone have comments on Klass Kote, Radio South, Nelson Hobby, automotive, etc.? I have an automotive detail spray gun. I'm thinking of using old fashion butyrate dope for the minimal weight buildup.

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

RC:
I use automotive paint, in particular acrylic enamel. I find them better than butyrate and as good as epoxy paints.Good coverage, light but takes a little long to dry. You would want to make sure to paint in a clean area. For primer I use Lacquer enamel, great cover, sands easily.
I also use Urethane enamel (dries quick) with same primer as above. I find it better than acrylic enamel and it dries faster with a harder surface.
In either case, make sure you use the reducer and the catalyst (hardener) to ensure fuel proof. I use 20% nitro content fuel. No clear coat required. These are "Martin-Senour" paints.
I buy these at NAPA auto store, but lately the Urethane enamel is getting difficult to find. I find these auto paints to be cheaper than PPG Concept paints and the epoxy paints.
Be careful with the colors as some contain lead, read the labels before you buy and have the proper personell protectection equipment when you paint.

Orlando

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

I have always had really good results with plain old RustOleum. Covers very good, dries quick, dries smooth and resists scratches.

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

I've always used either Automotive lacquer (great color choices) or Epoxy paint. With the lacquer, you need to add a bit of plasticiser

For my Perigee, I have just finished priming with Klass Kote, seems to work just like the old K&B Superpoxy.

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

I've used dope, automotive lacquers (with plasticizer), automotive enamels (prefer PPG), Hobbypoxy, Superpoxy and Klasskote. I think Klasskote gives great results, is easy to use (only one reducer), minimally toxic and has good shelf life. I've used a Binks auto touch-up gun for primer and base colors and a Paasche airbrush for trim work. I now own an HVLP gun which I will be trying soon.
My first choice would be Klasskote. If you have a desire to use more colors then probably acrylic enamel (PPG). If I were going to do a 'show finish' (like for Toledo) then I would probably go with acrylic enamel with a clear coat, but I doubt I'll be doing any more of those - at least until I move - my neighbors don't seem to like the smell of paint (especially acrylic enamel).
Proper ventilation is critical for your health as permanent liver damage can result from inhaling some types of paint vapors (Imron is quite toxic for example).
Nothing beats a nicely executed painted finish. Get a close look at the Japanese pattern ships - immaculate!
-Will B.

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

Where can I find a good source for Klass Kote products?

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

It is sold direct over the internet.

www.klasskote.com

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

Thanks, Man!

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

the plane on post #38 is how a plane is supposed to look after completion. monocote will never touch that. i need to find out how he did that and what type of paint.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_70..._2/key_/tm.htm

david

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

David,

I'm not certain, but I'd bet that is a base coat/clear coat acryllic lacquer finish that has been superbly prepared/painted. The whole key to that type of painting is prep work...... as in 2 days just getting ready to shoot primer.... to get a glass look like that simply takes a lot of time and effort... and as you see.. it's worth it.

Dan
Carolina Custom Aircraft

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

Before everyone gets all hyped up into trying for glass-like finishes, jump in the car (during the day time) and take a ride to a local airport. Look at the full size aircraft and their finishes.

I build to fly, but I want a decent looking model. To me, Monokote's level of finish is just fine and is easy to match with just about any type/kind of paint. That's good enough for me.

I don't understand folks that put days and days into finishing a model that is going to acquire hanger rash from day one of flying. I can build more airplanes and experience them. Of course, maybe some folks need to experience getting a glass-like finish. More power to them, but I'm glad it isn't me. <G>

When Imron first came out, it was said that if you can just barely smell the paint, then you are already 200% over exposed. That stuff is no joke. Lost a friend to liver disease that used to shoot Imron unprotected in his airport's hanger. I miss him quite a bit. He flew R/C too.


Ed Cregger

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

Time to paint

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

There are some of us who are masters with monokote (I am not one of them though!) It can almost compete with a good paint job. But I do remember salavating over some of Steve Helms' planes. If I remember he used to have a Japanese builder who did the work. They were works of art and......light. I think that is the age old dilemna. Can you use the paint to get the finish you want yet keep it light enough to perform. I personally prefer automotive paint with base coat/clear coat method and monocoat over the balsa flying surfaces.

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

If you want to check out some Japanese works of art go to the Narlar thread in the pattern forum. There is a link to Nishioka's web site about 10-12 posts down. He (or his company) is probably the premier model airplane builder (of pattern aircraft) in the world. He has supplied models to top fliers world wide. I think you need more than just a fat checkbook to purchase an airplane from him :D.

-Will B.

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

You most certainly can. Look at pattern airplanes and Formula Pylon racers. All with imaculate finishes and very light.

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

I wanted to check out that site Will mentioned ( http://www2.cnet.ne.jp/yamatoz/ )

I just thought I'd pass along this link which is translated to English using "Google Translate" ...
http://www.google.com/translate?u=ht...&hl=en&ie=UTF8

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

ed, i know you're right about the hanger rash thing, but that type of finish fascinates me. i recently acquired an ultrasport 60 with a monocote finish that has seen better days. i don't like it but it serves a purpose. i can place it/throw in the back seat, head to the field and not worry about dents and dings. i can buy rtf planes all day long like that. however, my personal builds i want a paint finish. i will probably make a crate for transporting a painted airplane.

david

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

-------------


I get the urge to paint once in a while, but then I lay down and take a nap and the urge is usually gone by the time that I wake up. <G>

Just kidding.

I have the Eureka kit of the Banshee. I saw the original (one of them) flown by the designer, Jim Martin, at Lakehurst NAS in the very early Seventies. I just can't imagine a Banshee (even mine) without that beautiful metallic silver paint on it. It just wouldn't be the same.

Like most old farts, I get discouraged by all of the once loved products being discontinued and replaced with new paint technologies. I'm at the point where the brain is about as full as it can get without exploding. I don't want to learn anything else - ever!

It costs a lot of money to get started in painting with automotive paint. At least it is expensive for someone that is only interested in painting one or two models in the foreseeable future. It would pay me to prep it and then hire someone that already has all of the stuff needed to just shoot it for me. But then, I wouldn't have done it...


Ed Cregger

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

Airplane with paint.

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

actually the warbird builders are using latex paint and a clear coat and coming out as light as monocote. what is monocote a square ft? 1 oz. or so. i saw a very detailed schedule where the guy tracked every speck of finish put on his warbird just to prove how light it can be. i just want a glossy finish that's all. that's why my current projects are headed for the paintbooth someday. 1/2 or 3/4 oz cloth with a water based polyurethane coating is extremely light (and seamless[X(])

david

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

somewhere on the pattern forum there was a link to a build thread in japanese where the guy builds a museum quality pattern plane on a 4' table in a tiny workroom. as best as i could tell the plane was finished in silk and then painted. the craftsmanship on that build and especially the finish is unequaled by anything i've ever seen online. i think those planes sell for $10,000 - 15,000 american dollars over there, so it is probably the guy's means of earning a living.

david

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

Actually, He was building an Addiction kit (by Star-Craft) for his personal use. There's a comment by another Japanese modeler that the 'workshop' is typical for most in Japan as is the level of craftsmanship - which is pretty impressive. The builder must have uploaded about 300+ photos of the 'build' - a project in itself :).
-Will

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

In the late 1980's, I remember seeing one of Steve Helms's Auroras up close and inside. The finish was immaculate and the fuse appeared to be made from a molded balsa shell. All of the inside parts were sanded smooth and coated so that the interior of the fuse was just as impressive as the outer finish. At the time, I think he said they cost around $2,300 to 2,800 each. Very professional!

I've been pricing out various paint systems, and now I see why film coverings and ARF's are so popular! I can buy the ARF Intruder for little more than it will cost me to paint the Tipo with some systems! Ed has a good point about planes accumulating hangar rash, etc. Still, we do this hobby/sport for a number of different reasons. Sometimes, the important thing is just to have something that flys, other times, there is a lot of satisfaction in the craftsmanship and individuality that goes into a good painted finish. I love to eat out. Sometimes I feel like fine dinining and wine, sometimes I feel like babecue and beer. Both are great, but different. One thing I don't like about film finishes is that the balsa surface is still soft. I almost feel like the plane gets dented every time I pick it up, unless I'm extremely careful. Also, the edges always start peeling up after a while. The auto enamel and epoxies make beautiful finishes, but seem difficult to touch up when dinged. Old fashion silk/dope was so easy to fix.

I think the bottom line is, results depend on the builder and his/her talent and experience with the materials being used.

Anyone used the Nelson Hobbies system? Sounds good, with water thinning and clean up. www.nelsonhobby.com

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

i couldn't agree more. if i put that much effort into a finish it would make sense to make a crate for it. i've seen them before. regardless of hanger rash, even if i get a ding on a painted plane i still dislike monocote.

david

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

MonoKote, soft balsa, finishe's, etc. Right, balsa can be dented easily. I have one mono-koted Intruder, and getting ready to monokote another, (finish before MK picture enclosed). I stripped both. You don't have to, but I use BalsaRite, which smells like and goes on like Dope. It gives the balsa strength, plus seals the wood, prior to MK. I also use the woodpecker for aeration, only on areas I do not glass.

In some cases, go a step further. This present Intruder, I glassed the canopy in, then the whole fusleage 3/4 oz. glass cloth and finishing resin. Did away with the original fin, took rudder off, made new out of 3/8" balsa, cloth and glass that also. I have a smooth glass shell, and will monokote over that. I will include a picture of the re-build of Intruder #1, glassed and MK.

This works for me, and why do all this work just on an ARF ? I will do more work on the glass fuselage and foam wings, but I believe in this system, and want the plane to look nice, as well as fly nice, altho I am not that good a flyer.

Vince

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

Beautiful work crankpin. I have heard of people Monokoting glass fuses before, but never tried it personally. I have used both Balsarite and clear dope in the past prior to Monokote and it does help with the finish hardness and covering adhesion. I wish the ARF manufacturers would do something similar.

Where do you buy 3/4 oz glass cloth and finishing resin nowadays? I don't see it advertised.

I did find two good sources for dope. Brodak www.brodak.com and Aircraft Spruce and Specialty www.aircraftspruce.com
Unlike the hobby shop dopes, Randolph dope is so thick that you must thin it almost 50% to spray, so a quart ends up being about 1/2 gal.

I'm going to check with some local auto paint suppliers today, and see what I can find out.

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

Let us know what you find out RC. I am almost ready to start with paint, etc., on the other fiber glas fuselage's and foam wing birds.
You can get the light glass cloth at Tower, Sig, etc. I will start glassing the leading edge of the wings, and the wingtips on these ARF's, as to give the tips a hard shell, the iron melts the fiberglass wingtips that are on the planes.

These are my last two ARF's for pattern stuff, too much nice stuff to work on.
Vince

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

I would be worried about weight build-up.


Ed Cregger

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

Aerospace Composite Products (ACP) is an excellent source for anything related to fiberglass or carbon fiber products.

http://www.acp-composites.com/

They have an extensive selection and online ordering.


Mark

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

if you go 1/2 - 3/4 oz cloth, water based polyurethane and latex paint all of the water will evaporate. it still has to be sealed against nitro but some of my practice work is extremely light (and no seams[X(]!)

david

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

here is a post from another site where the builder tracked weight gain: 9 oz's or so? compared to 4-5 ozs of monocote? doesn't look to bad.
david




I just finished covering my Top Flight GE P-51 (1/7th Scale). I wanted to know what type of weight gain I would get so I bought a gram scale before I started building. Below are my results after finishing.

I'd like to know how much total weight gain I would have gotten with other covering methods, especially monokote. If anyone can tell me I'd appreciate it.



P-51 Build Weights in Grams (1lb = 453 grams)

Note: Covered with .75oz FG cloth and Polycrylic Water Based Acrylic. Painted with Behr Metallic Silver Acrylic and Nelson Hobbies Water Based Polyurethane.

FUSELAGE:

Sanded Fuse Ready to Cover: 1069
Glassed with .75oz FG and Polycrylic WB: 1125
Bondo 907 and sanded: 1134
1 Coat Primer (unsanded) : 1272
Primer Sanded: 1180
Cockpit added: 1257
2 coats Behr Silver Acrylic: 1282
Paint (all colors) complete 5-6 coats WBPU: 1300
With clear coat (3 coats): 1319

Total gain from glassing and painting (fuselage): Approx. 170 grams

WING:

Sanded Wing Ready to Cover: 1035
Glassed and primer (sanded): 1083
1 coat Behr Silver Acrylic: 1090
All paint added (5-6 coats Nelson WBPU): 1128
Clear coats added (3-4 coats): 1152

Total gain from glassing and painting (wing): Approx. 117 grams

TOTAL GAIN FROM COVERING (ENTIRE AIRCRAFT): 287 Grams / .63 lbs

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

Radio South used to sell PPG automotive acrylic enamel in smaller quantities (pints). I always had to buy at least a quart of paint when puurchasing from an auto paint supplier - which lasts forever if you're just using it for trim colors!!

I accidently discovered the ability to monokote over fiberglass about 25 years ago when the paint I purchased (had mixed, in fact) didn't match the monokote. So I decided to try to monokote the cowl and wheel pants. At little tricky at first, but the results were quite good. I did clear coat to prevent monokote peeling. Lasted several years of flying. Didn't matter much on the final crash...[&o]

Painting 'light' isn't difficult, but it is very easy to spray on more paint than necessary. Just enough for uniform coverage. Good lighting is essential!!

-Will

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

i found a nice comparison chart showing the various weights of coverings: 1/2 fiberglass cloth seems to be one of the lightest coverings on the list. of course add paint but that won't increase the overall weight to much.

david


Covering and Painting Weights

Here's a table of, purported, covering weights originated by Fritz Bien, Charles River Radio Controllers, December 1996, with other contributors (August 1995 Flying Models article, Herm Perez, adding covering data, and Radio Control Soaring Exchange [RCSE] articles):

Covering Weights Chart Covering Color Weight [gm/sq ft] Comments
Monokote Red 5.8 circa 1996
Monokote Yellow 7.5 circa 1996
Monokote Metallic Platinum 6.0 circa 1996
Monokote Red 7.1 circa 1971
Monokote Black 6.0 circa 1985
Monokote White 7.3 circa 1990
Monokote Transparent Red 5.5 circa 1988
Monokote Orange Florescent 9.4 circa 1996
Ultracote Dark Red 8.5 circa 1996
Ultracote Cub Yellow 6.6 0.002 in thick
Ultracote Plus Pearl Yellow 8.2 0.0022 in thick
Ultracote Transparent Yellow 5.0 0.0015 in thick
Ultracote Transparent Yellow (lite) 3.4 0.001 in thick
Century 21 Fabric White 10.4 Heavy!
MicaFilm Yellow & Red 4.0 Needs Balsarite
MicaFilm Preprimed 3.9
MicaFilm Transparent White 2.2 Needs Balsarite
Sig Koverall White 4.3 Needs dope or paint
Sig Supercote Silver 4.8
Esaki Light Silk Clear 0.97 REALLY Hard to put on
5/8 fiberglass/paint clear 3.9 Needs filler and color
Japanese Tissue all colors 0.65 The lightest!
Nitrate Dope clear 1.0 2 coats/ 50-50 thin
Dope, gloss finish all colors 7.0 8 clear, 4 color, 1 clear coats
Dope, over silk all colors 2.0
Polyester Dress Lining All colors 4.2 Needs Balsarite & dope

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

all is well except it didn't post as a chart. perhaps the link would be better.

david

http://winshiprc.tripod.com/painting_techniques.htm

RE: Paint for Pattern Planes
 

I am currently using the System 3 paints on a senior Falcon. So far, I am very favorably impressed. The stuff is water thinning and cleaning, can be brushed, can be used on open fabric - in my case Koverall - and has very little odor, and , when applied in thin layers, will dry enough to sand or recoat in 15 minutes or thereabouts. If you need to really hurry things along, you can heat the painted surface up, or bake the part at low heat in an oven and thick layers will dry in a few minutes. Since it air dries, the thicker the layer the longer the dry time. I am getting the hang of sprayng - its a bit different as the "volatiles' are not like solvent-based paints. All I need to do is dial in the paint and air settings, use as little "thinner" as your gun will allow ( I am using a devilbliss touch-up gun at 50 psi) and seems like the more pattern air the better as it speeds the evaporation. As is common with spraying, keep the temp above 60 F. First went too thin/wet, then too dry. Should nail it on the next shoot this evening.

NN