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Arrogance at your field?

Old 08-18-2003, 04:51 PM
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SunShyne
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Default Arrogance at your field?

I was wondering if anyone has seen or had any exp with ths matter? I have finally settled on a home field here in the northern Virginia area after visiting many of the local fields. The number one thing I was tunred off by was the arrogance by some of the members towards us newbie flyers.

Specific example:

Last year we were invited guests at a field with our then trainers. The takeoff pattern was hairy becuase you had to avoid a power line. Being a newbie I pulled up to hard on takeoff and stalled it. It went over the pits and cam down hard. Besides my lg breaking all was well. Midday they had an informal meeting indicationg they felt many pilots were "out of control" or just unsafe. Seeing how I was 1 of 2 new guys who made a mistake that day it was geared towards me directly.

I find the older exp fliers have this built in frown toards the new guys. I saw it again last week when a new guy flew with his little electrtic plane accidently over the pits. No harm no foul but they had to say something under their breathe. Funny thing is these same guys are some of the crappiest fliers on the field and are the ones who are in the pits more with engine problems than the newbie who is out every 10 minutes flying.

You all get my point, any input on this or has anyone exp the same thing? Dont get me wrong the majority of my club members are awesome guys and I love flying with them but there always seems to be an exception

matt
Old 08-18-2003, 05:30 PM
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Borzak
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Default Arrogance at your field?

I'll take someone who works in the pits on an "engine problem" all day over someone who FLIES OVER the pits once.
Old 08-18-2003, 05:31 PM
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Dougboiler91
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Default Arrogance at your field?

Matt:

I hear what you are saying. I personally started flying at a different location due to this type of behavior by certain people. They are several individuals, that come down to this field without airplanes everytime I see them, yet as you indicated in your post, they are always critical of someone else who happens to be flying for whatever reason. And to top it all off they think they know it all. I usually try and let it go in one ear and out the other.

If you have different flying locations, visit other fields, and talk with their members. Maybe start flying somewhere else. I found another club in my area recently that has great members. I've recently joined, and the only down side is that I now have to drive across town, but have more fun this way.

Doug
Old 08-18-2003, 05:33 PM
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*Crash*Johnson*
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Default Arrogance at your field?

Me personally, I have nothing towards a new flyer.. What I do have a problem with is people in general flying over my head.
This is an exact example of why it is dangerous to fly over people. I can think of a thousand things that can go wrong with an airplane, and if you are over people when they do go wrong someone will get hurt.
I think this is why they got an attitude, not really cause you are new to flying. Everyone had to start somewhere.
Old 08-18-2003, 05:37 PM
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MikeL
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Default Arrogance at your field?

The situations you described warrant some grumbling, I think. Flying over the pits is generally a no-no, and when a new guy does it while barely in control of his model it makes me very uncomfortable. It's not arrogance--it's merely concern for my safety and the safety of my property.
Old 08-18-2003, 05:53 PM
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SunShyne
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Default Arrogance at your field?

I have to agree with the safety factor as I like a safe environment but my point is the arrogance factor. How many times do teenageers wreck their cars or have fender benders in the process of becoming good drivers? Point is mistakes have to be tolerated to a cetain degree and seniors MUST be willing to be teachers and guides, not become my daddy and explain to me what I did was wrong. Just last week a new member who is a senior member at another field was explaining to me the guest rules etc when he himself has never been to 1 meeting and wasnt even flying that day but was hiding under the canopy shooting the breeze. Its this behaviour of being talked down to and the hollier than tho that gets my blood boiling.
Old 08-18-2003, 05:54 PM
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SunShyne
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Default Arrogance at your field?

Originally posted by Borzak
I'll take someone who works in the pits on an "engine problem" all day over someone who FLIES OVER the pits once.
you missed my point but thats ok
Old 08-18-2003, 05:58 PM
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*Crash*Johnson*
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Default Arrogance at your field?

I believe they are 2 seperate issues...

1) The Arrogance in general is not acceptable. People who walk around thinking they are Holier than tho just plain suck.

2) The flying over pits is not acceptable. Berating people who do is acceptable in my opinion. Although I am not there to hear them when they do it I think they are trying to make you understand the danger involved.

Now if you were 500 feet away and did a loop and they came down on you then I'd start looking for a new field...
Old 08-18-2003, 05:59 PM
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MinnFlyer
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Default Arrogance at your field?

Flying over the pits is a no no.

It just makes sense, for safety's sake.

However, accidents happen... That's why they're called accidents.

Anyone can get into trouble, or make a little mistake and accidentally fly over the pits. If it happens, a nice loud "I'm sorry!... The wind got me!" (or whatever). And it should be overlooked.

But then you have your chronic complainers...

I recall a time when a guest of mine was flying at my field, he was a good flier, but he was having sever radio problems. His plane wandered over the pits, and someone yelled out to him "HEY! NO FLYING OVER THE PITTS!"

I said to this person, "He's in trouble!", meaning he's having radio trouble.

The guy said, "You think he's having trouble now? Wait and see what happens if he flies over the pits again!"

His Plane left the pit area, but as he was trying desperately to get it back down, it went over the pits again.

"Hey! this Jerk yells, "I told you about flying over the pits!" and then promptly tells me that my guest is not welcome at our field anymore, and that I am banned for a week for bringing him.

I laughed right in this guy's face (he really liked that). Fortunately, the Club Pres was there and saw the whole thing, and set this guy straight.

But the moral is: there are some people out there who you just can't please.
Old 08-18-2003, 06:00 PM
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SunShyne
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Default Arrogance at your field?

yes the main issue in question is the arrogance, safety issues go without saying. Belittling people becuase of a mistake is another. Thats my point
Old 08-18-2003, 06:03 PM
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Default Arrogance at your field?

I understand your position. You feel like an outcast because of a mistake. Mistakes aside, you know you did wrong. Was anyone there (an instructor) at the time of these incidents? If not, I think both the newbie and the club are at fault. Just work with these guys if you want to stay there and gain some flying skills to pass to someone else. If you can show willingness to learn from your mistakes, they have very little to say. However, flying over the pits is something they do have a right to say something about.
We have a couple of guys at our field that when they fly, everyone watches.
Old 08-18-2003, 06:11 PM
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Goinstraightup
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Default Arrogance at your field?

Since a student and myself almost got hit last week (I have a thread on it in the Crash Forum), I tend to side with the person doing the correcting. Our AMA dues largely go toward insurance. We don't want to do anything to ruin our coverage, or make it more expensive.
Old 08-18-2003, 06:14 PM
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*Crash*Johnson*
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Default Arrogance at your field?

so in other words MinnFlyer, it isnt what you say but how you say it?
Old 08-18-2003, 06:15 PM
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Default Arrogance at your field?

the first few times i went to the field almost everyone had a frown on their face whenever they looked at me and they didnt say hi or anything. i wasnt doing anything wrong, i was just new and a lot younger than any of them. well gradually i meet most of them and now, a couple of months later, theyre all my friends and theyre fun to talk to and everything. im just saying give it time and you'll all be friends with each other
Old 08-18-2003, 06:20 PM
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Default Arrogance at your field?

Their at fault and should not complain. They invited you, and they knew your where inexperienced, they should have been giving you check rides with a buddy cord of at least talking you through the pattern before setting you lose on your own.

As far as guys saying BAD things about ONE flyover, they need to chill. There ARE risks and accidents WILL happen. It is one thing to walk up and try to investigate to why the flyover occured, it is another to go up an chew out the pilot or worse, just bad mouth him and ignor him. They do have a right for the constant violator and should again, force the violator to accept disciplinary action, not just sit back a bad mouth and outcast him as some that you described will do.

I see a lot of this in this hobby too since I travel a lot. It is why RC has such a reputation of being full of arrogant rich SOBs.
Old 08-18-2003, 06:20 PM
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Default Arrogance at your field?

I think most flying fields are microcosms of life just the same as any other hobby/ activity/ sport. We have our own language, customs and "normal" behavoirs. In life you run into nice people and jerks in the same ratios as you do at the field.

Whenever I do something stupid at the field I usually tend to be defensive at first if someone points it out. I also don't hesitate to to comment when someone does something unsafe as it is my right but I always try to remember how I react and temper my statements to get the point across to a more receptive listener.

I find the newbies often welcome constructive critisim as they want to learn the local customs to be able to fit in and not get singled out for being unsafe.

If you landed in the pits, I would be very concerned. If you took my saying something about it personally, good. Learn from it and move on.
Old 08-18-2003, 06:24 PM
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SunShyne
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Default Arrogance at your field?

well we tried to stay, the club pres is nice but many members have the fear of the young guys mentaility. I dont know what it is or how to explain it. Not just with me, I have seen with other new members etc. We felt we were being singled out unfairly and tried to hang in there until we found a new field where most the guys are nice to hang with are even helpful in offering assistance with any problems that might arise.

getting back the safety issue that keeps popping up I used that as an example. The attitude I find is not strictly associated with a flying mistake but one that is general in presence among certain members. Almost like a disdain from them. I also have noticed this to be prevelant among the "older" crowd that has their own clique. Dont take that the wrong way, many of the guys I fly with and have laughs with are twice my age so dont take it offensively.
Old 08-18-2003, 06:39 PM
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jneesy
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Default Arrogance at your field?

we have the scale police a couple of old timers that never fly that constantly complain about every aircraft brught out;
"that pilot is in the wrong seat "
"a cub cant do that"
"those wheels aren't scale"
its gotten to the point they just get called loiterers.
Old 08-18-2003, 06:41 PM
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Gordon Mc
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Default Arrogance at your field?

Originally posted by MinnFlyer
I recall a time when a guest of mine was flying at my field, he was a good flier, but he was having sever radio problems. His plane wandered over the pits, and someone yelled out to him "HEY! NO FLYING OVER THE PITTS!"

I said to this person, "He's in trouble!", meaning he's having radio trouble.

The guy said, "You think he's having trouble now? Wait and see what happens if he flies over the pits again!"

His Plane left the pit area, but as he was trying desperately to get it back down, it went over the pits again.

"Hey! this Jerk yells, "I told you about flying over the pits!" and then promptly tells me that my guest is not welcome at our field anymore, and that I am banned for a week for bringing him.
Well - just to offer a counterpoint....

It is of course hard to judge without being there to see what happened, but if the aircraft was that out of control that he flew over the pits not just once, but twice, then perhaps the pilot should have just sacrificed the aircraft after he got it clear of the pits the first time, rather than coming back for another pass at hitting someone.

It just seems to me that sometime we pilots get tunnel vision and can think of nothing but "try to save the aircraft at all costs", without regard to the bystanders.

When you stress level goes up, this tunnel vision can happen to the best piolts, but that's where a good caller can help ... I seem to remember reading about an incident a while ago where Chip Hyde had a mid-air and fought the aircraft back under a semblance of control, trying to get it back to the runway - fortunately his caller had the presence of mind to warn him when he was getting close to the crowd line, and so Chip took his warning to heart and just put the aircraft in without further delay.

Models can be usually be replaced a bit easier than those soft pink bodies in the pits can. It may be hard to remember that when flying your pride & joy, but we've gotta try.

Back to the original point of this thread - the concern for safety was probably valid, but the way in which it that concern was handled could probably stand some improvement.

Gordon
Old 08-18-2003, 06:53 PM
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SunShyne
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Default Arrogance at your field?

I agree with you Gordon but the arrognce thing goes deeper than concerns with safety. I see it in the pits with no planes in the air.
Old 08-18-2003, 07:18 PM
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SunShyne
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Default Arrogance at your field?

Originally posted by jneesy
we have the scale police a couple of old timers that never fly that constantly complain about every aircraft brught out;
"that pilot is in the wrong seat "
"a cub cant do that"
"those wheels aren't scale"
its gotten to the point they just get called loiterers.
hehe I am a fan of a good looking scale plane doing a scale flight but I agree with you. The loiterers at many of fields I have visited are a source of the anxiety that they love to inflict on new pilots or any pilot for that matter
Old 08-18-2003, 07:22 PM
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JohnW
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Default Arrogance at your field?

arrogance: a feeling of or an impression of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or presumptuous claims.

If I state that pilots are "out of control" or unsafe and you were one of the pilots that was "out of control", then yes, the statement is directed at you. I don't see how this in a of itself is arrogance. Even if by the actually words used and tone of voice it is perceived as arrogance, you still were out of control over the pits.

Yes, we all know better and yes we all have probably been over the pits; however, that still doesn't excuse the activity.

Nothing scares me more than out of control planes heading for the pits. When I see it done, I often will yell out and ask if the pilot needs help. If they say "yes" I'll be Johnny on the spot to help them. If they say no then I bellow out to get that plane back where it belongs. If they do it twice in one flight my tone will change to get that %^$&% plane back where it belongs and land NOW. Arrogance or safety minded? What if I say nothing and someone is injured?
Old 08-18-2003, 07:36 PM
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SunShyne
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Default Arrogance at your field?

agree with you on some terms but my point again is NOT the safety issue that has become this thread. Its the percieved arrogance that pollutes many fields in this area. The lack of being helpful to new guuys or more exp fliers. Many of you have mixed the thought of directing a lost/porr flier with what my point is.

arrogance: a feeling of or an impression of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or presumptuous claims.

yes that defiintion is ecatly the bahviour I have seen that does 2 things:

1. discourages the person on the receiving end
2. leaves a bad tatse with them and the field they are at

The incident I had was over a year ago and now when I see it I kindly and gently help the poilot out of the area if he is new and help him better understand how he got there in the 1st place. I have seen many people do likewise and it helps the new guy along without belittling him.

Same guy who loves to yell at the new guys becuase hes worried about safety is out flying an unstable aircraft that deadsticks more than I can count at all attitudes and positions becuase he cant tune his engine in. My point is becuase you have been flying longer does not make you a better poilot nor does it discount the fact that they themselves cant get caught in a situation that result in damage or worse.

You cannot tell me when the exp pilot that occasonally cuts it too close to the pits or actually flies over the pits by accident has been lectured? I think not. I speak from exp as I have seen it over and over. The guy flying the 35% who accidently got it bent over the pits is excused becuase "he knows what he is doing" I watched him fly his little park flyer RIGHT OVER THE PITS and not a person said anything to him. Now the kid with the Aerobird who flys on the far end of the pits by accident gets the lecture and the under the breath grumblngs from the "loiterers".

Please comment on the topic and not safety issues as that is a non issue as we all know. Im trying to understand and discuss not go into "lecture the new guy for his pits fly over". I simply used that as an example of the attitude displayed.

thanks

matt
Old 08-18-2003, 07:39 PM
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BasinBum
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Default Arrogance at your field?

We have a group of old guys that meet at the field every morning. Fortunatly they don't act like the scale police. They have been at the field for the last thirty years and most don't have the eyes or coordination to fly anymore. They still enjoy the company and maybe smelling nitro but we all figure that might be us someday.

Diablo, your fortunate that you can choose to fly at a differant field as I'm sure some fields do have a certain personality from the regulars.
Old 08-18-2003, 07:49 PM
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SunShyne
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Default Arrogance at your field?

Originally posted by BasinBum
We have a group of old guys that meet at the field every morning. Fortunatly they don't act like the scale police. They have been at the field for the last thirty years and most don't have the eyes or coordination to fly anymore. They still enjoy the company and maybe smelling nitro but we all figure that might be us someday.

Diablo, your fortunate that you can choose to fly at a differant field as I'm sure some fields do have a certain personality from the regulars.
It is nice having several to choose from. Very few in my opinion are "great fields" as real estate comes at a premiuim in the northern virginia area. Only field that had nice guys and an incredible flying area is almost an hour from me and not worth the trip. My current home field is more than nice plus the crew there is outstanding. We have been lucky to find this field and organization.

No one is perfect but it can be diffucult frinding the right environment to fly in that suites you.

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